Making Magic Items Rare and the Economy more Realistic (3.5)

[Elves-as-People]

Now, to be clear, I don't want to remove all magic items - I want them to feel more magical. Which means fewer of them, and reducing the dependency on them for all characters.

I'd prefer to do this with as little change to the mechanics of the characters themselves as possible. I generally prefer low level games so I'd like to start with levels 1-10 and then think about higher level games. How can I best change monsters to make magic items less necessary, or perhaps not necessary at all, to defeat them? I'd like to make treasure less common, and hopefully thereby more special, by also changing the economy to focus more on all aspects of currency (i.e., adventurers that still care about silver at level 5).

I know this is a pretty huge task, which is why I'd like to get some community input before I start. Also, has anyone tried something similar already? If so, please show me the link to your work. Thanks.

[Siosilvar]

Can't find the link to the thread right now, but there was one not too long ago that suggested the following monetary system:

100 cp = 1 sp = 1/100 gp.
Use listed prices, but make them silver instead of gold.


One idea I (and probably many other people) have been playing around with is simply removing magical plusses from weapons (possibly armor, and maybe even other items), leaving them with special abilities only.

[Bibliomancer]

Can't find the link to the thread right now, but there was one not too long ago that suggested the following monetary system:

100 cp = 1 sp = 1/100 gp.
Use listed prices, but make them silver instead of gold.


One idea I (and probably many other people) have been playing around with is simply removing magical plusses from weapons (possibly armor, and maybe even other items), leaving them with special abilities only.

You could replace the pluses of weapons with different levels of masterwork. For example a

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katana

is probably better than a masterwork bastard sword. This would mean you'd have something like "normal"

"exceptional"

"exceptional" +1 attack

"masterwork" +2 attack +1 damage

"superb" +3 attack +2 damage

"famous" +4 attack +4 damage

"legendary" +5 attack +5 damage.

Anything above masterwork would require prying it out of a high level warblade's cold dead fingers or finding a master smith, getting them to owe one a couple of favors, and waiting for a year.

To get rid of other magic items, you could reduce the need for magic-use items by allowing all characters to tap something called the Spellforce for free, giving them a number of spell-like abilities (ie 1/day/level, max level of new spell-like ability character level divided by four minimum one). This gives all classes access to boosts etc. This explains why magic items are less common: because most people, even adventurers, don't need them. Thus, the ones left over are expensive, rare, custom built, and powerful.

[Elves-as-People]

Any ideas for changes to monsters that would help smooth the lack of magic items? I don't really want to give more characters random magic powers, and I've already thought of ways to tame the more ridiculous combat spells.

[Milskidasith]

Wait, if you've tamed the more ridiculous combat spells, you should be sharing that with us... balancing the wizard has been a constant issue. Anyway, as for making monsters tougher... if you just use masterwork items+ as better weapons, then all you really need to do is lower the save DCs (because a +1 cloak of resistance isn't going to be something you find) and get rid of enemies that fly, have high DR, or have other things that need magic to bypass them.

[Moridin]

Reducing the monster's DR and / or changing the items that bypass them (replace everything /magic with /silver, for example). You could eliminate the DR as well, but then you should give the monster more AC or fast healing to compensate.

Giving the character's AC bonus as they progress in level. This rule comes from the Wheel of Time RPG (a setting with not that many magical items) and Unearthed Arcana. Something like 2/3 for fighters, 1/2 for rogues and 1/3 of the class level for mages might suffice. This could be a dodge bonus or an armor bonus. I actually prefer to make it an armor bonus, as it doesn't make touch spells suck. Anyway, this rule could be used if you get rid of all (or almost all) items of protection (magical armor, shield, amulets of natural armor, rings of protection).

Making more weapon focus and weapon specialization feats (so that the bonus can be +3, +4, +5, etc), and allowing other kind of combatant classes (paladins, rangers, etc) to acquire them at a higher level than fighter.

Those are the ideas I can think of now. Unearthed Arcana actually has lots of cool ideas for optional rules, like giving common armor DR (another thing that could make the lack of magical protection less terrible).

[Elves-as-People]

Wait, if you've tamed the more ridiculous combat spells, you should be sharing that with us... balancing the wizard has been a constant issue. Anyway, as for making monsters tougher... if you just use masterwork items+ as better weapons, then all you really need to do is lower the save DCs (because a +1 cloak of resistance isn't going to be something you find) and get rid of enemies that fly, have high DR, or have other things that need magic to bypass them.

They aren't completely tamed, but I've replaced save or die with 2 saves or reduced to 2hp/HD, and given all the power words saves. It seems to help a lot.

I'm not trying to totally eliminate magic items, but I think limiting flying monsters to much higher levels and not allowing aerial casting are definitely in order. Lowering DC's is also a good idea. Any suggestion about how much to do so by?

Reducing the monster's DR and / or changing the items that bypass them (replace everything /magic with /silver, for example). You could eliminate the DR as well, but then you should give the monster more AC or fast healing to compensate.

Giving the character's AC bonus as they progress in level. This rule comes from the Wheel of Time RPG (a setting with not that many magical items) and Unearthed Arcana. Something like 2/3 for fighters, 1/2 for rogues and 1/3 of the class level for mages might suffice. This could be a dodge bonus or an armor bonus. I actually prefer to make it an armor bonus, as it doesn't make touch spells suck. Anyway, this rule could be used if you get rid of all (or almost all) items of protection (magical armor, shield, amulets of natural armor, rings of protection).

Making more weapon focus and weapon specialization feats (so that the bonus can be +3, +4, +5, etc), and allowing other kind of combatant classes (paladins, rangers, etc) to acquire them at a higher level than fighter.

Those are the ideas I can think of now. Unearthed Arcana actually has lots of cool ideas for optional rules, like giving common armor DR (another thing that could make the lack of magical protection less terrible).

Replacing Higher DR with higher AC could work, or higher HP. Maybe I'll try alternating between the two fixes. And adding DR to PC armor would certainly help bridge the caster/non-caster gap. Also, I think DR/magic should be completely eliminated for this variant.

[Milskidasith]

Wait, 2 HP/HD? That... doesn't even make sense, because magic isn't usually related to HP, unless you mean it only affects things with d4 hit dice and a constitution penalty.

[Elves-as-People]

They are reduced to 2hp/HD by the previously save or die effects, after 2 saves. It's worked OK so far. Feel free to suggest a better idea.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

I'm not trying to totally eliminate magic items, but I think limiting flying monsters to much higher levels and not allowing aerial casting are definitely in order.

Limiting flying monsters to much higher levels isn't necessary; even if your martial characters can't fly, they can use ranged weapons. I would, however, do something like reduce maneuverability by 1 step and halve fly speeds for most monsters, so they'd have to stay fairly close and can't just own the party from the sky.

Also, I think DR/magic should be completely eliminated for this variant.

Replacing it would probably be better than just eliminating it; /silver or /cold iron are good thematic choices.

Making more weapon focus and weapon specialization feats (so that the bonus can be +3, +4, +5, etc), and allowing other kind of combatant classes (paladins, rangers, etc) to acquire them at a higher level than fighter.

Weapon Spec is already plenty subpar. Don't make additions to that feat chain, just let it scale, say +1 plus +1 per 4 levels. That would also help with the magical pluses issue; you can have much better weapons, or this feat, or if you really want to focus on attack bonuses you can pick up a great weapon and take this feat.

[tribble]

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katana

Spoiler isn't necessary; I tried the joke and friggin' nobody got it.:sob:

[Milskidasith]

They are reduced to 2hp/HD by the previously save or die effects, after 2 saves. It's worked OK so far. Feel free to suggest a better idea.

So let me get this straight: I could blast them with a fireball, for 3.5 hp/hd, or I could hit them with a two save or take pathetic damage? Fireball does almost the same damage on a successful save!

That's not making the wizard's balanced, that's making a crapton of spells so useless they shouldn't even be printed and, oddly enough, making Evocation the only useful blaster spell. It still doesn't help the issue of caster's being unkillable, it just means they have to rely on stuff like Forcecage instead of Waves of Exhaustion or metamagic'd orbs of X or getting a domain and casting Holy Word at level +20 or so.

EDIT: I realized that they are instead reduced to 2hp/hd, not damaged by that. It's still hardly useful, though, and honestly, if it takes two saves to do that, evocation is still the winner, which means that the new power kings are Psions. Go psions!

[Elves-as-People]

So let me get this straight: I could blast them with a fireball, for 3.5 hp/hd, or I could hit them with a two save or take pathetic damage? Fireball does almost the same damage on a successful save!

That's not making the wizard's balanced, that's making a crapton of spells so useless they shouldn't even be printed and, oddly enough, making Evocation the only useful blaster spell. It still doesn't help the issue of caster's being unkillable, it just means they have to rely on stuff like Forcecage instead of Waves of Exhaustion or metamagic'd orbs of X or getting a domain and casting Holy Word at level +20 or so.

EDIT: I realized that they are instead reduced to 2hp/hd, not damaged by that. It's still hardly useful, though, and honestly, if it takes two saves to do that, evocation is still the winner, which means that the new power kings are Psions. Go psions!

Honestly, I'd say the biggest thing we have going for keeping wizards in check is the lack of power gaming going on. The player who thinks he's a power gamer is a battle sorcerer with few defensive spells who's obsessed with fireball but never augments it with anything. If you have any better ideas please tell me, though, as I'd like to hear suggestions for balancing magic in the event of a sudden improvement on his understanding of the rules.

[Bibliomancer]

Spoiler isn't necessary; I tried the joke and friggin' nobody got it.:sob:

Well, I only heard about it from a heard on those boards. I guess there isn't much overlap.

[Krazddndfreek]

A quick n' dirty fix would be to have all the NPCs be non-monsters give them character classes and get magic items at half or less the rate that the PCs do. Maybe that would only work for higher levels, though. I tried

[Rettu Skcollob]

This thread has a rather interesting discussion of economics in the D&D world, though I don't think it's exactly what you're going for.

[Elves-as-People]

This thread has a rather interesting discussion of economics in the D&D world, though I don't think it's exactly what you're going for.

It's definitely part of it. It's something I'd very much like to improve upon to make the game more interesting to my less hack and slash-y gamer motives.

Edit: I read more of that thread. I love it. Actual anthropological thought in d&d ftw. AMAZINGLY GOOD!

[lesser_minion]

In Ars Magica, magic and magic items were traded as part of a completely separate economy to mundane goods and services - it was actually illegal for a wizard to trade magical goods for mundane goods or services.

The basic unit of magical currency was the pawn, made up of a fixed quantity of 'raw vis'.

10 pawns made a rook, and 10 rooks made a queen.

Raw vis was only available in tiny quantities - a major covenant might gather a hundred pawns per year, and possibly have a thousand or so in reserve - and was a required ingredient of any ritual magic or enchanted device.

Something along those lines might be a handy, easily-implemented way of controlling magic item access from a fluff perspective, and it would also lead to a more realistic economy (in Ars Magica, any sort of permanent creation spell would consume a quantity of vis, meaning that economy-breaker spells weren't all that useful).

[Lysander]

You could give each class a number of bonus feats to make up for the lack of magic items. That would be kind of nice, an adventure that's more about the character's talent and less about their "magic ruby earrings of battle achievement" or whatever. Or maybe play a gestalt game?

[Roderick_BR]

Here's some ideas I was thinking of doing with my current group:
Weapon's quality (like Bibliomancer's version): Have weapons at different qualities, going from +1 to +5 (both attack and damage). Still need to figure out costs.
Magic effects can be added only to weapons whose bonus is equal or above the enchantment's level.
For example, you can add a flaming property (+1) to a +1 or better weapon, but to make it flaming burst (+2), the weapon need to be +2 or better.
Add only one property per weapon (no +1 acidic burst/sonic burst/keen/vorpal scimitar).
This makes weapons with bonuses easier to get, and real magic weapons harder to find. You can buy the mundane +stuff weapons, but magic weapons can only be found or gained.
Same thing with armors.
Scrolls, wands, and the likes could be bough, but hard to find places that would sell it to you (or even trust you).
Potions and minor miscelaneous itens could be bough in more populated areas, in specializaed shoppings (same thing as scrolls, wands, etc)

[Lysander]

What if magic qualities could only be added to weapons/armor that "earned" it. So a wizard couldn't enchant a new sword, they'd need to apply the magic to a masterwork weapon that had racked up a huge kill count. Some requirements might vary, for instance a merciful blade might require non-fatal victories.

Maybe you could give weapons a sort of xp that represents the maximum amount of magic that can be placed on them. The more a sword does the more magical it can be made.

[Ouranos]

Legacy weapons might be a good way, they inherited magic generally from their owners deeds. The levels of master quality are nice, but lets take it a step further. Instead of regular armor from PHB being stock, lets make it base quality. This is the stuff an apprentice cranks out for mass sale to armies and such, cheapo crap. Then you have journeyman's mass produced stuff, things sergeants wear, which gets standard masterwork bonuses. Then the journeyman's special stuff would get the same effect as being a magical +1 sans the magic. Then the stuff the master makes for sale at the big markets, +2. The master's prime goods for request by officers or courtly knights, +3. Then the master's top of the line stuff, for kings and high ranking nobles. Then his secret master peices, the kind of stuff he works on in his free time and spends days on every tiny detail, right down to making each peice unique in it's own right, +5 stuff. You buy the item, and if you want an ability added, THAT is when you find the mage to enchant it for you, or at market the mage buys it, enchants it, then resells it for his costs+ another markup.

[Elves-as-People]

You could give each class a number of bonus feats to make up for the lack of magic items. That would be kind of nice, an adventure that's more about the character's talent and less about their "magic ruby earrings of battle achievement" or whatever. Or maybe play a gestalt game?

I definitely want the adventure to be more about their talent than their stuff, but I think the classes are strong enough as is (I'm considering giving toughness free at first level to prevent instant crit death, and having enemies that don't use axes). I'd much rather tame the more ridiculous monsters so that it becomes a character driven, low power campaign.

[Solaris]

Simple. Don't use the more ridiculous monsters.

[Elves-as-People]

What impact would low magic items have on CR, though?

[Solaris]

I suppose that's a more situational thing. You might like this link.
http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-3rd...-d-d-pdfs.html