[3.5]Can your Schismed mind Overchannel?

[Emperor Tippy]

If you manifest the psion power Schism, can that mind make use of the feat Overchannel (assuming that you have Overchannel as one of your feats)?

And how does that interact with the bolded part of the following:

Your second mind can manifest powers using your power point reserve, but only as if your manifester level were six lower than it is.

Oh, if you know of any items that can boost ML (like the orange ioun stone does for CL), please let me know.

[ex cathedra]

Assuming full transparency, would an Orange Ioun Stone not raise your ML? My memory regarding transparency rules might be off, though.

[Myrmex]

While it doesn't actually boost ML, the Torc of Power reduces manifesting cost by 1.

Other than that, I don't know of anything.

[Gralamin]

If you manifest the psion power Schism, can that mind make use of the feat Overchannel (assuming that you have Overchannel as one of your feats)?

And how does that interact with the bolded part of the following:


Oh, if you know of any items that can boost ML (like the orange ioun stone does for CL), please let me know.

By RAW, I am unsure, leaning towards yes. But as a DM (As if that matters) I'd rule no, since overchannel doesn't seem like a purely mental action.

[Milskidasith]

All items that increase CL in general (IE do not specify arcane or divine) increase your CL.

As for this issue... what I'd rule is this. Overchannel lets you go above your ML temporarily, but it won't let you overchannel schism to have your schismed mind have a higher CL for the entire duration. Once you finish using overchannel your ML is drops back to normal, so your schism level drops back down (and it can't ever manifest when you are actually manifesting the power, so overchannel is worthless). As for items, since your ML stays up (unless the item runs out) both you and your schismed part get the benefits.

EDIT: Also, overchannel is a purely mental action; all psionic powers and metapsionics are.

[Flickerdart]

I don't see why not. Even if you read it as "your Schismed mind's ML is 6 below yours no matter what" raising your own ML should raise the Schism's ML as well. So Overchanneling for, say, 3 would make your ML=your level+3, and your Schism's your level-3.

Practiced Manifester's where that gets fun. I'd say the +4 is applied after the -6 (since it's always there, just normally capped by your HD). I may, however, be wrong...

[Emperor Tippy]

If Practiced Manifestor worked on Schism like that it would be great, but alas I fear most DM's wouldn't allow it.

Hmm, I suppose I could just go with an Orange Ioun Stone.

[Milskidasith]

Actually, your schismed mind has no hit dice, so Practised Manifester does nothing to it by RAW. ;)

[Samb]

If Practiced Manifestor worked on Schism like that it would be great, but alas I fear most DM's wouldn't allow it.

Hmm, I suppose I could just go with an Orange Ioun Stone.

Umm practised manifester does work on a schismed mind. You HD is your physical body which is shared by your real mind and your schismed mind. You did not lose HD for manifesting schism, you only lose ML so according to RAW it makes schismed -2 ML.

[Milskidasith]

Umm practised manifester does work on a schismed mind. You HD is your physical body which is shared by your real mind and your schismed mind. You did not lose HD for manifesting schism, you only lose ML so according to RAW it makes schismed -2 ML.

Except for the fact that that A: breaks the condition of it being six below your manifester level no matter what and B: the schismed mind doesn't have any hit points of its own.

[Samb]

Except for the fact that that A: breaks the condition of it being six below your manifester level no matter what and B: the schismed mind doesn't have any hit points of its own.

Your mind splits into two independent parts. Each part functions in complete autonomy, like two characters in one body. Your new “second mind” does not control your body physically but is free to take one standard action in each round if the action is purely mental (such as manifesting a power) in the same round you take your normal actions.

The lose of ML from schism is no different from the lose of ML from multiclassing I don't see where you got the impression that it was somehow different or absolute.
Your HD is your HD again no where does it state schism has no HD. Practised manifester states very simply that it raises your ML by 4 or up to your HD. Hence, it would apply when you multiclass/PrC, and when you are under schism.

[Samb]

And to answer the OP: yes you can use overchannel/wild surge to boost you ML just like any other time. Nothing in schism says you can't. Certain powers/feats specifically say "will not work with schism" like temporal acceleration and fission. Overchannel and wild surge and not among them.

[Milskidasith]

Still doesn't work, Samb.

Your second mind can manifest powers using your power point reserve, but only as if your manifester level were six lower than it is. Your second mind doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity when manifesting a power, because doing so doesn’t distract your primary mind.

Notice how it says it only works if your manifester level is six lower than it is. Now let's do the math; if your ML is, say, 9, and you take practiced manifester so you can get a +4 to your ML with schism, it's at 7. That isn't six lower than your actual ML, which, being equal to your HD, is still nine, so it doesn't work and you have to cast at ML 3 anyway. So even if it did actually increase your ML... you can't actually manifest powers at that level.

Also, to look at it from another way around, Practiced manifeter increases your ML by up to 4, but when you are full manifesting, it doesn't do anything, so schism is still -4 of that modified total. Either way it leads to the same result; your ML is still going to be -6, because Practiced manifester can't increase your actual ML, so you can't manifest at that high level.

[Samb]

You are putting the parameter "absolutly" -6 ML yourself. No where does it state that you cannot apply practised manifester or overchanel. You listed a quote but I do not see where it says you cannot gain MLs from elsewhere or that they don't apply once you use them.

Schism is a highly balanced power. Temporal acceleration specifically states it does not effect schismed minds. It specifically says schism doesn't work with fission either. Schism also states that it doesn't work with haste too. There are more but that is just off the top of my head. Point being: if it shouldn't work for schism it will be stated. Overchannel and practised manifester never excluded schism, hence it would work.

[Milskidasith]

You are putting the parameter "absolutly" -6 ML yourself. No where does it state that you cannot apply practised manifester or overchanel. You listed a quote but I do not see where it says you cannot gain MLs from elsewhere or that they don't apply once you use them.

Schism is a highly balanced power. Temporal acceleration specifically states it does not effect schismed minds. It specifically says schism doesn't work with fission either. Schism also states that it doesn't work with haste too. There are more but that is just off the top of my head. Point being: if it shouldn't work for schism it will be stated. Overchannel and practised manifester never excluded schism, hence it would work.

Did you not see the phrase "only?" Practiced manifester works on schism, I even said that. You didn't read the reason why you can't use it, though. You can only manifest powers with schism as if your ML was six lower than it is for your non schismed mind. With Practiced manifester, it is two lower, so you still have to voluntarily manifest four levels lower than with practiced manifester, bringing you back to -6. I'm not saying Practiced Manifester can't work. In theory, it can bring your ML up to -2 of what it is. But since your normal ML is still the same, you can't actually use that ML.

It's in the description of the power itself; you have to manifest at six levels below your actual power level. Just to show you how that works in equation form:

Where X = your ML and Y = your Schism ML...

What it has to equal to, according to the bolded text I quoted: Y = X-6

With practiced manifester: Y = X-2

Which means that X-2 would have to = X-6, which is impossible. It doesn't work unless you voluntarily drop your ML by 4 to manifest powers, which means that it gets you no benefit.

As for specifically banning things: Magic Missile does not specifically state you can't get Divine Rank 30 when casting it, so you do. See how that works? Hell, that's even more likely than this, because at least there isn't any text that actually says it doesn't work, while there is in schism.

[Alex112524]

You can only manifest powers with schism as if your ML was six lower than it is for your non schismed mind.

Well, technically it says "Your second mind can manifest powers using your power point reserve, but only as if your manifester level were six lower than it is.", I think it works a little differently than you do. Let me give an example to help clarify how I think they would interact. Lets say you have a standard human Psion 10 with practiced manifester (going for simplicity here). Since your manifester level is already 10, practiced manifester does nothing, however, if you treat your manifester level as if it was six lower than it really is, then practiced manifester kicks in. Schism never says you have to manifest as if your manifester level was six lower than your non-schismed mind, only that your schismed mind has to treat your manifester level as if it was six lower, and for that character if his manifester level was 6 lower than it really was, but with the same hit dice, practiced manifester would raise it by 4, so I don't see why it wouldn't work for a schismed mind.

[Milskidasith]

Well, technically it says "Your second mind can manifest powers using your power point reserve, but only as if your manifester level were six lower than it is.", I think it works a little differently than you do. Let me give an example to help clarify how I think they would interact. Lets say you have a standard human Psion 10 with practiced manifester (going for simplicity here). Since your manifester level is already 10, practiced manifester does nothing, however, if you treat your manifester level as if it was six lower than it really is, then practiced manifester kicks in. Schism never says you have to manifest as if your manifester level was six lower than your non-schismed mind, only that your schismed mind has to treat your manifester level as if it was six lower, and for that character if his manifester level was 6 lower than it really was, but with the same hit dice, practiced manifester would raise it by 4, so I don't see why it wouldn't work for a schismed mind.

Actually, it is specific that you have to manifest as if it was six lower than it was, which is why it doesn't work. Your ML is only two under what it is with practiced manifester if it affects the schismed mind, so it still doesn't work.

[sofawall]

Your HD is your HD again no where does it state schism has no HD. Practised manifester states very simply that it raises your ML by 4 or up to your HD. Hence, it would apply when you multiclass/PrC, and when you are under schism.

Your quote itself sort of goes against you. Two characters sharing the same body. Hit Dice are part of Character Level. Therefore, Hit Dice seem to be oart of character, not body.

Also, Fiend of Possession. You don't suddenly gain/lose HD when possessing, do you? No.

EDIT: To make it clear, I subscribe to the view: Yes, it works, but since a Schismed mind has no HD, it does nothing.

[Myrmex]

What if you just had your Schism manifest Synchronicity?

[Claudius Maximus]

This thread suffers from a marked lack of proper use of the subjunctive mood.

On topic, I take the view that Practiced manifester does not increase the ML of a schismed mind. If a 10th level Psion with the feat manifests Schism, its manifester level is set as 6 below his. His ML is 10, so the Schism has a ML of 4. Practiced Manifester does not increase this, as a Schism mind does not have any HD.

[Toliudar]

My interpretation aligns with Claudius'. Whenever I've seen Schism in play (only 2 or 3 games, admittedly), my reaction has never been "Wow, if only there were some way to make this ability really useful." It's plenty interesting and powerful as is.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

I want to side with sofawall's perspective, but I can't. Stupid wording:

Your second mind can manifest powers using your power point reserve, but only as if your manifester level were six lower than it is.

[Myrmex]

What if you just had your Schism manifest Synchronicity?

Cause that would give you another action without the -6 ML, right?

[Bogardan_Mage]

Actually, it is specific that you have to manifest as if it was six lower than it was, which is why it doesn't work. Your ML is only two under what it is with practiced manifester if it affects the schismed mind, so it still doesn't work.

Why do you keep saying this? It only seems to breed confusion. The Schismed mind can only manifest powers at -6 ML. Practiced manifester can't raise your ML above your HD. So the maximum effective manifester level the schismed mind can make use of is HD-6, right? Why confuse the issue with "It works, but not in any useful sense of the word" nonsense?

[Milskidasith]

Why do you keep saying this? It only seems to breed confusion. The Schismed mind can only manifest powers at -6 ML. Practiced manifester can't raise your ML above your HD. So the maximum effective manifester level the schismed mind can make use of is HD-6, right? Why confuse the issue with "It works, but not in any useful sense of the word" nonsense?

That's exactly what I'm saying, actually. The only reason it was confusing was because Samb would not agree that Practiced Manifester shouldn't work, at all, and would not agree that only counted as an absolute, so I had to prove even with it technically working to put your ML at -2, you couldn't actually use it.

[Samb]

That's exactly what I'm saying, actually. The only reason it was confusing was because Samb would not agree that Practiced Manifester shouldn't work, at all, and would not agree that only counted as an absolute, so I had to prove even with it technically working to put your ML at -2, you couldn't actually use it.

I read "only" as "schismed mind is just like your normal mind with the sole exception that", you interpert it as "must be". I personally think I am correct and most handbook writers that were made after CPsi consider my interpretation as RAI. Go read the the psion's handbook or the psywar's handbook and see for yourself. If you insist on gimping this then I would say it is your freedom to do so. All my PC are psionic and I have never had an issue with this.

If you told me that there was a feat that gave you 30 divine ranks when you cast magaic missiles, I would say "that's broken but legal". Your example is just ridiculous and not supported by and rules (and quite insulting to my intelligence).

I pointed out temporal acceleration, haste and fission because they set a precursor of rigid parameters. If Cordell didn't want practised manifester to work on schism then he would have written it out or issued an errata (like what he did to astral construct and empathic transfer). But he didn't, and no where is schism, PM, or overchannel's description does it say you can't use it with schism, unlike the clear limits set by other powers and spells.

The OP asked if overchannel can be used, even by your hard-line interpretation it can, be cause overchannel boosts ML while schism loses ML. If a DM feels that schism with only -2 ML is overpowered he can disallow it.

[RagnaroksChosen]

I read "only" as "schismed mind is just like your normal mind with the sole exception that", you interpert it as "must be". I personally think I am correct and most handbook writers that were made after CPsi consider my interpretation as RAI. Go read the the psion's handbook or the psywar's handbook and see for yourself. If you insist on gimping this then I would say it is your freedom to do so. All my PC are psionic and I have never had an issue with this.

I agree with you.

Overchannel and wildsurge i belive break the whole manifester level thing if i remember correctly so why would it not work on a schisimed mind.