Pathfinder - Vancian Psionics

[oxinabox]

Dreamscarred Press is currently working on updating psionics to pathfinder (since Paizo has already said they're just going to convert it to a vancian system). They already have an alpha version of the wilder up for commenting, and you could easily go look at it for some ideas.

So this came up in another thread,
It's really worth discussing.

[Mongoose87]

I don't like the Vancian system for regular spellcasting. This idea sucks a rust monster.

[KillianHawkeye]

I thought the strength of the 3.5 psionics system was that is was LESS Vancian than the magic system? If I were to design my own version of D&D 3E, I'd change the magic system to be more like psionics, not the other way around.

[Mauril Everleaf]

What I expect will happen is that they will introduce Psionics as a Vancian system and then introduce their own UA Spell Points system (hopefully better reflecting the exponential increase in power rather than a linear one) which will apply to both systems.

This would increase the Magic/Psionic transparency and streamline the two systems. Since Paizo seems to be interested in streamlining things, it would make a lot of sense.

[AstralFire]

Currently this rumor is apparently unverified and I am hoping it remains that way. I don't like Pathfinder, but some ideas are just beyond idiotic.

[Kylarra]

Yeah I'll agree that the whole point of psionics was to be not vancian...

[Akal Saris]

But even in 3.5 psionics, you got spell points/day - isn't that Vancian in of itself?

[AstralFire]

But even in 3.5 psionics, you got spell points/day - isn't that Vancian in of itself?

...No, that's a daily reserve of abilities. While something of a related concept, it is only tangentially so. The important part about Vancian casting is that it is in discrete (rather than gradated) levels and centers around 'word magic', the memorization of a complex string of arcane words which have inherent power in the universe and have a coherent will and existence of their own.

[Kylarra]

But even in 3.5 psionics, you got spell points/day - isn't that Vancian in of itself?

Not really? Pretty much every game with mana or mp has a certain amount that you have that can be recovered by resting.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Vancian, after all is the classic "fire-and-forget." So, technically, spontaneous casters aren't completely Vancian. Same goes for psionic classes.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

My searches are not coming up with anything that corroborates the quote in the OP. Of course, then I only made a few quick searches. I might be missing something.

[Mauril Everleaf]

The quote is from over in the Paizo boards. I saw it myself the other day. Although, for the life of me, I can't find it myself right now.

[taltamir]

ugh... the vanacian system is the worst magic system ever conceived...
And psionics is only good because its not vanacian...

[Lycanthromancer]

I dunno. Psionics is pretty darned awesome.

It could be better...

...somehow...

...but IT'S OVER 9000!!! times better than Vancian casting ever was...

[Fax Celestis]

But even in 3.5 psionics, you got spell points/day - isn't that Vancian in of itself?

"Vancian" spellcasting is "uses per spell level per day based on character level", not "uses per day based on character level".

[Gralamin]

If this rumor is true, I think it moves Pathfinder from "Intense Dislike" to "Try to destroy it". Vancian Psionics is basically saying "Lets get rid of everything good about psionics and make it mediocre."

[Lycanthromancer]

If this rumor is true, I think it moves Pathfinder from "Intense Dislike" to "Try to destroy it". Vancian Psionics is basically saying "Lets get rid of everything good about psionics and make it mediocre absolute crap."

Fixéd that for you.

[Gralamin]

Fixéd that for you.

I was trying to maybe give it half a chance. Obviously I was mistaken.

[Lycanthromancer]

I was trying to maybe give it half a chance. Obviously I was mistaken.

"Obviously mistaken." Thou art quite the master of understatement, my dear Gralamin.

[Ecalsneerg]

Look on the bright side, if they make it exactly like Wizard or Sorcerer casting, we won't have to deal with the "OMGOVARPOWERRRRRED!!!!" crew in this edition at least.

[Vic_Sage]

Wow....wow..... the PF crew is more inept than I originally thought they were.

[sonofzeal]

Oh good lord.

I think PF tries, I really do. I think they're occasionally misguided, and I'd rather just houserule on my own, but I do think they're trying. This, though, this is just... words do not exist to explain how stupid this idea is. Gah.

[BooNL]

No... just no...

The psionics system is so much better than the vancian system. The only thing they have against them is a bad rep from 3.0 and a terrible Complete X book.

As mentioned, if I were to make my own version of 3.x, psionics would be the way to go.

[Nostri]

I've been reading the threads on the Paizo boards for a few days now paying special attention to their stuff about psionics and I can't find anywhere where someone from the company said straight up that they were doing this. I know a couple of them said it was a thought that they'd had but I also know that the head editor (whatever his name is, I can't remember it right now) has also said they weren't even going to touch psionics for at least two years.

I'd like to see the thread where someone who actually works for the company says that psionics in PF are going to be Vancian if you've still got the link.

[Kurald Galain]

Yeah I'll agree that the whole point of psionics was to be not vancian...

Indeed. Psionics has basically always been "magic, only with spell points". But these things get a life of their own.

(for instance, I find it funny that the 3E sorcerer is essentially "the wizard, only spontaneous" - and then we get 4E, where all classes are equally spontaneous, and yet it still has both a wizard and a sorcerer)

[Flayerman]

Seconding Nostri. Can we get a link to this doomsaying? Pathfinder's so far been pretty smart about what they change in my current play experience (my DM swears they didn't pay anyone to playtest monks, though), and it'd be nice to see a quote saying "Pathfinder Psionics Will Be Vancian".

Besides, I expect if they present a Vancian psionics method, they'll also present a psionic point system in the same book, and probably some third spontaneous psionic system none of us thought of.

And hey, maybe they'll even fix Soulknife.

[Optimystik]

"Vancian" spellcasting is "uses per spell level per day based on character level", not "uses per day based on character level".

This. The difference between Psionics and Vancian casting is that I can spend all day long manifesting 1st-level powers if I want to, but still have the option of manifesting my higher stuff in a pinch. Vancian casting lets me fill all my slots with 1st-level spells, but doing so bars me from casting anything higher.

If psionic powers had a little bit of automatic scaling (instead of relying completely on augmentation) I'd easily rank it above magic. It's just a cooler system, and the powers feel so much more... streamlined than tossing bat poop around and chanting gobbledygook.

[Tehnar]

Wow, I guess Im one of the rare few who prefers Vancian casting to psionic power points.

Not that I think its a bad system, I just don't think they pulled it off right. Also I don't feel that spell/power points give off a DnD wibe.

[Evil the Cat]

I have no problems at all with Vancian casting. However, one of the things I liked most about psionics is that is uses a somewhat different mechanic. One of the things I really like about D&D is the sheer number of options you have to work with. Changing psionics to be more like other casters would be a big mistake in my opinion. Fortunately, it seems to be nothing more than a rumor at the moment, so I'll just hope it is an inaccurate one. I've adopted many of the PF changes into my games, though magic isn't one of them, so I'd be pretty able to ignore a new psionics system.

[Zeuy]

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards...Edition&page=2 About half-way down the second page.

Psionics are certainly one of the topics we want to some day deal with; its a pretty popular subset of the game, and its fans are certainly vocal. But we have to time it right for what's good for the overall line, not just for what's right for Paizo. Epic content is PROBABLY more popular than psionics (although it's a close race), and we certainly won't be doing a psionics book and an epic book in the same year. Also complicating things is the fact that we're really eager and excited to do something NEW with Pathfinder rather than just ape the release schedule of every previous edition of the game.

As for when they finally do happen, I can pretty much guarantee that psionics will NOT be substantially different than the game's current spellcasters... they're very likely to, mechanically, be even closer to arcane and divine spells than they are even in the Expanded Psionics Handbook, and that's something that a lot of psionics fans are going to have difficulty with accepting. But since no one at Paizo's interested in building a set of psionics rules that breaks the game or makes the core classes of the game feel underpowered (which is the way it works now in 3.5), that's not really something that's up for debate.

Another option would be to do something like what TSR did with Dark Sun. Introduce a new setting in Golarion where psionics are the way of things and arcane/divine magic is not. That lets us develop psionics in a "bubble" that doesn't have to worry about clashing with existing rules... but no matter how thick that "bubble" is there'll be leakage. Folks will want to play psionic characters in Golarion no matter what, and saying you can't is bad design. Saying you can't is basically saying we messed up somewhere. To be done right, psionics HAS to exist peacefully and equally with divine/arcane/martial classes. And it might be the only way that can happen is to boot the point-based system entirely.

My personal preference would be, of course, to build psionic characters VERY similar to how the sorcerer or the bard works for the power users, or the barbarian for how the soulblade non-power users work. Spell slots and "psionic powers" (instead of rage powers). Then the actual mechanics work fine, and we don't have the concerns about psionic characters being able to nova and make the core classes feel lame.

I almost think that the best bet is to simply let Dreamscarred's psionics stuff come out and let THAT satisfy the fans of psionics, to be honest. I'm pretty sure that if they keep their momentum up and running, they'll get something in print long before we could anyway.

So basically, if they update psionics, it's going to be closer mechanically to spellcasters. (Core casters are vancian casters, therefore psionics will be converted to a vancian-like system). However, Paizo may just let Dreamscarred Press update psionics and leave it at that.

I'd strongly suggest reading the whole thread in case I missed something else that James said. If I did miss something, please point it out.

Edit: Maybe the OP can put this in the first post for people?