4E Duelist

[AtopTheMountain]

So, i was thinking of character concepts for a new 4E campaign, and I decided to play a swashbuckler/duelist-type character with a high Dex and Cha, using (most likely) a rapier. But i wasn't sure how to go about it. I was thinking of making a Drow Rogue with Fighter multiclass feats, but that would require me to also have Strength. Is there a better way to go about this?

Please detail feats, ability scores (standard array), classes, race, equipment, etc. and keep in mind that I only have the core rulebooks plus PHB2 and Martial Power.

[Tengu_temp]

Why bother with the multiclass? Just rogue works fine. The only drawback is that you'll depend on sneak attacks, which aren't very swashbuckler-ish.

[AtopTheMountain]

The only drawback is that you'll depend on sneak attacks, which aren't very swashbuckler-ish.

Yeah, that was my thought. I'd rather be able to stand up in single combat with out relying on sneaking around/getting flanking, but still retain that essential... swashbuckleriness. Think Elan, but without the puns.

[Starsinger]

Have you considered looking at Valor Bards? They're charisma based, and very suave, admittedly they don't have much use for Dexterity though.

[AtopTheMountain]

I tried a bard/paladin once, and it was fun (and pretty good), but I didn't like the whole "leader" thing. I'd rather just not have to worry about healing people and stuff; in short, it just doesn't really fit the concept. The Charisma-based attacks are good, but it seems hard to make someone going around in Chainmail into a duelist-ey guy.

Mechanics-wise, it's solid (except for Leader role), but it doesn't really fit the roleplaying / "fluff" concept. Of course, I could just wear Leather and get a high Dex, but then that's all I would be using that for.

EDIT: I guess I could just not take healing powers, but that would rely on someone else being Leader (not always a popular role).

[Tiki Snakes]

Actually, I think that Rogue works fine for a swashbuckler. Especially given that (at least film-wise) most killing blows involve hitting something really vital in a good quick lunge, and lots of feinting (read; a defined use of the bluff-check in combat), Rogue will Swashbuckle bang-on with little trouble.

Take the rogue of your choice, any race that gives a bonus to dex and/or charisma, and play to the style you are after. Rapier is even, I understand, a reasonable weapon-choice for a rogue. If you want to head into more direct combat, stick some toughness in there for a few extra HP, and use the enviroment carefully and inventively to your advantage. Perhaps you could simply go human and use the extra feat to pick up one of those defensive daggers(Possibly AV1) to pair with your Rapier, then use plenty of two-weapon feats to improve your defences and straight damage further.

Make good use of the acrobatics skill to pull of crazy stunts and improvise a lot, for that real swashbuckly feel.

Really, given the amount of misdirection and sudden, darting movements in that kind of fighting, Sneak attack seems bang-on to me.

[Shadow_Elf]

I have made a Swashbuckler 4e class that will be going up in homebrew next week after I get a chance to playtest it this weekend. It is CHA rpimary with DEX/INT secondary, and is a master of taking chances, parrying and taunting his enemies. You might be interested in trying it (it is done up to Paragon).

[TheOOB]

The rogue makes a fine swashbuckler. Sneak attacks are just super accurate attacks, which is very swashbuckler, the term "sneak" is just there for old times sake. I would have called is "Precise Attack" myself.

[DragonBaneDM]

Go Rakish Swashbuckler Paragon Path. Focuses around insults and puns. Grab a Footpad's Friend Rapier, and off ya go!

[kieza]

If you don't mind homebrew:

Duelist: Striker, Secondary Defender.
Weapon Proficiencies: Simple and military melee, simple ranged.
Armor Proficiencies: Cloth, leather.

Skills: Athletics or Acrobatics, plus three of the following:
Acrobatics, Athletics, Bluff, Diplomacy, Endurance, Intimidate, Stealth, Streetwise, Thievery.

Class Features:

Duel: Whenever you make a melee attack, you may mark one target of the attack until the end of your next turn. Whenever you mark a target in this way, any previous marks end.

Duelist's Riposte: Once per round when a creature makes a melee or close attack against you and misses, you may make a melee basic attack against the attacker as an immediate interrupt.

Duelist's Focus: You gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls against targets that you have marked. You also gain a bonus to melee damage rolls against targets that you have marked equal to your Dexterity or Intelligence modifier.

Constant Movement: Whenever you shift, you gain a +2 bonus to AC and Reflex until the end of your next turn.

At-Will Powers:

Fencer's Strike * Duelist Attack 1
At-Will * Martial, Weapon
Standard Action * Melee weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding a one-handed melee weapon.
Target: One creature in range
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier + Dexterity modifier damage

Shifting Strike * Duelist Attack 1
At-Will * Martial, Weapon
Standard Action * Melee weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding a one-handed melee weapon.
Target: One creature in range
Effect: Before the attack you may shift up to 2 squares. You must remain adjacent to the target during this movement.
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage

Cautious Strike * Duelist Attack 1
At-Will * Martial, Weapon
Standard Action * Melee weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding a one-handed melee weapon.
Target: One creature in range
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage, and you gain a bonus to defenses against the target's attacks equal to your Intelligence modifier.

Lunge * Duelist Attack 1
At-Will * Martial, Weapon
Standard Action * Melee 2
Requirement: You must be wielding a one-handed melee weapon.
Target: One creature in range
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage.
Special: You may use this attack in place of a melee basic attack.

Encounter Powers:

You Too? * Duelist Attack 1
Encounter * Martial, Weapon
Standard Action * Melee weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding a one-handed melee weapon.
Target: One creature in range
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage, and the target is marked until the end of your next turn.

Away With You! * Duelist Attack 1
Encounter * Martial, Weapon
Standard Action * Melee weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding a one-handed melee weapon.
Target: One creature in range
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage, and you push the target 2 squares. If the target enters difficult terrain or is pushed adjacent to a wall or similar obstacle, it is also knocked prone.

Daily Powers:

To the Death * Duelist Attack 1
Daily * Martial, Weapon
Standard Action * Melee weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding a one-handed melee weapon.
Target: One creature in range.
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 2[W] + Strength modifier damage, and the target is marked by you for the rest of the encounter. You cannot end this mark, and other marks do not supersede it.
Miss: Half damage, and no mark.

Infuriating Litany * Duelist Attack 1
As you fight, you recite a neverending list of insults regarding your opponent's character, prowess, parentage, and appearance. His infuriated responses are inaccurate, at best.
Daily * Martial, Weapon
Standard Action * Melee weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding a one-handed melee weapon.
Target: One creature in range.
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage.
Effect: For the rest of the encounter, whenever you hit the target with a melee attack, it takes a -2 penalty to attacks until the end of your next turn.

I figure this is a good start. If people are interested, I'll add more.

[Kurald Galain]

If you don't mind homebrew:

Duelist: Striker, Secondary Defender.

This totally needs a "You Killed My Father!" daily power.

[AtopTheMountain]

I figure this is a good start. If people are interested, I'll add more.

You should probably add more; the campaign is starting at level 16.
My DM will probably not let me use it (he's kind of tight about homebrew stuff) but I can try.

[Guinea Anubis]

I think Rogue on its own is good enough, but if I had to add something to it I would go with a TWF ranger. Using a rapier and parrying dagger (from AV) would fit what you want to do.

[kieza]

I'll see what I can do; when does your campaign start? It might take a day or two.

[AtopTheMountain]

the first session is November 14 afternoon, but it would help to get it in a couple days ahead of time to get familiar with the powers

[Artanis]

I think Rogue on its own is good enough, but if I had to add something to it I would go with a TWF ranger. Using a rapier and parrying dagger (from AV) would fit what you want to do.

The parrying dagger is an off-hand weapon, and the TWF Ranger's whole "thing" is using two non-off-hand weapons. If you're going to use a parrying dagger, you might as well go with something else.

[Tiki Snakes]

The parrying dagger is an off-hand weapon, and the TWF Ranger's whole "thing" is using two non-off-hand weapons. If you're going to use a parrying dagger, you might as well go with something else.

Like Rogue? :P

[AtopTheMountain]

Heh, yeah, it pretty much looks like I'm going Rogue right now. I took a look at Martial Power and found some cool duelist/fencing type attacks, so... yeah.

[Moff Chumley]

Yah, I was just going to suggest Martial Power. More swashbuckley rogues seem to be a theme...

[Artanis]

Like Rogue? :P

Precisely

[Decoy Lockbox]

Heh, yeah, it pretty much looks like I'm going Rogue right now. I took a look at Martial Power and found some cool duelist/fencing type attacks, so... yeah.

There is a fighter daily (lvl 15 or so) called "Carve Initials" which is fairly good, and of course works very well here.

[Dragonmuncher]

Cool stuff, kieza!

One problem with 4e: Homebrewing base classes is a lot more time-intensive.

[Izmir Stinger]

Are hybrids allowed? I was playing around in character builder the other day with martial class hybrids and accidentally made Zoro.

Spoiler

Show

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Diego de la Vega, "Zoro", level 20
Human, Fighter|Rogue, Swordmaster
Hybrid Talent: Fighter Combat Talent
Fighter Combat Talent: One-handed Weapon Talent
Background: Occupation - Revolutionary (History class skill)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 21, Con 12, Dex 21, Int 11, Wis 9, Cha 16.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 14, Con 11, Dex 16, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 15.


AC: 33 Fort: 32 Reflex: 33 Will: 29
HP: 120 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 30

TRAINED SKILLS
Perception +14, Athletics +20, Bluff +18, Stealth +20, History +15, Acrobatics +20, Intimidate +18

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +10, Diplomacy +13, Dungeoneering +9, Endurance +11, Heal +9, Insight +9, Nature +9, Religion +10, Streetwise +13, Thievery +15

FEATS
Human: Hybrid Talent
Level 1: Weapon Proficiency (Rapier)
Level 2: Weapon Expertise (Light Blade)
Level 4: Nimble Blade
Level 6: Bravo
Level 8: Bravo Novice
Level 10: Bravo Specialist
Level 11: Weapon Focus (Light Blade)
Level 12: Agile Athlete
Level 14: Mounted Combat
Level 16: Vigilante Justice Style
Level 18: Back to the Wall
Level 20: Action Surge

POWERS
Bonus At-Will Power: Sly Flourish
Hybrid Fighter at-will 1: Cleave
Hybrid Rogue at-will 1: Riposte Strike
Hybrid encounter 1: Fox's Gambit
Hybrid daily 1: Lasting Threat
Hybrid utility 2: Close the Gap
Hybrid encounter 3: Hesitation Slash
Hybrid daily 5: Clever Riposte
Hybrid utility 6: Threatening Glare
Hybrid encounter 7: Dismaying Slash
Hybrid daily 9: Not Worth My Time (retrained to Bravo's Finish at Bravo Specialist)
Hybrid utility 10: Defensive Resurgence
Hybrid encounter 13: Fool's Opportunity (replaces Fox's Gambit)
Hybrid daily 15: Carve Initials (replaces Lasting Threat)
Hybrid utility 16: Vigilant Footwork
Hybrid encounter 17: Harrying Assault (retrained to Death's Messenger at Bravo Novice) (replaces Dismaying Slash)
Hybrid daily 19: Feinting Flurry (replaces Clever Riposte)

ITEMS
Magic Rapier +5, Magic Anathema Armor +5, Amulet of Protection +5
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

Once I realized I was building Zoro I changed some stuff around and selected a few things for flavor rather than optimization. For example, the reason he had Fox's Gambit was not because I thought it was a particularly good choice, but because Zoro is Spanish for Fox. Zoro's signature move is not only in there, but also works really well for the character because Zoro can't mark and sneak attack in the same round, but "Carve Initials" marks for the rest of the encounter. Another thing that I chose for flavor that works well anyway is "Vigilante Justice Style," which turns Riposte Strike into a defender-ish ability.

It also utilizes a lot of those seldom used fighter powers that are specialized for light blades, which fighters don't really use except when you build something like this.

Is it a powerful character? Probably not, but I think he would be fun to play. Basically, every round of combat you get to say, "This round do I want to be a defender or striker?" and then execute it - if just a bit less effectively than a dedicated member of one of those roles.

NOTE: I didn't really buy him any equipment. I just gave him basic +5 stuff so his stats would look right. AC is a little low, though, but a hybrid can't do everything.

[Jack_Banzai]

Yah, I was just going to suggest Martial Power. More swashbuckley rogues seem to be a theme...

I'd be willing to bet that Martial Power 2 will have even more. Everyone loves a swashbuckler.

[Shadow_Elf]

My swashbuckler class is up through heroic + paragon paths in the homebrew section. You're welcome to give that a spin (and if you do, tell me how it goes - it can always use more playtesting!).

[Jack_Banzai]

Ask and ye shall receive.

Duelist Rogue article from Dragon 381 posted on the Wizards website this morning.

Just what the doctor ordered.

[Doug Lampert]

Cool stuff, kieza!

One problem with 4e: Homebrewing base classes is a lot more time-intensive.

I have not found it so. For a homebrew I know what I want so I need only one build and likely only one full set of powers and one paragon path (assuming I don't use a racial or multiclass paragon path). There's no point to a bunch of powers and options you'll never use.

Dailies for levels 1, 5, 9, 20
Encounters for levels 1, 3, 7, 11
Utilities for levels 2, 6, 10, 12, 16, 22, 26

Dailies for levels 15, 19, 25, and 29 can basically be upgrades of the heroic dailies since I'll be retraining to replace. Similarly for the higher level encounters.

A set of class features, and you're done. Template and NPC rules optional.

A spell-list for 3.x or a decent set of class features for 20 levels took at least as long and was FAR FAR harder to ballance.

[Asbestos]

Ask and ye shall receive.

Duelist Rogue article from Dragon 381 posted on the Wizards website this morning.

Just what the doctor ordered.

What's it like?

[Mando Knight]

What's it like?

Pretty darned awesome... sufficiently so that I do believe that it'll be updated soon. It has feats and powers and such that emphasize blade & buckler style fighting, be it with a rapier or (with a second feat in the article, or taking the Eladrin-only, inferior, Martial Power feat) a longsword. The powers adore Artful Dodgers in particular, with most of them benefiting from high Charisma, and all but one or two of those having an Artful Dodger clause.

[Jack_Banzai]

What's it like?

There is a new 1st level at-will for Rogues that is so good it made my Rogue-playing coworker grin like a madman and basically dance in his cubicle.