CharOp MADness (need help with a melee build)

[Skorj]

I need some help from the op-fu masters on the board with an unusual char-op challenge.

Background: this is a NPC/DMPC for an all-caster party (and those of you in the Arcane Adventurers party are free to read this thread - the results won't be a secret).

Starting point: a melee character with the worst in MAD - a monk/paladin.

• Starting from level 5 (Monk 2/ Pally 3).
• No stat over 14.
• No useful racial benefit.

What can be done to make this character useful, or failing that, colorful and interesting?

What we don't need:

• Don't need to be on-par with a tier-1 class. As a DMPC, that would actually be a problem.
• Don't need a lockdown build. With 9 casters spamming SoL spells, melee lockdown isn't needed or useful at all.
• Don't need a speciailzed caster-killer.

What we do need:

• Tough enough to survive a couple of rounds of intense combat, especially to tank a single high-CR opponent.
• High saves or resistances.
• High DPS would really be nice, but lower priority.
• Must be fundamentally melee, not gish or skillmonkey.

So, this isn't the normal sort of ChapOp challenge - it's a question of how to best fill the niche of "the only fighter in a group of optimized arcanists" (especially for the time it takes to get summons in play), ideally in some colorful way, from this fairly awful start.

EDIT: Assume all stats at 14 at level 1. All Complete* and Races Of * books allowed (but race is some human variant without the bonus feat or skills - probably Illumian). 1 trait and 1 flaw allowed. No multi-class restriction.

[Godskook]

What race is he, and what other 'normal' decisions have already been made. Are traits/flaws allowed?

Also, what books are allowed?

[cheezewizz2000]

Point buy? If so, how many? Failing that, what stat values has he rolled?

[Draz74]

What we do need:[LIST][*]Tough enough to survive a couple of rounds of intense combat, especially to tank a single high-CR opponent.

14 Constitution, a variety of AC-boosting items, and a miss chance. If he can't get one of the Wizards to cast Blur on him every battle, his best shot is probably a Minor Cloak of Displacement or Armor of Greater Blurring (MIC). Either one is out of his budget range at Level 5, but he can start saving towards it.

[*]High saves or resistances.

Mostly just the obvious. 14 CON, 14 WIS, 14 DEX, 14 CHA, and the best Cloak of Resistance he can buy.

[*]High DPS would really be nice, but lower priority.

I'd recommend a maxxed Concentration check, so that in a few levels, he can pick up a Martial Study feat or a Ring of the Diamond Mind that will let him use the Insightful Strike maneuver (replace rolled damage with a Concentration check result) 1/encounter.

[Skorj]

Edited the first post to answer the stuff I missed (allowed books ).

[Runeclaw]

I'm not really much of an optimizer, but I have played a couple of Monk/Paladins...

Ascetic Knight feat, obviously.

Monk ACF that lets you do double damage rather than flurry of blows can be used with a Smite Evil to increase your bonus damage.

Charging Smite Paladin ACF can push this even further, if you're willing to give up your horse. Combine that with the standard charger build.

Paladin and Monk are both classes to take what you want and get out (and of course, never come back).

There are a couple of feats that let you treat a polearm as a monk weapon. With that, you threaten both 5' and 10'. Add Combat Reflexes.

Or carry a bow and use unarmed combat for threatening / melee attacks - there's no need to ever use your hands for that, and there's bound to be a better use to put them to.

[Skorj]

Thanks for the ideas - giving up the horsie is fine, and a charger build really makes sense for a character who will focus on the first couple of rounds of combat and the single biggest opponent.

There's no need to continue as Monk/Pally if there's somehting better, or some useful PrCs (though somehow only the Gish melee PrCs seem to be useful, and I'm trying not to go Gish here). What colorful PrC's might I be missing?

[Wereling]

I'm nearly certain that there's a feat out there that allows you to substitute WIS for CHA for Paladin abilities, which would reduce MAD. I can't seem to find it at the moment though. It MIGHT be in Dragon Compendium though so it may be off limits. Wish I could be more helpful.

[Eldariel]

I'm nearly certain that there's a feat out there that allows you to substitute WIS for CHA for Paladin abilities, which would reduce MAD. I can't seem to find it at the moment though. It MIGHT be in Dragon Compendium though so it may be off limits. Wish I could be more helpful.

Serenity, and yes, it's in DC.

[Decoy Lockbox]

how to best fill the niche of "the only fighter in a group of optimized arcanists"

I would be willing to bet my entire life savings that the answer is not "a multiclass monk/paladin with all 14's".

In order to survive "intense fighting", this guy is going to need a decent AC, and the normal unarmored monk with 14 wis and dex is going to have, what, a 14 AC at level 5 (you dont' even get the +1 for being lvl 5 monk since you are a lvl 5 monk/paladin)? Thats a guaranteed recipe for death, so then you'd probably go with the paladin's plate and shield, which then invalidates your Monk-ness, which already sucked to begin with. I've never played a monk/paladin before, but I've played a paladin (from 1 to 25, when 3e first came out) and a monk before, and, despite the immense coolness of each class, they both were quite bad, especially compared to an "optimized arcanist", which your party appears to be composed entirely of!

Seems like a cleric would be really good in this party though. And of course he can fight pretty well at the lower levels, and really well at the higher ones

[Kurald Galain]

Thats a guaranteed recipe for death, so then you'd probably go with the paladin's plate and shield, which then invalidates your Monk-ness, which already sucked to begin with.

I don't see a problem with that, really. The two levels of monk effectively give you better saving throws at the cost of a point of BAB. Otherwise the monk abilities are best ignored in favor of wielding an actual weapon and wearing armor.

[Decoy Lockbox]

I don't see a problem with that, really. The two levels of monk effectively give you better saving throws at the cost of a point of BAB. Otherwise the monk abilities are best ignored in favor of wielding an actual weapon and wearing armor.

Yeah, you are right that the first two levels of monk do go well with some things, but the problem is that he is looking for an optimized character.

I think I need to retire from these monk threads before my nerd rage spillith over and causes a nerd stroke. Hell, I don't even play 3rd edition any more, lol!

Peace out y'all.

[Wereling]

Does anyone think that one of the Eberron feats that allow you to use various weapons as monk weapons are worthwhile? If so/not, why?

[Flickerdart]

Does anyone think that one of the Eberron feats that allow you to use various weapons as monk weapons are worthwhile? If so/not, why?

You've got better things to do with feats. Grabbing that feat for Spiked Chain might be worth it if you took the Improved Trip bonus feat, but you don't have enough BAB to be a trip monkey anyway. Monks can't get the benefits of THFing and PA either, really. You're better off sticking to unarmed damage.

[sebsmith]

Maybe take one level of fighter for the feat (and to get us back to an even number of levels) and then 14 levels in Warblade or Crusader? You'll end up with an initiator level of 17 at 20th which will let you have 9th level maneuvers. Hopefully your game doesn't have multi-class restrictions, or else this might not run afoul of them.

[Sir Giacomo]

I guess that for tanking at these levels, and mostly a single high level CR, a grappling DMPC of a monk2/pal3 may be an idea.

STR 14 (start) gives +2. +4 BAB, +4 from improved grapple. And the arcane party could enlarge him and/or bull strength him.*

This could mean around +17 grapple check, good enough to take on a troll.

Since his AC is not that important in a grapple, he could opt to move in a monk's robe and without armour.

- Giacomo

*(or with his CHR 14 he might have a high enough UMD of +19 for a wand of enlarge with the help of feats :
4 ranks cross-class
+2 CHR
+2 MW item
+3 skill focus feat
+2 magical apitude feat
+6 competence bonus from a custom item (only magic item, the paladin/monk may be quite popular)

[FMArthur]

I have a wonderful starting point for the tankiest of tanks: Feral Lolth-Touched Dragonborn Mongrelfolk. The ability score adjustments are +10 Str, -4 Dex, +14 Con, -6 Int, +2 Wis, -2 Cha, for +2 LA. It gains +4 to Hide and Move Silently from Lolth-touched. It gains +10ft landspeed, +6 NA, Improved Grab, Pounce, Rake, Rend, and fast healing as it advances in HD thanks to Feral. Choose winged flight or a breath weapon for being Dragonborn. I'd put it into Crusader if it didn't seem like overkill; a Knight would probably be best for attracting the attention of foes. Don't expect a pretty or intelligent character out of this. Just a savage who dreams of war and isn't even slightly concerned about being gored a few times as a result of it.