Theurge + Breaking action economy = actualy worth trying?

[Arakune]

So, let's say you actualy can sling a ton of spells/powers in a single round. Does that make the theurge line of PrC worth trying? The most obvious that comes to mind is Psion/Wiz/Cerebremancer because of the SAD, telepath discipline with Schism, Temporal Acceleration for an early Time Stop-like power. Combine that with belt of battle and some shenanigans to say 'screw you' to the action economy and this prestige class is rescued from the fate of being killed with fire to not so useless?

[olelia]

Sorry to be slightly nickpicky, but is this for 3.X or Pathfinder? Both versions have their differences.

[Starbuck_II]

So, let's say you actualy can sling a ton of spells/powers in a single round. Does that make the theurge line of PrC worth trying? The most obvious that comes to mind is Psion/Wiz/Cerebremancer because of the SAD, telepath discipline with Schism, Temporal Acceleration for an early Time Stop-like power. Combine that with belt of battle and some shenanigans to say 'screw you' to the action economy and this prestige class is rescued from the fate of being killed with fire to not so useless?

In theory, correct.
Will it work it practice: possible. But till we have a report of someone trying it: hard to guage.

[Malacode]

Breaking action economy with any sort of mage is gonna end badly for your foes, theurge or not. That said, I think theurges have a harder time, given that they've got less access to the high-level spells/powers that make such loops possible. In Gestalt games, however... Yeah.

Oh, and Beholder Mage. 10 spells a round? At level 10? I'll take two.

[Zeta Kai]

It depends on how easy it is for you to pull this stunt off, how often you can do it, & how much your DM will allow such shenanigans. But in general, if you can break the action economy in your favor, vis a vis, consistently get more actions than your opponents, then you have won the game. Of course, there are easier ways of doing so than taking the theurge route, so it may not be optimal to choose that path.

[Optimystik]

Cerebremancer is useless? News to me.

I mean, sure you don't get metamagic shenanigans like some other theurges (Ultimate Magus and Anima Mage come to mind), but that doesn't make it useless.

[DragoonWraith]

Useless? No. Strictly inferior to straight Wizard or straight Psion? Yes, usually.

[Optimystik]

Useless? No. Strictly inferior to straight Wizard or straight Psion? Yes, usually.

Again, why? Just loss of the bonus feats? I'm sure with PA or Earth Spell or Illumian you can enter early enough that the theurgy goodness can start in time, like character level 4 (Psion 3/Wizard 1).

[Ryuuk]

It's because you delay you progression 3 levels on both sides, so you never get access to the higher end stuff and a Psion/Wizard of your level will always have much more powerful spells at his disposal.

Ah, if you're using a trick to enter early then it's a different story, you would only really be behind 1 level and even though you won't have access to the higher end stuff for the other side, you still have access to a nice wad of options. Still, those tricks are pretty much the exception and they aren't always seen in good light.

[Optimystik]

It's because you delay you progression 3 levels on both sides, so you never get access to the higher end stuff and a Psion/Wizard of your level will always have much more powerful spells at his disposal.

If you enter as a Wizard 3/Psion 3 then yes, you will delay your progression on both sides. But nobody in their right mind actually tries to theurge that way. (See my previous post for various RAW workarounds.)

Basically, you're trading that level of Psion for a lot of utility, such as the entire Illusion school. You're still ahead of a sorcerer, both in firepower and ammunition (especially if you take Focused Specialist, which you should since Psion covers so many bases for you.)

EDIT to your edit:

Ah, if you're using a trick to enter early then it's a different story, you would only really be behind 1 level and even though you won't have access to the higher end stuff for the other side, you still have access to a nice wad of options. Still, those tricks are pretty much the exception and they aren't always seen in good light.

If your DM disallows the early entry options, clearly he doesn't want you to theurge at all, so you're better off just doing something else. But if those options are allowed, Cerebremancer is quite viable.

They're flavorful too; a telepath would make a great precocious apprentice, lifting one of his master's spells straight from his head (or at least knowledge of the whereabouts of his spellbook.)

And if you're a focused specialist wizard, you have a lot more flexibility in what you can drop. Telepath? Drop Enchantment. Egoist? Drop Transmutation. Kineticist? Drop Evocation. (Hell, drop evocation anyway.) The list goes on.

[Fishy]

If you're going to theurge, I think Cerebremancer is probably the way to do it. Where a Mystic Theurge has 5 first level arcane spells and 5 first level divine spells to set on fire, a Psion can just go nova with his power points.

Either that, or some sort of Ardent + Practiced Manifester shenanigans where you don't actually lose any of your progression at all. I'm kind of intrigued by Soul manifester: any effect where they copied over the phrase 'caster level' with 'manifester level' is worth looking at closely.

[Sinfire Titan]

Optimystik, Ardent/Wizard is really the best entry into Cerebremancer. Entering as Psion/Wizard means your Wizard side takes a 3 level drop in power no matter how you enter. There's no early entry trick with the Psion, but there is one for the Wizard.

[Optimystik]

The biggest problem with the Cerebremancer is that it's a vanilla theurge. You get no additional tricks like Anima Mage, Ultimate Magus, Arcane Hierophant, Eldritch Theurge etc do. Even just being able to sublimate spell slots into power points or vice-versa would add enough versatility that the "traditional" entry might be worth it. As it stands though, you have to use tricky entries or the class isn't worth it.

You also have the problem of what to do at level 15+ when the class is done. If you're a Wiz 1/Psion 3/Cerebremancer 10, what do you do for the last 5 levels? ideally you want level 9 powers and level 9 spells, but I can't think of any other PrCs that advance both except for Mind Mage (Dragon 313 IIRC) which doesn't seem all that good since the first 4 levels are alternate progression, and those are the ones that matter.

Optimystik, Ardent/Wizard is really the best entry into Cerebremancer. Entering as Psion/Wizard means your Wizard side takes a 3 level drop in power no matter how you enter. There's no early entry trick with the Psion, but there is one for the Wizard.

Up to level 14 it's only a 1-level drop. I haven't thought of Ardent/Wizard, which I should try, but isn't that MAD? Ardents use WIS right?

[Sinfire Titan]

That's why Ardent is the best entry. You need only a single level of Ardent and Practiced Manifester to qualify, and can just level-dip while boosting your ML through other effects.

Wizard 3/Ardent 1/Cerebremancer 10/Wizard PrC 5/Ardent +1. You need 5 ML boosters to make up for the Wizard PrC that got thrown in there, but the next level or Ardent gives you 9th level powers if you do.

MAD is easy to ignore if you just don't use offensive powers.

[Telonius]

I'm not as familiar with Psionics, but is there any way to get your Powers based off of Charisma instead of Intelligence? If so, you could use Kobold Loredrake/Draconic Ritual shenanigans to eliminate the lost Sorcerer levels, and go Cerebremancer from there. (You'd probably need a couple of Flaws to achieve this, due to feat intensiveness and the need for Wild Talent).

[Zovc]

I'm not as familiar with Psionics, but is there any way to get your Powers based off of Charisma instead of Intelligence? If so, you could use Kobold Loredrake/Draconic Ritual shenanigans to eliminate the lost Sorcerer levels, and go Cerebremancer from there. (You'd probably need a couple of Flaws to achieve this, due to feat intensiveness and the need for Wild Talent).

Ever heard of the Wilder? XP

(Yeah... not optimal, blarg.)

[PhoenixRivers]

Intel: Wiz 1 / Psion 3 / Cerebremancer 10.

At level 14, it manifests at level 13, casts at level 11. CL/ML will both be 14, due to feats. It has killer action economy... But...

Wis: Cleric 3 / Ardent 1 / Psychic Theurge 10

At level 14, it manifests at level 14 (with the number of powers known = ardent 11). it casts as a cleric 13. Caster level/ML is 14, with the right feat selection.

Both are the most efficient way to bust action economy, though the cleric is more defensive.

Cleric casting finger of death? Anticipatory Strike + Death Ward.
Holy Word? AnSt + Silence.

It's the ultimate way to foil a lot of really irritating spells/actions.

[Fishy]

Incidentally, does "+1 to existing manifesting class" give an Ardent new Mantles? Or is an Ardent 1/something X stuck with just two?

[PhoenixRivers]

Stuck with 2. LOL, that's the only weakness, is few mantles. Expanded Knowledge helps though.

Really, the psion side is there for action economy.

[Optimystik]

Both are the most efficient way to bust action economy, though the cleric is more defensive.

I can definitely see that now, thanks for spelling it out. Is there any way to extend the theurgy goodness though? Any way to get access to 9th level spells and 9th level powers? Maybe Ur-Priest can help with the Psychic Theurge method, is there a similar avenue for arcanists?

EDIT: I just realized an Ardent and Ur-Priest have great flavor synergy also. They're both tapping into latent divine energy, just in different ways. Hmm...

[ErrantX]

Stuck with 2. LOL, that's the only weakness, is few mantles. Expanded Knowledge helps though.

Really, the psion side is there for action economy.

I always thought that was a bit weird. Look at the Shadowcaster, fundamentals and path advancements (i.e. turning stuff into supernatural and spell-like abilities as well as gaining the higher tiers of mysteries) continue despite prestige classes, am I right? Why would the Ardent not continue to advance getting mantles? Is there any official word, or is this the general understanding.

This is not a derailment per se, I'm putting together a cerebremancer for my friend's next game so I wanted to know. I always assumed that advancing ardent through a prestige class gave you more mantles.

-X

[Fishy]

I can definitely see that now, thanks for spelling it out. Is there any way to extend the theurgy goodness though? Any way to get access to 9th level spells and 9th level powers? Maybe Ur-Priest can help with the Psychic Theurge method, is there a similar avenue for arcanists?

There's Sublime Chord, which requires a Bard level and 3rd level arcane spells, not to mention the skill points. To get 9 and 9, you basically need to be an Illumian with Precocious Apprentice and Improved Sigil: Krau.

If you're fine with 8th level powers and 9th level arcane, something like Bard 2/Wilder 6/Cerebremancer 2/Sublime Chord 2/Cerebremancer 2-8, using the Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten Spell hack, works fine, and has enough room for Able Learner. If all we're doing is taking the Time mantle and firing off Anticipatory Strikes, we don't care anyway.


Probably not nearly as good as Savage Bard 4/Ardent 1/Ur-Priest 2/Psychic Theurge 8/Cerebremancer 5 using the Practiced Manifester hack, which gets 9 and 9 divine and psionic, with rebuke undead and some bard stapled on for laughs.

[PhoenixRivers]

I can definitely see that now, thanks for spelling it out. Is there any way to extend the theurgy goodness though? Any way to get access to 9th level spells and 9th level powers? Maybe Ur-Priest can help with the Psychic Theurge method, is there a similar avenue for arcanists?

EDIT: I just realized an Ardent and Ur-Priest have great flavor synergy also. They're both tapping into latent divine energy, just in different ways. Hmm...

Let's see...

Ardent 4 / Fighter 1 / Ur Priest 2 / Psychic Theurge 8 / Ardent +5

At end, you'll Manifest as Ardent 20, and cast 9th level out of urpriest.

Or...

Bard 5 / Ur Priest 1 / Ardent 4 / Sublime Chord 1 / Mystic Theurge 9

Use MT to power UrPriest and Sublime Chord, and get 9/9 casting.

And these are the tame builds.
I've seen 9 arcane, 9 divine, 9 psychic before.

[Fishy]

Except that a) Neither Ardents nor Fighters get neither Bluff nor Spellcraft as class skills, b) The point of this thread was to theurge with a manifesting class for nova-ing power points away with Anticipatory Strike and Temporal Distortion, and c) Rogue 2/Bard 5/Druid 1/Ur-Priest 2/Sublime Chord 2/Fochlucan Lyrist 8.

[Eloel]

While we're here, can I learn why the other 10-level-cast-9th-level-divine PrC (was it Blighter?) gets no love?

[PhoenixRivers]

Cause Ur priest isn't dependant on constant deforestation to keep powers.

[ericgrau]

I think the point was that the theurge gets more spells/day and more options. Ya, a wizard will be stronger at first, but what about after a round or two when your highest level spells have been expended from all that rapid casting?

[PhoenixRivers]

I think the point was that the theurge gets more spells/day and more options. Ya, a wizard will be stronger at first, but what about after a round or two when your highest level spells have been expended from all that rapid casting?

Then I'll throw a DC 85 Charm Person out of a level 1 slot.

[Fishy]

I thought the point was that a Theurge gets as many actions per day as the Wizard, and while the Theurge has a deeper well or resources to draw on, most of those extra 1st and 2nd spell slots are going to be irrelevant. Psionics gets around the second problem neatly, and has a number of useful powers that attack the first problem.

Also! Bard spells and maybe therefore also Sublime Chord spells can't be Silenced, which means they can't be cast by your Schism. So maybe we have to look somewhere else.

[ZeroNumerous]

c) Rogue 2/Bard 5/Druid 1/Ur-Priest 2/Sublime Chord 2/Fochlucan Lyrist 8.

What about: d) Kobold Loredrake Argent 1/Druid 5/Master of Many Forms 3/Ur-Priest 2/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 1/Cerebremancer 9

It potentially ends up with 9th Level Arcane, 9th Level Divine, potentially 9th level Manifesting and (crappy) Wild Shape. It'd be unlikely--no, nigh-impossible--to qualify without using flaws.