Pathfinders Monsters as PCs

[BobVosh]

Besides a variety of small changes, like what they did with undead and swarms, they completely changed how ECL works.

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/m...tersAsPCs.html

Short form: CR=ECL. Then every 3 levels your cr goes down by one (2 levels) until you have reduced half of your CR.

So if you are CR 5 then that critter is ECL 5. 6 when you take a class level.

So when you gain 3 levels total, you get a fourth one. You do this twice in your career, as an easier and better form of LA buyoff. At least that is how it sounds at first to me. I'm curious on everyone's take on this.

[Xenogears]

CR shouldn't be equal to ECL. For instance taking a monster from the SRD:

Air Mephit. CR 3 so a lvl 1 Air Mephit would be ECL 4 and have fast healing, DR, and innate flight. Also 3 outsider hit die so if being a melee type you basically lose almost nothing since outsider HD can be quite good.

Or a Wight. Also CR 3. 4d12 HD, infinite spawn, etc.

Point being CR is already badly applied but some abilities are not too effective in combat but are highly overpowerd over a campain.

[BobVosh]

Hmm, the first 3 monsters I just randomly clicked on worked well. But now I see I got randomly lucky. Although it isn't too bad. It looks like they don't do the stat-10 for adjustment, but what you see is what you get. Sure at low levels the mephit's fly is nice, but not really all that amazing by level 5.

[Rixx]

You don't do it twice - you do it once every three levels until half your "monster levels" are bought off.

The book also says that regardless of CR, many monsters have abilities that make them totally unsuited for play.

[oxybe]

so essentially: "eyeball it with out rules, hope for the best and don't be a jerk about it"?

[Zaydos]

so essentially: "eyeball it with out rules, hope for the best and don't be a jerk about it"?

Sounds better than 3.5 ECL often is. Seriously CR rarely equals ECL, HD might be a better yard stick but it is not nearly perfect either. ECL in 3.5 is typically too high but the reason it needed to be different from CR is valid some monsters get too much too often for PCs of that level. The application (arbitrarily assigning higher LA than necessary to discourage monstrous races) though is often lacking.

[oxybe]

preaching to the choir, Zay. lord knows how many times i have to explain to people the ECL/LA/racial HD/CR differences in 3rd ed.

at this point i just point them to "Billy the Bugbear Beguiler 1".

[PinkysBrain]

Completely breaks with spellcasting creatures (they almost all have CR equal to caster level, so with the extra levels they actually get to higher spellcasting faster than normal PCs).

So basically we have a system completely unusable without DM fiat every bloody step of the way ... that's progress for you. The LA system was bad, this is also bad. The fact that the LA system picked a couple of creatures and declared them suitable for PCs and tried to create a way to progress them for players was a good aspect of the system ... they threw the baby out with the bathwater.

[bosssmiley]

So when you gain 3 levels total, you get a fourth one. You do this twice in your career, as an easier and better form of LA buyoff. At least that is how it sounds at first to me. I'm curious on everyone's take on this.

Sounds a bit like LA buy-off. Only stolen from someone's trash.

[BobVosh]

Sounds a bit like LA buy-off. Only stolen from someone's trash.

What I liked about it is it doesn't matter what the LA is. You don't have a sliding scale of when you can start to buy off LA. Also it doesn't ever change your XP total. However yes, it is very similar to LA.

[Starbuck_II]

CR shouldn't be equal to ECL. For instance taking a monster from the SRD:

Air Mephit. CR 3 so a lvl 1 Air Mephit would be ECL 4 and have fast healing, DR, and innate flight. Also 3 outsider hit die so if being a melee type you basically lose almost nothing since outsider HD can be quite good.

You can't advance in Monster HD. So While the Outsider HD are okay: Mephits aren't that great themselves.
Remember Air Mephits can't heal unless they have a big wind blast on them (like gust of wind).

[Rixx]

For the record, here's the book text (OGL):

Using one of the monsters presented in this book as a character can be very rewarding, but weighing such a character against others is challenging. Monsters are not designed with the rules for players in mind, and as such can be very unbalancing if not handled carefully.

There are a number of monsters in this book that do not possess racial Hit Dice. Such creatures are the best options for player characters, but a few of them are so powerful that they count as having 1 class level, even without a racial Hit Die. Such characters should only be allowed in a group that is 2nd-level or higher.

For monsters with racial Hit Dice, the best way to allow monster PCs is to pick a CR and allow all of the players to make characters using monsters of that CR. Treat the monster's CR as its total class levels and allow the characters to multiclass into the core classes. Do not advance such monsters by adding Hit Dice. Monster PCs should only advance through classes.

If you are including a single monster character in a group of standard characters, make sure the group is of a level that is at least as high as the monster's CR. Treat the monster's CR as class levels when determining the monster PC's overall levels. For example, in a group of 6th-level characters, a minotaur (CR 4) would possess 2 levels of a core class, such as barbarian.

Note that in a mixed group, the value of racial Hit Dice and abilities diminish as a character gains levels. It is recommended that for every 3 levels gained by the group, the monster character should gain an extra level, received halfway between the 2nd and 3rd levels. Repeat this process a number of times equal to half the monster's CR, rounded down. Using the minotaur example, when the group is at a point between 6th and 7th level, the minotaur gains a level, and then again at 7th, making him a minotaur barbarian 4. This process repeats at 10th level, making him a minotaur barbarian 8 when the group reaches 10th level. From that point onward, he gains levels normally.

GMs should carefully consider any monster PCs in their groups. Some creatures are simply not suitable for play as PCs, due to their powers or role in the game. As monster characters progress, GMs should closely monitor whether such characters are disruptive or abusive to the rules and modify them as needed to improve play.

[Kylarra]

Basically "play nice" in other words.

[imperialspectre]

Actually, CR is a really good way to determine whether a monster is level-appropriate for a group of PCs. After all, the only hard-and-fast "rule" about D&D balance is that one creature of CR X is supposed to be equal to another creature of CR X in terms of average threat level (sure, they break that rule pretty regularly, but I don't know yet whether Paizo's done anything to make their monsters better-balanced). It follows from that basic rule that a succubus, at CR 8, ought to be basically even in terms of capability with an 8th-level paladin.

I'm not sure, to be honest, that "buying off" CR is a good idea. I, personally, would just check to make sure that a creature of a given CR has HD equal to CR, with BAB, saves, and any innate racial casting kept appropriate to that HD. But aside from that, a nymph really is a 7th-level character (although she should lose a single HD for being in a party. Adding druid levels on top of that (or a wizard dip with non-PRPG early-entry to get into Mystic Theurge or Arcane Hierophant) would give you a perfectly functional character.

[PinkysBrain]

If you take this as rules it basically never makes sense to not play a monster race for non casters, at least at higher levels. Look at what being a natural lycanthrope gets you ... you lose two levels (after "buy off", which finishes at level 10) you get :

Pounce (which in a Pathfinder only game is rather powerful)
Bite, claws (also rake attacks on a pounce)
DR 10/silver
You can dump all your physical stats and still get Str 23, Dex 17, Con 17 in hybrid form

Not as good as the Nymph with "buy off" of course, but still very good.

[Rixx]

Though keep in mind that Pathfinder classes are much more powerful, so losing class levels counts for a little more.

But yeah, the monsters aren't balanced to be played as, so pointing out examples that can easily abused isn't that impressive XD;

They say they may release a "Savage Species" type book some time in the future with more rules on playing as monster races, depending on customer demand.

[pres_man]

Interesting comment.

...I think Goblinoids and Orcs should get the full PF treatment. I know they are primarily supposed to be opponents and NPCs, but they're popular enough that they deserve to be balanced with the regular PF Races.

The "proper PF treatment" of these races, though, is not to make them player races. It's to make them monsters. And some monsters HAVE to be wimps, so that low level heroic PCs can have a chance fighting a bunch of them.

Turning monsters into PC races is, in fact, NOT the Pathfinder way. We prefer games that use the core races as core races, after all. That's the assumption in Golarion and all of our adventures and products. Time spent this early in the game's new life cycle supporting styles of play that aren't the bread-and-butter of our backbone products is bad business. In time, we'll be able to turn our attention to more niche markets like psionics, epic content, and monstrous PCs. That time is not yet here, but we DO want to try to give some guidelines on how folks can get started on this stuff without us.

But keep in mind that we had to and WANTED to design a core game with core assumptions.

[Rixx]

For the record, they had a method for determining CR involving tables and such, and that information is in the back of the book.