[3.5] So my players have learnt how to (ab)use spell storing arrows... (RHoD related)

[Rising Phoenix]

Hello all,


So after about 8 months of playing, the group I am DMing has finally reached the Battle of Brindol chapter. I've boosted the encounters a bit, as I have 6 PCs of 7-8 level (8th lv Cleric, Dragonfire Adept, Ranger (exacting shot on goblinoids!), 7th lv Paladin, Scout/Rogue, Barbarian/Bard) and all was looking good until they received the 5,000 war preparation fund from the council and decided to spend it on spell storing arrows in which they proceeded to cast energy vortex (21 of them), hold person (4), inflict serious wounds (6), glitterdust(2). They also have truck-loads of healing with three wands of cure serious wounds (10 charges).


Thus I am little concerned that they will simply wipe the floor with most of the stuff the horde will throw at them. I have thought of some ways to counter their formidable archery power, but I don't want to do it to such an extent that I render their preparations useless. That'd be unfair on my part. I should also say that it is unlikely that we'll have time to finish the Fane of Tiamat, so all the more reason for the battle to be climatic.

So I will start with how I've modified the encounters

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Save the Walls:

Added here a mounted on a half red dragon direwolf archer. With far shot and levels in deep wood sniper he can fire from 300 feet away, making him very annoying. On the ground I've placed Spiked-chain wielding Ogres (3 lvs in fighter), but these are pretty redundant considering that the PCs are using Giant Owls.

Abithriax’s Rampage:

I really want to boost Abithriax age category by one... However, thus far, I've decided against it as he can really wipe the floor with the PCs if they are reckless. I've swapped one of his feats for Awaken Spell Resistance and am glad I did so...


Streets of Blood:

(BTW, How wide IS the Dawn Way? I've read the description several times and can't find it anywhere. I am guessing 10 ft...)

First Wave:

The only 'threat' here are the manticores so I've added an invisible warcaster here (casts as a lv 7 wizard, thank you AslanCross) mainly for buffing. They should all go down quickly though (even if upgraded to warblades), given that the PCs will probably place caltrops and proceed to nuke 'dem with arrows...Any suggestions on a low level critter that will make this encounter interesting? I have considered ninjas...


2nd Wave:

Added an invisible lv5 cleric and a lv5 Bard with dragonfire inspiration(ice). As was, I was predicting that the 8 Bugbears would fall fast and, considering the PCs firepower, are. Suggestions?

3rd Wave:

Am/was planning to run this as is... Those Thunderlizards are nasty...the party cleric, could null their threat if he has a mass resist elements though.

4th Wave:

Varanthian will be the fourth wave, as the PCs did not manage to kill her. She should still be deadly, but if the Dawn way is only 10 feet wide her threat is somewhat lessened.


Sniper Attack:

I've added Ulwai Stormcaller here as the PCs didn't manage to dispose. Admittedly I haven't really worried about this encounter much. Any weaknesses I should be aware off?

Final Confrontation:

I've replaced the Ogres with Skullcrusher ones and Kharn has been rebuild as a Ruby Knight Vindicator lv 10. Very effective and am giving him stoneskin.

Now my thoughts on minimizing the threat of those arrows:

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1) Sunder and Disarm: Very effective and will annoy the PCs greatly. Can also be used on wands. Problem is that the opponent must me in melee and this is unlikely to happen. In particular for the first encounter I was thinking of having draconic eagles try to nab the bows from the PCs hands...
2) Sleight of Hand: on wands and arrows. High shock value, but same problems as above.
3) Wind Wall: Very effective, but blocks enemy firepower as well.
4) Resist Elements: Decent, but having every have this is not fair. Also the PCs can just switch to the next element.
5) Dispel Magic: Will be used directly on PCs...That's a LOT of arrows to dispel though.
6) Magic Resistance: Good and the two Dragons that the PCs will face, have it.
7) Ethereal opponents, these are good. But the PCs have severed the Ghostlords alliance.

Any advise on how to make these alterations fine and 'fair' would be most welcome!

Thanks for reading!

R.P.

[Signmaker]

...huh. Coulda sworn that you couldn't use spell storing on ranged arrow attacks (as opposed to melee arrow attacks).

[arguskos]

You can't put spell storing on ranged weapons. Check the weapon enchantment tables. Spell storing is only on the melee tables.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

You can't put spell storing on ranged weapons. Check the weapon enchantment tables. Spell storing is only on the melee tables.

Technically, those are only the random generation tables. Spell storing doesn't have a melee-only disclaimer like e.g. seeking ("Only ranged weapons can have the seeking ability.") so it's perfectly possible to have spell storing ranged weapons.

Now, should it be allowed on a ranged weapon? This thread would seem to be good evidence against. Also, it's targeted spells only, so you couldn't cast glitterdust into one (and I'm assuming energy vortex is also an AoE, not recognizing that off the top of my head, so that wouldn't work either).

[arguskos]

Ah, I thought it had the restriction, seeing as it was in the table as melee only. Fair enough, my bad. Way to put me in my place, Pair, you punk.

Also, energy vortex is an AoE effect indeed.

[PinkysBrain]

You have to wield a spellstoring weapon to release the spell, you aren't wielding arrows when they hit ... even if you can put it on a arrow you still have to use it in melee (as a dagger). That said, it's still overpowered ... so make it swift action activation. It's still powerful and useful, just not OMG overpowered.

Alternatively give all the enemies spellstoring arrows with 5d6 shocking grasp (130 gp a pop).

[tyckspoon]

So after about 8 months of playing, the group I am DMing has finally reached the Battle of Brindol chapter. I've boosted the encounters a bit, as I have 6 PCs of 7-8 level (8th lv Cleric, Dragonfire Adept, Ranger (exacting shot on goblinoids!), 7th lv Paladin, Scout/Rogue, Barbarian/Bard) and all was looking good until they received the 5,000 war preparation fund from the council and decided to spend it on spell storing arrows in which they proceeded to cast energy vortex (21 of them), hold person (4), inflict serious wounds (6), glitterdust(2). They also have truck-loads of healing with three wands of cure serious wounds (10 charges).

R.P.

If you're going to allow it, get familiar with what Spell Storing actually does. In particular, you need to be comfortable with what it means for something to be a targeted spell. It's actually a specific game term- it doesn't just mean anything that you aim at an area, which covers Glitterdust and I assume Energy Vortex. Targeted spells have a Target: line in their spell descriptions. Spreads and bursts are usually not targeted spells. Rays are not targeted spells. Touch spells usually are.

[Rising Phoenix]

Thanks for your clarification guys. It helps a fair bit.

Now it's a matter of rectifying it with the PCs...

I like Pinky's Brain of allowing, but as a swift action and and (of course) only on targeted spells.

Cheers!

R.P.

[taltamir]

You have to wield a spellstoring weapon to release the spell, you aren't wielding arrows when they hit ... even if you can put it on a arrow you still have to use it in melee (as a dagger). That said, it's still overpowered ... so make it swift action activation. It's still powerful and useful, just not OMG overpowered.

Alternatively give all the enemies spellstoring arrows with 5d6 shocking grasp (130 gp a pop).

that... point out that the way they intended to use it is illegal, and for a reason. The spell doesn't work the way they describe it does, and if the whine, point out that the enemies could be shooting them with the above mentioned.

I'd say, give them some time (and refund their purchases) to replan the encounter.

[Dixieboy]

I am against whatever rules forbid the use of fireball arrows on principle!

[Indon]

You have to wield a spellstoring weapon to release the spell, you aren't wielding arrows when they hit ... even if you can put it on a arrow you still have to use it in melee (as a dagger).

You're wielding the bow, though. Bow isn't hitting? Don't worry, bows grant their enchantments to their ammunition.

Of course, that requires the bow to be enchanted with spell storing.

[Foryn Gilnith]

You're wielding the bow. If it were an Elvencraft bow, you could smack people and unleash the spell. The actual arrow, however, is problematic.
1) You're wielding the bow, not the arrow
2) The bow gives the enhancement, Spell Storing, to the arrows. It does not give any stored spell to the arrows.

Also, in MIC, Spell Storing is listed only in the "melee weapon enhancements" index. Not a random generation table, but an exhaustive list of potentially purchasable enhancements. Peripheral evidence that it's melee-only, and the closest to an errata we'll get.

[Kylarra]

I am against whatever rules forbid the use of fireball arrows on principle!

Then play an arcane archer!

[vampire2948]

Why not cast a wall of Dispel, or Greater Dispel [Spell Compendium].

This would disenchant the arrows as they pass through.

[ericgrau]

You actually allow spell storing arrows?!?! This is one of those things that is up for theoretical debate on whether or not it's allowable (probably not - how do you free action activate a weapon you aren't holding?). Practically speaking it's pretty open and shut. Think of the cost difference between spell storing melee weapons and spell storing arrows. You've already seen the abusability first hand. Just ban them and be done with it.

[Curmudgeon]

2) The bow gives the enhancement, Spell Storing, to the arrows. It does not give any stored spell to the arrows.

Actually, it does not. The Spell Storing enhancement description lacks a line like the following:

Bows, crossbows, and slings so crafted bestow the sonic energy upon their ammunition.

There is no general statement that non-numerical enhancements are passed from bow to arrows; rather, each property must include a specific statement to that effect. Spell Storing does not pass from bow to arrows. And of course an arrow, once it leaves the archer, isn't being wielded, so Spell Storing arrows won't do anything on impact.

[ericgrau]

Yeah, this debate has gone on in the forums before, and I still say spell storing arrows are not legal. But my point was that even if you think the're technically legal you'd be crazy to allow them at normal price. Ban them and be done with it.

[Philistine]

Energy Vortex is in the SpC, p81. Probably the reason nobody's heard of it is that nobody's used it - it's not very good. At all. It's a level 3 (the same as Fireball) divine spell (well, that's different anyway) that does 1d8 + lvl damage quite a bit less than Fireball) in a 20' radius blast (the same as Fireball) centered on the caster (hey, let's blow up the party!), and it allows Reflex saves as well as both Spell and Energy Resistance (the same as Fireball). The only things it even remotely has going for it are that it is a divine spell (in case you completely lose your mind and decide you want your CoDzilla to try DD blasting), and that you choose the energy type at the time of casting.

For the purposes of this discussion: even if you were going to allow spell-storing arrows in general, there's nothing "targeted" about this spell. At least Fireball is aimed toward a point in space; Energy Vortex is just a nova centered on the caster.

[Starbuck_II]

Then play an arcane archer!

But AA's suck beyond that ability.

[sofawall]

But AA's suck beyond that ability.

And fireball arrows don't suck?

[Moriato]

I'd allow pell storing arrows with one caveat: The spell is going to go off whether you hit your target or not.

With a spell storing melee weapon you hit your foe, then get to decide whether you want the spell to go off or not. With an arrow you can't really make that decision after the arrow is already 100ft away. You'd have to decide whether you want it to go off, or not, before you fire the arrow.

So be careful with those fireball arrows. And don't roll a 1.

[ravenkith]

There's a reason armies don't use lots of magic ammunition.

It's a low level spell called wind wall.

[The Dark Fiddler]

And fireball arrows don't suck?

RuleofCool.* I mean, what's better than an exploding arrow?

*Link removed for safety of the community members who have lives.

[spamoo]

In my experience, Spell Storing arrows made one of my most amazing/fun to play characters ever. However, this was with a lax DM who was very well respected by both myself and the other players. As such we had an unwritten agreement that we could get away with bending a few characters as long as those changes didn't abuse or break the game. I would rarely use more than one or two SS arrows per encounter (exceptions for dire situations). So, Spell Storing Arrows overall can be a great addition to a game if they're not abused. If you still want SS arrows in a game, try giving out a couple as random treasure therefore they become a limited resource.

[sofawall]

Spell Storing Arrows = Really Really cheap healing items.

[Rising Phoenix]

You actually allow spell storing arrows?!?! This is one of those things that is up for theoretical debate on whether or not it's allowable (probably not - how do you free action activate a weapon you aren't holding?). Practically speaking it's pretty open and shut. Think of the cost difference between spell storing melee weapons and spell storing arrows. You've already seen the abusability first hand. Just ban them and be done with it.

Hello,

I've decided to do so, but only for targeted spells and activation is a swift action (this limits it to one arrow per round). If abuse becomes an issue, I'll simply ban that too (yes, they'll protest, but a no is a no).

And ravenkith, wind wall is on nearly every enemy spellcaster list...

Cheers!

R.P.

[deuxhero]

Eh, Wands of Cure Light Wounds are better than Wands of Cure Serious Wounds

@Curmudgeon
It isn't a spell storing bow, it is spell storing arrows. The bow doesn't need to apply the property.

[Rising Phoenix]

Eh, Wands of Cure Light Wounds are better than Wands of Cure Serious Wounds

@Curmudgeon
It isn't a spell storing bow, it is spell storing arrows. The bow doesn't need to apply the property.

1d8+1 won't save you in mid battle. 3d8+5 might...(The PCs have lots of cure light charges as well)

[kjones]

Legality of spell storing arrows aside, I personally wouldn't have allowed the players to just buy whatever they felt like - I probably would have ruled that availability of any specific item would be pretty limited in a situation like Brindol during wartime.

As for some of your other questions - my paper copy of RHoD came with a map of the Dawn Way (which is, presumably, why there isn't one in the relevant section of the module). I forget exactly how wide it is, but it's much wider than 10 feet - more like 30 or 40. It is a major thoroughfare for the city, after all. It's lined with buildings on either side, too, with narrow alleyways between them.

Your encounters look good. I'd recommend against boosting Abithraix - he's enough of a challenge as is, especially considering everything else your party will need to go up against. Do your PCs have ranks in the relevant skills for handling giant owls as war mounts? I'd be surprised if they did.

As for "notable weaknesses" - keep in mind that the bluespawn and their riders have pretty low will saves. Action advantage in the final battle can be a problem, especially if you're planning on having NPC allies fighting alongside the party. Throw some more minions into the mix if you are - something to keep everyone else occupied.

[Rising Phoenix]

Thanks Kjones! :-)

Legality of spell storing arrows aside, I personally wouldn't have allowed the players to just buy whatever they felt like - I probably would have ruled that availability of any specific item would be pretty limited in a situation like Brindol during wartime.

Point, but the module states that "in any quantity" (and I didn't think of doing that)

As for some of your other questions - my paper copy of RHoD came with a map of the Dawn Way (which is, presumably, why there isn't one in the relevant section of the module). I forget exactly how wide it is, but it's much wider than 10 feet - more like 30 or 40. It is a major thoroughfare for the city, after all. It's lined with buildings on either side, too, with narrow alleyways between them.

Thanks.

Your encounters look good. I'd recommend against boosting Abithraix - he's enough of a challenge as is, especially considering everything else your party will need to go up against. Do your PCs have ranks in the relevant skills for handling giant owls as war mounts? I'd be surprised if they did.

Abithraix remains unchanged, apart from the feat. Surprisingly, 3 of the 4 PCs riding the owls actually have ranks in Handle Animal and Ride. I have been forgetting to ask for ride checks though. Thanks for reminding me.

As for "notable weaknesses" - keep in mind that the bluespawn and their riders have pretty low will saves. Action advantage in the final battle can be a problem, especially if you're planning on having NPC allies fighting alongside the party. Throw some more minions into the mix if you are - something to keep everyone else occupied.

Hmmm... I'll stat some additional low level mooks, for this. Perhaps some agile ones that can scale walls and attack from behind.

Thanks for your time.

R.P.