Making Sorcerer more than 5 levels long (3.5)

[JellyPooga]

So with a total lack of any class features after 1st level, the Sorcerer will usually want to take a Prestige Class as soon as possible. With the advent of Alternative Class Features and Racial Substitution Levels, however, it's tempting to see exactly how much we can get out of this otherwise featureless class before being forced to admit that taking a Prestige Class is the only real option.

So here's what I have so far:

Racial Substitution Levels

Dragonblood Sorcerer (Races of the Dragon): 1, 4 and 7
Dwarf Sorcerer (Races of Stone): 1, 5 and 9
Planar Sorcerer (Planar Handbook): 5, 9 and 13

Alternative Class Features

{table]Level|Name (Source)|Replaces|Benefit
1|Metamagic Specialist (PHB II)|Familiar|Faster Metamagic x/day
1|Divine Companion (Complete Champion)|Familiar|Spell Energy store to Heal/Shield
1|Stalwart Sorcerer (Complete Mage)|Spells Known|Bonus HP and Weapon Focus
1|Battle Sorcerer (Unearthed Arcana)|Spells Known and per day|3/4 BAB and Armoured Casting
1|Spell Shield (Dungeonscape)|Familiar|Expend spell slots instead of taking damage
1|Drakken Familiar (Dragon Magic)|Familiar Abilities|Familiar gains Drakken template
5|Domain Access (Complete Champion)|Spells Known|Domain[/table]

So with these in mind, I would suggest the following (to get the most out of Sorcerer):

Race: Draconic Dwarf (using Level Adjustment BuyBack at 3rd to alleviate the LA from Draconic)

{table]Lvl|Class|ACF
1|Battle Sorcerer|Stalwart Sorcerer, Spell Shield
2-3|Battle Sorcerer|-
4|Dragonblood Sorcerer|-
5|Dwarf Sorcerer|-
6|Battle Sorcerer|-
7|Dragonblood Sorcerer|-
8|Battle Sorcerer|-
9|Dwarf Sorcerer|-
10-12|Battle Sorcerer|-
13|Planar Sorcerer|-
14+|PrC|-[/table]

This particular combination (at level 13) grants 8 levels of 3/4 BAB and 5 levels of 1/2 BAB, which (should you use partial BAB) is a +8 BAB (or you could argue that the 3/4 BAB from Battle Sorcerer carries onto the Racial Substitution levels, in which case you'd have a +9 BAB at 13th); two better than a standard Sorcerer. You'll have 8d8+2d6+3d4+26 HP (not including Con), Proficiency with 2 Martial Weapons and Light Armour, Weapon Focus, a Spell-like Ability 3/day, Spont Cast Summon Monster, +50% range and +1 Save DC (against ground-borne enemies) and the ability to sacrifice spell slots to alleviate damage. The cost of this is a pretty hefty whack to your Spells Known, admittedly, but I think it might just be worth it due to the wording of the various abilities...

Battle Sorcerer hits you for one Spell Known per spell level to a minimum of 1.
Stalwart Sorcerer hits your highest level Spells Known for 1, again to a minimum of 1.
Dragonblood Sorcerer effectively reduces your Spells Known for 1 spell level by 1 (usually the Spell Level one below your highest) at 4th, but effectively gives you a bonus level 2 Spell Known at 7th.
Dwarf Sorcerer reduces your 2nd and 4th level spells by 1, but the wording is such that it doesn't reduce the number but stops you learning that Spell Known at the appropriate level. This means that you can still cast 2nd level spells at 5th level, for example.
Planar Sorcerer works similarly to Dwarf Sorcerer but for 6th level.

Put all of this together and you'll end up with something like this (assuming you take a Full-Caster PrC after 13th:

{table]Lvl|0|1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9
1|3|1|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
2|4|1|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
3|4|1|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
4|5|2-1|1|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
5|5|3-1|1|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
6|6|3-1|1|1|-|-|-|-|-|-
7|6|3+1|0+2-1|0+1|-|-|-|-|-|-
8|7|3+1|0+2-1|0+1|1|-|-|-|-|-
9|7|3+1|1+2|1+1-1|1|-|-|-|-|-
10|8|3+1|1+2|1+1-1|1|1|-|-|-|-
11|8|3+1|2+2|2+1-1|1|1|-|-|-|-
12|8|3+1|2+2|2+1-1|1|1|1|-|-|-
13|8|3+1|2+2|2+1|2|2-1|1|-|-|-
14|8|3+1|2+2|2+1|2|2-1|1|1|-|-
15|8|3+1|2+2|2+1|2|3-1|1|1|-|-
16|8|3+1|2+2|2+1|2|3-1|1|1|1|-
17|8|3+1|2+2|2+1|2|3|1|2-1|1|-
18|8|3+1|2+2|2+1|2|3|1|2-1|1|1
19|8|3+1|2+2|2+1|2|3|1|2|2-1|1
20|8|3+1|2+2|2+1|2|3|1|2|2-1|1[/table]

(*The -1 and +1/+2 is from the level 4 and 7 Dragonblood RSL respectively)

This is actually worse than I first thought now I've typed it out! I was going to incorporate the Domain Access ACF, but that (due to interaction with the other ACFs/RSLs) would actually reduce some levels' Spells Known to 0 (notably levels 6 and 9). Without using the Extra Spell Known Feat or Draconic Legacy, I don't know of any way to improve this table any, but if there is a Feat or Feats that add multiple Spells Known, then taking the Domain Access ACF might be a valid choice.

So, I've got a Sorcerer to level 13 without taking a PrC; he's most likely to end up somewhere on the front line; with +4 Con, 26 bonus HP and Spell Shield he can take a fair amount of punishment. With the right selection of his (very limited!) Spells Known, he could be a fairly effective combat mage. Sure, he's probably not optimal, but I like to think he might be effective.

Thoughts, suggestions, comments or criticisms? Any and all are welcome...

[Gnaeus]

I think your sorcerer will be hard to play, especially at certain levels, Lets look at lev 7.

Hit points are good, but your AC will be weak. You could fix that with spells like Blur and Blink, but then you have no second or third level spells.

BaB of +4 at level 7 is weak. You could fix that with spells like wraithstrike, but again if you do that you have nothing else.

Essentially, you have cut out the heart of a caster, which is versatility in what he is doing, for a few HP, light armor, and a martial weapon. I think that a Warmage would work better for what you are doing than your character, and THAT is a very bad sign. I am certain that a duskblade would fit this concept better (more hp, better bab, more spells known).

[Thrice Dead Cat]

The main problem with using battle sorcerer is you're going to know fewer spells, which are already at a premium for a sorcerer. There are a few prestige classes that give extra spells, but due to the nature of battle and/or stalwart sorcerer, the character is still down a spell down even when taking prestige class levels.

[JellyPooga]

I don't deny that versatility has been more than a little killed, but for a combat mage how many spells do you really need?

Let's take Level 7 (as you say) and really have a look at it...

BAB: +4
HD: 4d8+1d6+2d4+14 (Average: 44 before Con modifier)
Martial Weapon Prof. in 2 Weapons: Dwarven Waraxe and Longbow
Weapon Focus: Longbow
Light Armour Proficiency + Armoured Casting (Light)

Spells Known (looking at Core only spells)
Lvl.1 : Bless, Enlarge Person, Shield, True Strike
Lvl.2 : Fog Cloud OR Resist Energy (the other becomes an SLA 3/day)
Lvl.3 : Fly

Spells/Day
Lvl.1 : 5
Lvl.2 : 5
Lvl.3 : 3

For the sake of argument, let's use an Elite Array to give us stats of;

STR:12
DEX:14
CON:13
INT:8
WIS:10
CHA:15

After Racial Stat modifiers, this will look like;

STR:14
DEX:14
CON:17
INT:8
WIS:10
CHA:15

Add one to Con for the Lvl.4 Stat upgrade and that's another 4 HP per level (increasing our total to 72 on average). A Barbarian of equivalent level and Con will have 80 on average...we're not too far behind the HP curve for the front-line. To put it into perspective, the Barbarian is getting 6.5 HP per level and this Sorcerer is getting the same for each of his non-RSL levels (though his range of 3-10 is smaller than the Barbarians 1-12).

Our Attack bonus isn't great...+4 BAB and +2 Str gives us a total of +6 to hit in melee. Our ranged attacks are a little better at +7. We can hit someone in Medium Armour about 50/50, but not a lot better. True strike does a little to alleviate this, but it reduces our attacks to 1/two rounds, which is not good. However, we do have Fly and a decent ranged weapon, so against non-flyers, we're on to a winner. We can take our time to pick them off from the safety of the air. This is something a Warmage could not do.

WBL is 19,000, which will happily buy you a decent set of +2 Mithral Breastplate Armour (+3 if you want to push the boat out). The addition of the Battle Caster Feat allows us to use this breastplate to give us an AC of around 24 (+7 Armour, +1 Natural +2 Dex +4 Shield). Not astonishingly good, but vs. a 7HD foe with full BAB, you're looking at them needing a +7 Str mod (or equivalent) to hit you 50% of the time...not too shabby considering that most enemies won't have full BAB.

Now we can move on to spells. Enlarge Person boosts Str up to 16. whilst it doesn't help out attack bonus, it will increase our melee damage by around 3 or 4 points as well as giving us a 10ft reach. Bless boosts everyones Attack Bonus by 1 and Resist Energy gives us a little protection from elemental damage. Then Spell Shield also allows us to ignore up to 15 points of damage from a single source each round at the cost of a spell slot...with this, you're looking at an extra 30HP (effectively) if you only burn 1 or 2 slots from each spell level. Fog Cloud can be handy if everything starts going pear shaped.

All told, I don't think this is too shabby. Not 'optimal' perhaps, but I think he could put up a fight. I'm sure there are better 1st level spells that he could take outside of core.

[root9125]

I don't deny that versatility has been more than a little killed, but for a combat mage how many spells do you really need?

Fireball, and a metric ton of slots for it. At level 7, my Warmage could cast it 5/day.

Add one to Con for the Lvl.4 Stat upgrade and that's another 4 HP per level (increasing our total to 72 on average). A Barbarian of equivalent level and Con will have 80 on average...we're not too far behind the HP curve for the front-line. To put it into perspective, the Barbarian is getting 6.5 HP per level and this Sorcerer is getting the same for each of his non-RSL levels (though his range of 3-10 is smaller than the Barbarians 1-12).

I'll give you this, you have HP, but you've had to work so hard for it, you've neglected doing actual damage.

Our Attack bonus isn't great...+4 BAB and +2 Str gives us a total of +6 to hit in melee. Our ranged attacks are a little better at +7. We can hit someone in Medium Armour about 50/50, but not a lot better. True strike does a little to alleviate this, but it reduces our attacks to 1/two rounds, which is not good. However, we do have Fly and a decent ranged weapon, so against non-flyers, we're on to a winner. We can take our time to pick them off from the safety of the air. This is something a Warmage could not do.

My warmage burns one feat on prepared spellcasting, qualifies for Mage of the Arcane Order, (Warmage 6/MotAO 1) and holds Fly in his mind any time he thinks he might need it. One feat, and *better* spells. As a *Warmage*. As a side note, his HD are 6+5d6+1d4+6*CON. That's, using your stats, ~50 HP.

WBL is 19,000, which will happily buy you a decent set of +2 Mithral Breastplate Armour (+3 if you want to push the boat out). The addition of the Battle Caster Feat allows us to use this breastplate to give us an AC of around 24 (+7 Armour, +1 Natural +2 Dex +4 Shield). Not astonishingly good, but vs. a 7HD foe with full BAB, you're looking at them needing a +7 Str mod (or equivalent) to hit you 50% of the time...not too shabby considering that most enemies won't have full BAB.

This part is true. But if the DM's putting NPCs with MARTIAL class levels against your sorcerer 7, they deserve the pain and suffering of their poor little NPCs.

Now we can move on to spells. Enlarge Person boosts Str up to 16. whilst it doesn't help out attack bonus, it will increase our melee damage by around 3 or 4 points as well as giving us a 10ft reach. Bless boosts everyones Attack Bonus by 1 and Resist Energy gives us a little protection from elemental damage. Then Spell Shield also allows us to ignore up to 15 points of damage from a single source each round at the cost of a spell slot...with this, you're looking at an extra 30HP (effectively) if you only burn 1 or 2 slots from each spell level. Fog Cloud can be handy if everything starts going pear shaped.

All told, I don't think this is too shabby. Not 'optimal' perhaps, but I think he could put up a fight. I'm sure there are better 1st level spells that he could take outside of core.

It's not bad. It's not great, and if you have your heart set on this guy, awesome, enjoy. But my Warmage does it better, and as someone noted, that's scary.

[Kylarra]

To be honest, all told, that looks like something that would be better served by playing a straight cleric.

Now, I realize that yes, cleric can be optimized to tier 1 and sorc is "merely" tier 2, but let's look at the stats.


BAB: +4 vs +5 -- Win Cleric
HD: 4d8+1d6+2d4+14 vs 7D8
aka: ~44 vs ~31.5 - you come out slightly ahead, but considering you took an ACF and I'm just burning straight cleric, it's not too unexpected. Note, cleric can wear fullplate to your mithril breastplate, if AC matters, and cleric has divine power 1/day at this point (assuming no bonus slots). -- Win Sorc-ish
Spells --- Win Cleric, note to match your spell choices exactly we need to take strength and travel domains which aren't exactly optimal, but considering what we're comparing, I'm not caring too much.

Cleric does lose out on the martial weapon proficiency, but eh. I think we can all agree that spells > +1 damage on average.

[Gnaeus]

My warmage burns one feat on prepared spellcasting, qualifies for Mage of the Arcane Order, (Warmage 6/MotAO 1) and holds Fly in his mind any time he thinks he might need it. One feat, and *better* spells. As a *Warmage*. As a side note, his HD are 6+5d6+1d4+6*CON. That's, using your stats, ~50 HP.

It's not bad. It's not great, and if you have your heart set on this guy, awesome, enjoy. But my Warmage does it better, and as someone noted, that's scary.

Yeah. And lest you think MotAO is the problem, the warmage has multiple ways to severely outclass your sorcerer. Sandshaper PRC gives him a list full of buffs, debuffs and summons. Arcane Disciple feat gives him access to his favorite domain of spells, so he can imitate your fly if he chooses. That isn't even getting to the cheesy warmage PRCs like rainbow servant.

Your character is playable, but it is a serious nerf to the Sorcerer. Warmage would outperform it. Warlock or DFA would outperform it. Normal gish builds (like Paladin 2, Sorc X) would outperform it. Adept would come close. Healer could beat it if BoED is in play.

[Shadwen]

No matter the way you set things up, as a sorcerer you will be forced to take a prestige class. Its the only real way. Otherwise you are lacking. Play a wizard if you want to blow things up. Play a sorcerer if you dont wanna have to think...and want to end up multiclassing or prestiging to something greater sooner.

[Bosh]

Far far easier fix: nerf all prestige classes (except for ones like mystic theurge) so that NO PrC's first level advances you caster level.

There, done.

[JellyPooga]

Yeah. And lest you think MotAO is the problem, the warmage has multiple ways to severely outclass your sorcerer. Sandshaper PRC gives him a list full of buffs, debuffs and summons. Arcane Disciple feat gives him access to his favorite domain of spells, so he can imitate your fly if he chooses. That isn't even getting to the cheesy warmage PRCs like rainbow servant.

I hate to point out the obvious, but couldn't my Sorcerer take exactly those options himself to expand his spell list?

Arguing that a Warmage would be better based on him PrCing out of Warmage or that he can take a feat for a little extra versatility when the Sorcerer can do exactly that as well, is no argument at all.

I'll say it again, he's far from optimal. I was just wondering how viable it could be. I still think he could work (and I'm not convinced that Warmage is better...about the only thing a Warmage can do is blast...I, at least, have some degree of flexibility such that, even given feats, a Warmage won't have any particular advantage over me).

Does anyone know of any feats other than Extra Spell Known or Draconic Legacy (which requires 4 Draconic feats to qualify for...owch!) that will add spells to my list of Spells Known?

[Gnaeus]

I hate to point out the obvious, but couldn't my Sorcerer take exactly those options himself to expand his spell list?

Arguing that a Warmage would be better based on him PrCing out of Warmage or that he can take a feat for a little extra versatility when the Sorcerer can do exactly that as well, is no argument at all.

You can...and you can't... and you can but you wouldn't.

You can take Arcane Disciple, but it only adds spells to your class spell list, not your spells known list. So it is good for classes that know all the spells on their list, mediocre for normal sorcerers, and bad for your sorcerer whose problem is not knowing enough spells, not in having good spells available on their list.

You can spend feats getting into PRCs, but bear in mind that the Warmage is a couple feats up on you, because he starts with abilities (like armored casting) that you are spending feats on.

Finally, if you add an ability to multiclass and/or PRC, what is the point of your build? You are a limited caster with decent hp, light armor and some martial weapons, for example, but Paladin 2/Sorcerer 6/Abjurant Champion 5 (for example) is better at your trick. Taking prestige classes like sandshaper will return you to versatility at a cost of feats, and caster levels, and combat skill.

[valadil]

Each spell is costlier than the last. I ran a bunch of battle sorc NPCs. Spells known were rough, but I managed to cram everything important/relevant in there. I don't think I could have done it with any fewer spells though. There are only so many spells you can whittle away before nothing is left.

Sorcerer is less optimal than wizard, but it's still a high tier class. I played a straight sorc for a one shot game with a new group earlier this year. I didn't know how powergamey they were and I didn't want to dominate the game and alienate people I didn't know. I still had to hold back when we were playing.

[ericgrau]

1. Try the homebrew section.
2. Satisfying pre-reqs is a pain since sorcerers don't have many feats and b/c they can't just write a spell down and use it as a pre-req. So sorcerers actually lose a great deal from PrCing due to pre-reqs. Depending on what books you have the sorcerer class could go as long as 13 levels before you have a PrC worth taking.
3. All other classes also tend to PrC out around level 6 or 7. The issue there is that PrCs are usually just plain stronger period.
4. The real benefit to this idea is that it provides some interesting variation other than "you get no class features except spells" (zzz).

[Aldizog]

Far far easier fix: nerf all prestige classes (except for ones like mystic theurge) so that NO PrC's first level advances you caster level.

I agree. This should have been done from the beginning for 3E.

[ericgrau]

Ooh that is a good idea.

[Fizban]

Note: you don't have to take Draconic, you can use a Fireblood Dwarf from the same book as the substitution level.

Anyway, I agree with all of the above that you lose way too many spells known. Even losing only one of your highest for Stalwart is too much unless you're focused on casting one spell ever. The only exceptions would be the ones that lose you a spell known in return for more "spells known", like the spontaneous summoning (though it loses almost all it's versatility, fiendish giant bugs can grapple anything). If I were going to put together alt levels, I'd try and take all the ones that give you a slight up on spells known, like the Dragonblood and Raptoran, as well as Planar 12th. The problem with these is they give you more spells numerically at the cost of a drop in quality, but you can make them work if you try, and get some tricks you wouldn't normally have.

Battle Sorcerer is a great class for NPCs, and you could use it as a compromise in a mostly martial game if you didn't want to use Psychic Warrior, but it's not very good for a PC unless you do find some high powered alternate features for the endgame, since when you finally do PrC out, you lose the increased HD and BAB but keep the reduced spellcasting. A gish is better off just playing a straight caster until the PrCs are available, after which he will catch up to the battle sorcerer without gimping his spellcasting.

I really like the Spell Shield variant, but after the first few levels it starts to suck. Compare to the vigor power, which gives you 5hp/point spent, while the shield is 5hp/spell level. You lose out on 5hp every spell level you go past first. The immediate action is nice, but you can also fail it if you botch your roll, and it's better to have preventative temporary hp than to mitigate part of the damage from one attack.

If you picked your variants carefully I think you could manage to hold off on taking a PrC until after 10th though, which would make the class feel a lot longer.

[taltamir]

the problem of a sorcerer is that it has no features whatsoever beyond first level... so taking a PrC ASAP gives you features.

The ops build has features, but to get it you actually take on a level adjustment AND sacrifice spells known...
A straight sorcerer is better because he does not have to worry about LA; and you still have a feat every 3 HD.
And ideal still remains sorc 5 + PrCs...

Now, I am not saying this can't be played or isn't an interesting build. just that it is not an improvement over sorcerer.

And 26 HP extra at level 13 is irrelevant... so is attack bonus.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I don't deny that versatility has been more than a little killed, but for a combat mage how many spells do you really need?

I cannot believe someone just said this seriously...

You need versatility in combat, or you are going to get screwed by immunities/heavy resistances.

For what you are describing, Warmage is better in every particular and in every regard. There is literally no reason to take this over Warmage, and every reason to take Warmage over this.

That's... pretty darn bad.

They are supposed to be casters, not Gish. Let them be so. Versatility in spell options is absolutely vital for a caster to be able to deal with resistances/immunities/stacked resists of a particular flavor.