A Wizard's Plane?

[Narazil]

One thing that's always bugged me. I see a lot of Wizard versus X discussions (yes, really!), and the argument "The Wizard casts Teleport to his home plane with a different timeflow, stays there for "8" hours and comes back the next round" almost always comes up.

How exactly does the Wizard create / steal this plane? I'm not looking for a fluff discussion, just the cold hard RAW way.


TL;DR: How does a Wizard (any level) create his own plane?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

One thing that's always bugged me. I see a lot of Wizard versus X discussions (yes, really!), and the argument "The Wizard casts Teleport to his home plane with a different timeflow, stays there for "8" hours and comes back the next round" almost always comes up.

How exactly does the Wizard create / steal this plane? I'm not looking for a fluff discussion, just the cold hard RAW way.


TL;DR: How does a Wizard (any level) create his own plane?

The Genesis spell in the SRD.

[Narazil]

The Genesis spell in the SRD.

Well, I saw that, but it doesn't say anything about altering timeflow? Is it just a RAI assumption?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Well, I saw that, but it doesn't say anything about altering timeflow? Is it just a RAI assumption?

Time is a trait. You get to dictate traits in the plane if you use Genesis. It is not explicit, however, if time is one of those traits, but it may be.

Either that or you plane shift to an already known plane with a time flow trait to your liking.

[sonofzeal]

Note - there's some interesting legaleese debates about whether or not you can set traits of the plane you create. The key line is "reflecting most any desire the spellcaster can visualize", which begs the question as to whether Flowing Time Trait can be "visualized". The following line also seems to serve as a clarification, and lists purely mundane characteristics (but the existence of atmosphere and temperature on that list do undermine the "visualize" argument).

Personally, I don't think the designers intended planar traits to be customizeable and that they should be assumed to work same as the Prime Material, but I'm not exactly sure RAW is enough to specify either way. Consult Your DM (tm).

[Narazil]

Time is a trait. You get to dictate traits in the plane if you use Genesis. It is not explicit, however, if time is one of those traits, but it may be.

Either that or you plane shift to an already known plane with a time flow trait to your liking.

Not sure on whether I'd include it as a "trait" or not, but I see how some people would.

It does open up a whole new level of discussion, though. If time is a trait, is magic then aswell? I mean, there're different traits of Magic on different planes, why shouldn't you dictate what's right and wrong on your own little corner of the world/multiverse?

Anyway, thanks for the answer! Now I'm one step closer to winning D&D as a Batman Wizard. Or something.

[Kylarra]

Not sure on whether I'd include it as a "trait" or not, but I see how some people would.

It is a trait explicitly.

Physical Traits

The two most important natural laws set by physical traits are how gravity works and how time passes. Other physical traits pertain to the size and shape of a plane and how easily a plane’s nature can be altered.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Anyway, thanks for the answer! Now I'm one step closer to winning D&D as a Batman Wizard. Or something.

Please do not ever use this trick.

[Narazil]

Please do not ever use this trick.

Hence the "Or something". I'm not very good at powergaming.

It is a trait explicitly.

Well, in a physical sense it is. It isn't explicitly stated in the spell, though.

[sonofzeal]

Not sure on whether I'd include it as a "trait" or not, but I see how some people would.

It does open up a whole new level of discussion, though. If time is a trait, is magic then aswell? I mean, there're different traits of Magic on different planes, why shouldn't you dictate what's right and wrong on your own little corner of the world/multiverse?

Anyway, thanks for the answer! Now I'm one step closer to winning D&D as a Batman Wizard. Or something.

It's a trait. But traits are not explicitly on the list of things that Genesis lets you set. Doing so is a potentially valid interpretation of the text, but also a potentially invalid one too. Consult Your DM (tm).

[JonestheSpy]

My personal opinion: Any DM who lets his players get away with the speeded-up time demiplane trick should just hang up their dice and get a job lying in front of a department store with a big "WELCOME" painted on their back.

[hewhosaysfish]

I thought the interpretation of the Genesis spell was based around the observation that the Psionic version specifically states that the time trait is not among those you can manipulate but that the spell version omits this limitation but otherwise uses the same wording to lay out what you control.

Interestingly, the spell version the spell version also omits the line stating that the ground must be made out of dirt as oposed to e.g. gold, diamonds, adamantine, etc.

[Sinfire Titan]

Hence the "Or something". I'm not very good at powergaming.

This isn't power gaming, it's game breaking. There's a serious difference. People point out that Wizards can do this to add emphasis to the gap between a Wizard and a noncaster of any class. Out of all of the noncasters, only a handful are capable of using this trick (all of which require UMD to cast Genesis in the first place). Those are the Incarnate, the Truenamer, and the Artificer (technically counts as a noncaster). No other classes in the game have a class feature that can teleport them to the plane at their leisure (Artificer can craft the items as a class feature, the Incarnate has a Soulmeld that produces Gate 1/week, and the Truenamer's highest Lexicon has a Gate Utterance that has a lower DC than the other two lexicons).



It's not to be used in an actual campaign unless the player holds a lot of power back

[JeenLeen]

I thought the interpretation of the Genesis spell was based around the observation that the Psionic version specifically states that the time trait is not among those you can manipulate but that the spell version omits this limitation but otherwise uses the same wording to lay out what you control.

Interestingly, the spell version the spell version also omits the line stating that the ground must be made out of dirt as oposed to e.g. gold, diamonds, adamantine, etc.

Since the psionic version costs 1000 xp and the spell 5000 xp, I would interpret that as meaning the spell version does allow such manipulations as the material of the ground or time traits. (Not saying I would allow or try it in game, though.)

If the xp costs were the same, I would say the spell version was meant to have the same effect as the psionic, but just lacked an explicit statement.

[Tyndmyr]

TL;DR: How does a Wizard (any level) create his own plane?

Well, if you fabricate enough aluminum, and happen to be in eberron, you can bind fire elementals into the engines. Air elementals may possibly also work.

[Optimystik]

Since the psionic version costs 1000 xp and the spell 5000 xp, I would interpret that as meaning the spell version does allow such manipulations as the material of the ground or time traits. (Not saying I would allow or try it in game, though.)

If the xp costs were the same, I would say the spell version was meant to have the same effect as the psionic, but just lacked an explicit statement.

I would have to agree. Quintuple the XP = more leeway.

I also agree with Sinfire; this is the kind of thing you do at the end of a campaign to retire your character in a flashy way, not some kind of tactical consideration.

Well, if you fabricate enough aluminum, and happen to be in eberron, you can bind fire elementals into the engines. Air elementals may possibly also work.

Ba-dum-tish

[Kylarra]

Yeah, despite my earlier post, I will reiterate as everyone else said, this is firmly TO territory.

[Kobold-Bard]

I think it takes a Divine Rank of 11/16 to alter a God's Realm's traits. If I'm right having a Level 17 Wizard be able to do it is just silly.

[Optimystik]

I think it takes a Divine Rank of 11/16 to alter a God's Realm's traits. If I'm right having a Level 17 Wizard be able to do it is just silly.

But technically, if you create a plane, you're the god of it. After all, you made it!

[Tyndmyr]

Well, there's also the difference between plane and demiplane. Genesis creates a rather small plane in comparison to the standard planes, many of which are traditionally considered unlimited in size.

I definitely think it'd be harder to alter the attributes of those planes, and genesis definitely does not allow altering of existing planar attributes.

[RS14]

Time is a trait. You get to dictate traits in the plane if you use Genesis. It is not explicit, however, if time is one of those traits, but it may be.

Either that or you plane shift to an already known plane with a time flow trait to your liking.

I've always argued that while time is a trait of the plane, it is not one of "factors such as atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain," and so the spellcaster cannot control it.

The problem with the later option is that there may not exist any planes with a useful time flow trait. Even if time proceeds faster in the plane, it may not be fast enough to be useful.

[JellyPooga]

psshh! Why would you want a demiplane with a faster time than your home material plane? That way, things change rapidly in your plane compared to on the material...I hope you didn't leave any fruit in your fruit-bowl on your demi-plane; it'll all be rotten by the time you get back! Much better to have it the other way round. Spend 8 hours bogging around with your mates on the material plane and only a round has passed 'at home'...it has practical applications too:

- Your mate has aquired a horribly wasting disease and only a certain item can cure it? Send him to your demi-plane (but don't let him near the sofa...urgh! He can keep his disease to himself, thank you very much, without wiping all over the furniture) to relax for a while whilst you go off and quest for the cure. What took you 3 weeks was only a day or so to him.

- Have a dangerous criminal/BBEG on your hands that you need to deal with but don't yet have the means? Send him packing to your Demiplane. By the time he's escaped, you've had ages to prepare and grow strong.

- Limited duration effects on your demiplane are multiplied tenfold in comparison to the material...a single Sunrod will light your home for a week!

[Zeta Kai]

a single Sunrod will light your home for a week!

A week to observers outside the demiplane; to those within the demiplane, it would still have the standard duration.

Also, this kind of slow-mo pocket plane would be good for storing things, but it would be undesirable to actually go into it yourself, because the "real world" would be moving so much faster, & you'd therefore miss events during even the briefest of trips inside your demiplane. It would best be served as storage, so what you've essentially made was a 9th-level Handy Haversack. Underwhelming use, if you ask me; I'd rather have the fast-time version.

[hamishspence]

a god's realm is usually a small area of their home plane though.

For example, Moradin can't alter the whole of the Seven Mounting Heavens- but he can alter the part that is his.

[JellyPooga]

A week to observers outside the demiplane; to those within the demiplane, it would still have the standard duration.

Also, this kind of slow-mo pocket plane would be good for storing things, but it would be undesirable to actually go into it yourself, because the "real world" would be moving so much faster, & you'd therefore miss events during even the briefest of trips inside your demiplane. It would best be served as storage, so what you've essentially made was a 9th-level Handy Haversack. Underwhelming use, if you ask me; I'd rather have the fast-time version.

You'd miss events in the real world, but that just means that if you get bored of what's going on there (or it becomes too dangerous for some reason), you can retreat to your slow-mo-world, hang out for a year or so and come back when your grandchildren are grandparents, 50 years later...everything will be all shaken up since you last made an appearance in the real world and you'll get a reputation for being immortal and mysteriously turning up at opportune moments in history! That'd be awesome...

[Cyclocone]

I think it takes a Divine Rank of 11/16 to alter a God's Realm's traits. If I'm right having a Level 17 Wizard be able to do it is just silly.

IIRC, a 17th level Wizard can hack a divine realm with Planar Perinarch (SpC or Planar Handbook).

[Tyndmyr]

You'd miss events in the real world, but that just means that if you get bored of what's going on there (or it becomes too dangerous for some reason), you can retreat to your slow-mo-world, hang out for a year or so and come back when your grandchildren are grandparents, 50 years later...everything will be all shaken up since you last made an appearance in the real world and you'll get a reputation for being immortal and mysteriously turning up at opportune moments in history! That'd be awesome...

That would be pretty cool...could make for an interesting aspect to a plot, too.

IMO, variable time actually provides the only realistic reason I can imagine for making more than one demiplane.

[Lysander]

You're forgetting something. Your plane isn't really an independent dimension. It's more like a remodeled area of the ethereal plane.

Effect: A demiplane coterminous with the Ethereal Plane, centered on your location

A character can only cast this spell while on the Ethereal Plane. When he or she casts the spell, a local density fluctuation precipitates the creation of a demiplane. At first, the fledgling plane grows at a rate of 1 foot in radius per day to an initial maximum radius of 180 feet as it rapidly draws substance from surrounding ethereal vapors and protomatter.

So it's a coterminous plane surrounded by the ethereal plane. And what's a coterminous plane?

Planes that touch at specific points are coterminous. Where they touch, a connection exists, and travelers can leave one reality behind and enter the other.

So the spell's effect is to make a bubble of terrain, with whatever rocks dirt and bodies of water you choose, surrounded by the ethereal. Theoretically the denizens of the ethereal plane could walk right in.

But that doesn't tell us how time or gravity operates. Fortunately that's also covered:

Unless otherwise noted in a description, it is assumed every plane has the normal gravity trait.

Unless otherwise noted in a description, every plane has the normal time trait.

Genesis doesn't note how time or gravity operates, therefore it's the same as the material plane. The factors it lists you can change:

The spellcaster determines factors such as atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain.

Unless your DM considers gravity/time to be the same thing as temperature and topography then you can't alter that.

[Fishy]

Does 'filled with snakes' count as a trait?

Is that joke too old?

[Tyndmyr]

Isn't the material plain coterminous with the etherial plane and plane of shadow?

Yes, you *can* travel between them, but it's not as if you can just walk from one to the other, and they are certainly not the same...just one overlaid on the other.