Why aren't Flying spells Evocation spells?

[Lysander]

Movement is caused by a force. Yet Fly and Levitate are both transmutation spells. Unless the objects are flying because their mass is being altered shouldn't flying fall in the Evocation school?

[The Rose Dragon]

Buff spells are usually Transmutation, rather than Evocation. Some of them are Enchantment, but they are mostly Transmutation.

[Gorbash]

A person under the effect of fly spell is given the ability of self-propelled flight, ie its DNA (or whatever) is transmuted to be able to work that way. That's how I see it.

[Sliver]

Like... Jets of fire come out of their feet so they can fly? Flying is hardly related to mass anyway, dragonst shouldn't really do it anyway, and to Levitate by normal explanation, you have to weight less then air.. No, it might count as transmutation because it changes your properties, like being able to fly. Its a magical change that has no effect on your body properties, just how it works with the world.

Anyway, there are plenty of spells that shouldn't be in the school they are in..

[Fluffles]

... You're asking about the logic of magic of all things?

[ocdscale]

Transmutation doesn't make sense, it's not as if the Fly spell (or any of its equivalents) slaps a thruster on your body.
Evocation isn't perfect either for the same reason, you're not constantly applying force in order to keep the person above ground (maybe for levitate?).

[Edit: Durr, forget what I said about Enchantment]

[The Rose Dragon]

... You're asking about the logic of WotC of all things?

Fixed it for you.

[Talya]

Enchantment is the best fit for me. You're adding on a magical effect to their body that gives them the power to fly.

Wouldn't that be an abjuration, where most of the other buff-spells are?

[The Rose Dragon]

Wouldn't that be an abjuration, where most of the other buff-spells are?

What are you abjuring? The ground?

[Another_Poet]

I think it's fair to say that gaining or losing a Su ability is an act of transmutation.

[Kylarra]

What are you abjuring? The ground?

I DISBELIEVE THE AIR GRAVITY

[Mando Knight]

Movement is caused by a force. Yet Fly and Levitate are both transmutation spells. Unless the objects are flying because their mass is being altered shouldn't flying fall in the Evocation school?

Evocation is the channeling of (evoking) the elements to cause an effect. Transmutation changes (transmutes) the target object to alter its physical state. Fly and similar spells change the object to allow it to artificially remain aloft. It changes how the object reacts to the natural, physical law of gravity. Thus, transmutation.

Of course, that would be if the schools of magic were fully and strictly logical.

[Gorbash]

Enchantment is the best fit for me. You're adding on a magical effect to their body that gives them the power to fly.

Ungh, this again. Enchantment is only influencing other people's minds, Enhancement is something else. You don't enchant a sword to give it flaming property you enhance it. One D&D designer did an article on this, but for the life of me, I can't remember which one.

[Sliver]

... You're asking about the logic of magic of all things?

I disagree with that.. While magic is unknown to us, WotC defined it into schools, and those who use it, except those that are just gifted or devoted, there are those who research it. Thus, it should be concluded that magic works in some kind of logical way, unless you say all wizards are madman that find logic where is none.

We understand magic? No. Magic works in a logical way inside its own neat 'schools', as defined by WotC? Nope.

I agree with The Rose Dragon.. WotC is here the one that lacks logic.

[Random832]

Ungh, this again. Enchantment is only influencing other people's minds, Enhancement is something else. You don't enchant a sword to give it flaming property you enhance it. One D&D designer did an article on this, but for the life of me, I can't remember which one.

http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfile...rminology.html

[JeenLeen]

Doesn't the Fly spell state that you grow wings? I see that the d20srd does not state that, but I thought somewhere I read fluff on the spell saying you grow wings (which led to some argument about whether Fly interfered with clothes one was wearing.)
Maybe I'm thinking of a different spell or a specific creature or class' Sp, Su, or Ex version of 'Fly'.

But in general, as others had said, it's not manipulating the forces of gravity around the target, it is transmuting them into a being that can fly. Maybe it transmutes one into a creature that is not subject to gravity, but that is still a change of the creature, not the force itself.

[Optimystik]

WotC's problem isn't so much their lack of logic, as their failure to apply it completely enough. Dividing magic into schools is perfectly reasonable fluff. Restricting certain effects to those schools mechanically is not, because with enough rationalization almost any effect can be achieved by any school.

WotC HAS followed this train of logic before, but only with one school - Illusion, which can do almost anything the other schools can. They got lazy and left it at that, but a few moment's thought

Take this thread's topic for instance, flight. The wizard lifts himself off the ground. Almost every school should be able to do it in some way. Observe:

Transmutation: The wizard alters his DNA to give himself the supernatural ability of flight.
Evocation: The wizard generates lift by expelling some force against the ground in some way (boosters, wind, you name it.)
Conjuration: The wizard transports his molecules vertically in a series of instantaneous short-range teleports, swapping his with the air above him at varying speeds to control ascent, descent, and hovering. Alternatively, get something else to do your flying for you.
Illusion: Shadow version of booster method (intentionally failing Will save if necessary.)
Necromancy: The wizard suffuses himself with negative energy, becoming ghostly and incorporeal, then walks on the air.
Abjuration: In order - Abjure the ground, then the layer of air above it, then the layer of air above that...
Divination:KNOW you're in the sky so completely that the universe rearranges itself to accommodate you.

The difference should not lie in which school can achieve what, but in the amount of energy required from the caster for each method. Swapping out selected bits of DNA is child's play for a Transmuter. Generating and controlling the energy to lift oneself is probably a little harder for an Evoker to pull off, and even more difficult for an Illusionist. Rapid and continuous short-range teleportation sounds even more tricky, and becoming a ghost without dying is probably even harder. So while you should be able to fly with any specialization, the spells required to do so will be at different levels; thus it will be easier for a Transmuter to fly than an Evoker, who in turn fiinds it easier than a Diviner, etc.

[ericgrau]

You are changing the person to give him the ability to fly, that's transmutation. I could see this argument being used to make telekinesis evocation, but alas it is also transmutation. Evocation "force" effects tend to actually be force field effects, not actually moving something. FWIW reverse gravity is also transmutation.

[Optimystik]

Evocation "force" effects tend to actually be force field effects, not actually moving something.

Bigsby and Tenser would disagree with you.

[Lysander]

You are changing the person to give him the ability to fly, that's transmutation. I could see this argument being used to make telekinesis evocation, but alas it is also transmutation. Evocation "force" effects tend to actually be force field effects, not actually moving something. FWIW reverse gravity is also transmutation.

I suppose that makes sense, but feels kind of indirect. I mean, by the same logic you could say that Fire Shield should be a transmutation spell because it transforms you into a creature wreathed with flames.

[Renegade Paladin]

Ungh, this again. Enchantment is only influencing other people's minds, Enhancement is something else. You don't enchant a sword to give it flaming property you enhance it. One D&D designer did an article on this, but for the life of me, I can't remember which one.

Sean Reynolds.

[Paulus]

I think it's more to do with using the force of your own mind and will to pick you up and move you around. Like telekinesis. Or...

It could be magic, as an assumed relevant subatomic particle, would then operate and or affect the gravitational pull of even sections per unit and thereby lessen atomic mass through substitution, either by supplementing or deteriorating electron and neutrons and deriving the buoyancy of previously affect particles outside the overall mass thereby creating a constant uplift of denser matter above to below and propelling the overall object or objects into accelerated movement resembling flight- however in and of itself this gravitational switcheroo is not flight as we would term it, as there is no air nor drag nor pull to the overall generation of force aside from constant 'flotation' provided by the magic particles in which every direction is thus controlled by the user's mind, hence concentration, and in later terms and automatic process of self actualized constant motion in a general aura of propelled motion that lasts as long as the person is able to fulfill the fuel needed by the spell, of course which is energy which can neither be consumed nor destroyed, and thus provides the feedback loop if you will that provides the necessary directional control while allowing a constant lessening of mass in a spherical localized orientation that if we were to actually classify it, would seem more of an aura as opposed to a bubble, which is why such a force does not actually interfere with outside substances such as far denser materials like rock and flesh, which accounts for why the affect does not allow you to float through objects heaver then air, or water, etc.

The other theory, I think, has more to do with heating and cooling around the body and thus creating one's own thermals and vortex-ial updrafts, but this is yet to be tested and argued heavily upon as to why such a 'system' is not daunted by being near fire- such as dragon breath- or cold air -such as dragon breath-. Still, not many Dragons have come forward to allow testing of this hypothesis and not many in the magical community are willing to test the theory themselves with outside variables, i.e. "wild" dragons.

Still, Magience marches on!

[Mastikator]

Flight and levitation could be interpreted to use force, like imposing hand, but invisible and makes you fly.

This would be a good thing IMO since evoc is an underpowered school and transmutation is an overpowered one.

[oxybe]

why no evocation flying spells?

the wizards in charge of spell creation have yet to perfect the D&D equivalent of a "rocket jump" that doesn't cause the caster to splatter in a horrible mess.

they would have one of the munchkins try it out, but they're too busy ascending to Pun-Pun.

[nightwyrm]

Magic schools in D&D doesn't make that much sense, but you can't really blame WotC for this one. A lot of the spells are where they are because they were there before 3e. Transmutation's predecessor was Alteration which was really the catch all school back then and included spells that didn't fit into other schools or spells that just "altered" something (hence why disintegration is in transmutation today). As for fly, you were "altered" from not being able to fly to being able to fly.

In a way, all magic could fit in the abjuration school if you say:
I reject abjure your reality and substitute my own.

[Sliver]

In a way, all magic could fit in the abjuration school if you say:
I reject abjure your reality and substitute my own.

The magic school of rejection! Reject Reality is like a renamed Wish..

[Keld Denar]

For a little cross genre examination, look at something like X-Men. There are lots of flying characters in the X-Men universe, but most of the them fly through different means. Magneto flies because he uses electromagnetic repulsion. Storm flies because she controls air currents that buffet her body to keep it aloft. Jean flies because she can Tek herself to hold herself aloft. Forgive me if these aren't 100% accurate, I'm not the hugest X-Men geek, just going by what I remember from the cartoon!

From the SRD:

Independent Research
A wizard also can research a spell independently, duplicating an existing spell or creating an entirely new one.

There are rules for independant spell research. If your evoker who banned transmutation REALLY wants to fly, he could research an independant spell that grants flight through some means other than transmutation. It should be either equal in power or slightly worse, but not significantly worse. If equal in power, care by the DM should be taken that the character is not trying to offset the penalty of specialization by throwing enough time/money at it. A spell or 2 won't break things, but for a spell as nearly universal as Fly, it should be possible.

[Sliver]

For a little cross genre examination, look at something like X-Men. There are lots of flying characters in the X-Men universe, but most of the them fly through different means. Magneto flies because he uses electromagnetic repulsion. Storm flies because she controls air currents that buffet her body to keep it aloft. Jean flies because she can Tek herself to hold herself aloft.

From the SRD:

There are rules for independant spell research. If your evoker who banned transmutation REALLY wants to fly, he could research an independant spell that grants flight through some means other than transmutation. It should be either equal in power or slightly worse, but not significantly worse. If equal in power, care by the DM should be taken that the character is not trying to ofset the penalty of specialization by throwing enough time/money at it. A spell or 2 won't break things, but for a spell as nearly universal as Fly, it should be possible.

I donno.. Spending time and money should often be enough for such things, as long as they are reasonable. Making spells like "Abjur Time" and "Reject Life" or "I Believe Know I Can Fly" might be a bit.. wierd.. But an evoker getting flight..
Sure it needs DM approval but as long as your DM doesn't get mad at you for making a green fireball, it will probably get approved without much problems, most of the time.

[Keld Denar]

You are simultaneously agreeing and disagreeing with me at the same time (simultaneously). What are you saying?

I just said that for some cases, a wizard should be able to create cross-school spells, but that it should not be allowed for all cases, and there should be some opportunity cost involved (time, money, spell quality, spell level, availability, etc) to balance it.

Thats very different from making your fireball green, which is actually allowed in the rules (see spell effect customization, and the Spell Thematics feat).

[Sliver]

You are simultaneously agreeing and disagreeing with me at the same time (simultaneously). What are you saying?

Yeah.. I.. Am not really sure..

I'm just saying that even that cost is not really balancing a lot.. Even if it is an attempt to offset the penalty of blocking some schools, if used reasonably, there shouldn't be always a cost to 'balance it out'. An evoker making their own version of flight? sounds ok.. A diviner making a flight 'by knowledge'? Yeah that would cost something..