[4e] Sling Love

[Burley]

Oh, ye noble sling. How ye hath been forgoteth! For in thine cloth-strappy simplicity, thine holds the same statistics as that loathsome bow-of-crosses.

Aight, I'm done. But, seriously, the sling is just like a crossbow, and yet nobody uses it. I know why: No support. No feats, no special anythings. Why, though?

So, do you wish the sling to be reborn? Is there anything out there that I've missed? Are there any simple changes we could make, to give the sling more application? (Perhaps adding it in the mace group?)

[Kurald Galain]

Frankly I haven't seen anybody using a crossbow, either...

Sling could use a multiclass feat, and perhaps lead bullets (as opposed to rocks). I fail to see how a sling could be considered a mace, though. Then again, I also fail to see how a net could be considered a flail, and yet it is. Cue cleric/wizard hybrids using a holy net as their arcane implement...

[Fastmover]

Hmm... I thought I remembered seeing something in Complete Scoundrel for the sling. Is there?

Edit: I think it had something to do with sneak attack bludgening damage to stun.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Hmm... I thought I remembered seeing something in Complete Scoundrel for the sling. Is there?

Edit: I think it had something to do with sneak attack bludgening damage to stun.

4th Edition, not 3.5.

Anyhow, I know that rogue powers can use a sling, although I'm not quite sure of the advantage. Maybe that it loads faster than a crossbow? (Rogues are where crossbows and slings would show up the most)

[Morchana]

In our current campaign, I've been throwing rocks so much that I think I am going to break down and get a sling. And yes, I am a rogue-type-- an assassin who started out with next to nothing for weapons besides daggers, who kinda sucks at throwing rocks by hand unless I am in vengeful banshee mode.

I like slings, or at least the idea of them.

[Burley]

Well, Kurald, Crossbows do get the Dual Fisted Shooter, or whatever, that makes them off-hand weapons. I think it also gives you something else on top of that.
Heck, the quarterstaff even got a feat that makes it a double weapon, and defensive.

I think Mace, because it would give the rogue a ranged option to the Ruthless Ruffian. It's a much more powerful, damage-wise that using a dagger or shuriken, but you miss out on that extra +1 proficiency.

[Kurald Galain]

Well, Kurald, Crossbows do get the Dual Fisted Shooter, or whatever, that makes them off-hand weapons. I think it also gives you something else on top of that.

Yes, a feat that gives you a free xbow attack whenever you crit. I'm not saying it's bad or anything, I just haven't seen anyone use it, in a year of playing LFR a lot.

[Hal]

Well, I think you can load a sling one-handed, so you can have a melee weapon in your other hand if you're wielding a sling. And, well, you don't really have to worry about ammo for them, since I imagine most DMs would let you find rocks for them just about anywhere.

I think it's quite likely a flavor thing; slings aren't really an iconic weapon for anyone except giant slayers, and even then that's not much of a D&D setting. I wouldn't say no to further support for them, but I don't see that increasing their use much.

[Burley]

Well, I think you can load a sling one-handed, so you can have a melee weapon in your other hand if you're wielding a sling. And, well, you don't really have to worry about ammo for them, since I imagine most DMs would let you find rocks for them just about anywhere.

I think it's quite likely a flavor thing; slings aren't really an iconic weapon for anyone except giant slayers, and even then that's not much of a D&D setting. I wouldn't say no to further support for them, but I don't see that increasing their use much.

Slings aren't loaded with one hand, sadly. It has, literally, the exact same everything as a crossbow, but a different name and (I think) cheaper ammo. I guess halflings have always been a "great with slings" kinda race for me, and with the rogue having a the ability to use a sling spelled out on every power, I just assume that they deserve something.

Would it be so much to ask that I could take that crossbow feat, and apply it to slings, instead?

[nyjastul69]

Kobolds use special ammunition I don't see why players can't find/make their own.

[kc0bbq]

Kobolds use special ammunition I don't see why players can't find/make their own.

It's all in the alchemy rules. Kobolds' special ammunition was just a preview. Any combat alchemy items can pretty much be turned into ammunition for a small increase in cost.

[Mando Knight]

It's all in the alchemy rules. Kobolds' special ammunition was just a preview. Any combat alchemy items can pretty much be turned into ammunition for a small increase in cost.

There's also magic ammunition in Adventurer's Vault 2.

[oxybe]

a sling is much less conspicuous then a crossbow.

a character with a sling can use it to tie back long hair. the stones are really just nice polished rocks. while a bag of rocks at your side might look suspicious, if the guards ask, show them your money pouch from around your neck (where all my characters hide theirs) and tell them it's a "cutpurse trap". then give a hearty laugh.

[Jack_Banzai]

Yes, a feat that gives you a free xbow attack whenever you crit. I'm not saying it's bad or anything, I just haven't seen anyone use it, in a year of playing LFR a lot.

I use crossbows... but nobody is interested in playing a long-range rogue. Everyone wants to be a Daggermaster.

/sigh

[Kylarra]

I use crossbows... but nobody is interested in playing a long-range rogue. Everyone wants to be a Daggermaster.

/sigh

I wanted to do a master sniper rogue, but to be fair, I want to play like 2 dozen different characters so that one will probably never see the light of day either.

[oxybe]

I use crossbows... but nobody is interested in playing a long-range rogue. Everyone wants to be a Daggermaster.

/sigh

well, my current character is a daggermaster, but he's not foolish to leave adventuring without a ranged attack other then his dagger. that's just crazy!

i mean, the handcrossbow at my side takes attention away from the sling in my hair.

[LibraryOgre]

I use crossbows... but nobody is interested in playing a long-range rogue. Everyone wants to be a Daggermaster.

/sigh

Probably because dagger is a good way to go for a rogue. While a shuriken does an average of 1 more point of damage, daggers can be ranged or melee, enchanted ones can be used against multiple targets (with the auto-return), and get a +1 to hit, making them +4 on top of dex and magic. Crossbows and slings are valid weapons for the rogue, but they don't get that extra that makes them worthwhile.

[Jack_Banzai]

Probably because dagger is a good way to go for a rogue. While a shuriken does an average of 1 more point of damage, daggers can be ranged or melee, enchanted ones can be used against multiple targets (with the auto-return), and get a +1 to hit, making them +4 on top of dex and magic. Crossbows and slings are valid weapons for the rogue, but they don't get that extra that makes them worthwhile.

My superior crossbow/brutal scoundrel rogue, at level 5, has Distant Advantage and a sky-high Stealth that enables him to attack with combat advantage virtually every round.

From 25 squares away. That is the advantage. On a standard map, I can attack with my Superior Crossbow of Distance from as far away as I can usefully be without being off the table completely.

+15 to hit, 1d10+12+2d8 on a hit. With an at-will.

Sure I won't crit as often as a Daggermaster - but the Cloaked Sniper level 12 at-will will let me attack from Stealth and stay Stealthy on a miss. And the d10 damage die actually makes multi-dice damage rolls mean something. Particularly on a crit.

And I won't be eating half as much healing as an in-your-face Rogue, which really makes it all worthwhile.

I owned a Solo 8 black dragon last night and victory never tasted so good. I didn't get hit once the entire encounter.

[nyjastul69]

It's all in the alchemy rules. Kobolds' special ammunition was just a preview. Any combat alchemy items can pretty much be turned into ammunition for a small increase in cost.

Where are the rules for alchemy? I only own the PHB, DMG and MM.

[Artanis]

Pretty similar to making magic items, only focusing on more "alchemy-ish" stuff like smoke bombs and...uh...fire bombs, and fire arrows, and I'll look some more stuff up in a sec.

Also, alchemy stuff tends to suck compared to magic stuff. The feat is generally considered to be flat-out worse than Ritual Caster.


Edit: Here we go, some more stuff.

There's Alchemist's Fire/Frost/Acid, which is basically hand grenades that are related to their given element (e.g. Frost slows and Acid does ongoing damage) and can be made into ammunition. There's also antivenom and weapon-silvering, as well as the classic Tanglefoot Bag, Universal Solvent, and Sovereign Glue. There's lots of other stuff, of course, but that will hopefully get the flavor across.

[Burley]

Yeah, alchemical ammo is nice. And, while not often used, crossbows can be part of really well made characters.
The problem here is: Nobody uses slings! There is one magic item made just for slings, and it's lame!

[nyjastul69]

After a quick google search it seems the alchemy rules are located in the Adventurers Vault. Is this correct?

[Artanis]

Correct. The rules and most of the items are in AV, and there's also a few other items scattered here and there (like in the Eberron PG)

[Jack_Banzai]

Correct. The rules and most of the items are in AV, and there's also a few other items scattered here and there (like in the Eberron PG)

Yes. The Eberron PG has a wonderful paragon path for alchemists and is totally worth the price of the book if you're into an effective, if unusual, character wielding alchemical items.

[Hal]

My superior crossbow/brutal scoundrel rogue, at level 5, has Distant Advantage and a sky-high Stealth that enables him to attack with combat advantage virtually every round.

From 25 squares away. That is the advantage. On a standard map, I can attack with my Superior Crossbow of Distance from as far away as I can usefully be without being off the table completely.

+15 to hit, 1d10+12+2d8 on a hit. With an at-will.

Sure I won't crit as often as a Daggermaster - but the Cloaked Sniper level 12 at-will will let me attack from Stealth and stay Stealthy on a miss. And the d10 damage die actually makes multi-dice damage rolls mean something. Particularly on a crit.

And I won't be eating half as much healing as an in-your-face Rogue, which really makes it all worthwhile.

I owned a Solo 8 black dragon last night and victory never tasted so good. I didn't get hit once the entire encounter.

My last two rogues have met untimely demises (one traded in for a Warlord because the party Bard decided that Bards were boring and so he rolled up a Barbarian, the other pushed off of a 300' tall tower . . . apparently my DM missed 3.5 Save or Die spells). However, should I get to play one again in the future, I'll be getting Ranged Advantage as early as possible. Even if you can't get stealth, you're likely to have CA in some way anyhow.