Vampire.. druid?

[kball]

I'm curious as to what a DM should do if a druid pc it turned into a vampire? I would think they would lose there druid levels and become a fighter, like a vampire druid is total nonsense... I would like to hear some creative responses to this though?

[hiryuu]

Can you explain why it's nonsense?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I wouldn't object. Predators are a part of nature too, you know. Evil and undead do not necessarily mean the gods of nature will object. Druids can be Evil just fine, and Clerics are the ones who get Turning.

That said, if you hate your player enough to ruin his build like that over a monster you put in the game, I recommend letting him retrain any Druid levels after 6 into Blighter. He'll still be sucky, but it's better than nothing.

[AstralFire]

I'm curious as to what a DM should do if a druid pc it turned into a vampire? I would think they would lose there druid levels and become a fighter, like a vampire druid is total nonsense... I would like to hear some creative responses to this though?

I think there is some good RP potential in a druid who has been turned against her will into an abomination against nature. I would let them keep their abilities, even, but all of her wild shapes would be 'wrong', and her animal companion would most likely leave her (with a strong emotional bond, it might stick around but lose its animal companion-y abilities.) This is, in fact, one of like three ways I would not scorn a vampire showing up in my presence.

[Rettu Skcollob]

Why? I don't see any reason Undead in general should be barred from the Druid class. Of course they'd be less drawn to it, but if a pre-existing Druid became a vampire then that's an interesting character development; how would they reconcile that with their beliefs? Would they seek a cure? Blindly throw themselves into battle with un-natural forces, knowing that it doesn't matter if they die since they're as warped as their enemies are? Whatever.

[BobVosh]

I think there is some good RP potential in a druid who has been turned against her will into an abomination against nature. I would let them keep their abilities, even, but all of her wild shapes would be 'wrong', and her animal companion would most likely leave her (with a strong emotional bond, it might stick around but lose its animal companion-y abilities.) This is, in fact, one of like three ways I would not scorn a vampire showing up in my presence.

Actually it would be fun to make it so only large bats, wolves, and other animals associated with vampires stick around, but they have trouble keeping other ones.

Also point them in the direction of undead wildshape. I'm sure someone has a useful link. I want to say Libris Mortis.

I would allow this though. So long as they RP it well.

[kball]

I actually have a vampire druid character, my dm decided her spells related to plants and things would more control dead plans, the spells are the same he just describes them differently. I was surprised he let me become a vampire because honestly id never heard of that before. I didn't think it would make sense because well, when I think druids i think they control more live nature..? I suppose it's my own personal view on them. And obviously if a dm didn't want you to be a vampire, they just wouldn't let you, yeah?

[AstralFire]

I see your point of view, but I think being a victim of corruption and intentional falls from grace are infinitely more interesting when not accompanied with an immediate loss of power.

[SparkMandriller]

Let's get some angst up in here, yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeah!

[BobVosh]

I see your point of view, but I think being a victim of corruption and intentional falls from grace are infinitely more interesting when not accompanied with an immediate loss of power.

I agree. Although I can also agree with a quick Eye of the Tiger montage to learn how to use things that you could do before.

Don't completely nerf players for one bad roll. It just means you lose plot cohesion as they switch characters.

[Crafty Cultist]

the transformation may change the druids mindset, causing them to see their transformation as an evolution into a state higher in the food chain

[hiryuu]

I actually have a vampire druid character, my dm decided her spells related to plants and things would more control dead plans, the spells are the same he just describes them differently. I was surprised he let me become a vampire because honestly id never heard of that before. I didn't think it would make sense because well, when I think druids i think they control more live nature..? I suppose it's my own personal view on them. And obviously if a dm didn't want you to be a vampire, they just wouldn't let you, yeah?

Nature is a backstabbing parasitic monster that tricks you into thinking fruit isn't a means for a tree to spooge you in the face. There are flies that wrestle mosquitoes to the ground and lay their eggs on them in the hopes that the mosquitoes bite you so the fly eggs can then grow in your flesh. There are mind-controlling barnacles that make male crabs think they're female crabs just so they can protect and spread the barnacles in question. The candiru exists. There are fungi that turn wasps and ants into zombies. There are worms that mind-ride snails. Half of the world is infected with a bacteria that eventually makes its hosts into neurotic wrecks and has been demonstrably manipulating our culture and possibly making us like cats for millenia. Everything alive in the world gets off on the suffering of something else.

Nature... is a jerk.

In a D&D world, it's even worse. There's parasitic memetics that turn people into undead things just based on how they died. This means it's perfectly natural when a mohrg gets up, and that's just the start of the long, slow, slide into magical crazy.

Oh yeah, and there's the Undead Wildshape feat in Libris Mortis. It'll let you turn into undead animals. It's pretty sweet.

[PinkysBrain]

I'm curious as to what a DM should do if a druid pc it turned into a vampire?

PC + vampire = forget about it, unless the campaign is set up for wacky monster squad antics. Vampire is unplayably weak if you don't use your spawning ability, and completely brokenly overpowered if you do use your spawning ability (although it can be helped a bit if you just houserule "no chain control spawn" for all the undead which can spawn, which everyone should for verisimilitude's sake).

I would think they would lose there druid levels and become a fighter, like a vampire druid is total nonsense... I would like to hear some creative responses to this though?

Since it turns you evil (outside of Eberron) I don't see why. Evil druids don't mind subverting the natural order.

Also fighter doesn't work well for a Vampire PC ... they are only playable as a puppet master, his spawning ability is the greatest contributor to his LA. Trying to hit something with a stick yourself is silly.

[AslanCross]

Let's get some angst up in here, yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeah!

As long as his vampire doesn't twinkle in the sunlight, it's all good.

Anyway, vampires are generally seen as an abomination against nature because:
1. Being empowered by negative energy, they aren't part of the natural order.
2. Just because something is a predator doesn't mean it's a natural creature. All of the sinister aberrations are predators in one way or another, but as they have no natural enemies they exist outside of the natural order.
3. They do not contribute to the ecosystem in any way. Their roles are parasitic at best, and while they cannot reproduce biologically, the spawn they create only spread the plague of vampirism.

That said, the same can be said of viruses and humans (at least Agent Smith says so), so this doesn't really prove anything.

Furthermore, we can have Warforged Druids, and as far as abominations against nature go, Warforged are pretty much on the same level as vampires. They can't reproduce at all, require the processing of natural resources to create, etc. (For the life of me, I still don't understand why a druid gets red carded for wearing metal armor, while sharpening a stick or even crafting a scimitar doesn't cause that same fall.)

You can probably let him get away with it, especially if the transformation was against his will, as AstralFire said. If you plan on making him fall, at least agree on this with the player, and offer retrained levels in Blighter as was mentioned above. Don't just drop him without him knowing.


EDIT: Pinky's Brain is right, though---The vampire's LA makes it nigh-unplayable.

[SirKazum]

Did anyone say Gangrel?

[BobVosh]

Vampire druid feels more malkavian to me. At least in motivation.

Probably looks more Gangrel though

[Narazil]

Vampire druid feels more malkavian to me. At least in motivation.

Probably looks more Gangrel though

Yea, because, y'know, Gangrel don't have the whole "Animalism", loner woodmans-type feel to them, at all.

[Leewei]

Old-school Tzimische in OWoD seem to fit this concept fairly well.

Alignment-wise, the druid would need to be Neutral Evil. The big question is, can a druid be undead? This becomes a tricky question. As something clearly outside of the natural order, the druid would need powerful reasons not to attempt to destroy or reincarnate herself. The druid might have some powerful motives not to do this, however. For instance, the druid might want to protect the wilderness from creatures or forces that would otherwise annihilate it were she to pass on as the natural order would require.

[Saintheart]

Maybe look at the Blighter PrC, which is from Complete Divine. Strikes me as an interesting ex-druid build, and it's explicitly said to be the druid's version of the anti-paladin. Wipes his druid spells out, gives him access to more destructive ones.

As for an undead blighter, if you've got the Red Hand of Doom adventure ...

Spoiler

Show

The Ghostlord is one, apparently designed to "maul a party of 8th level characters with ease". Gives his full background and all. He's a lich rather than a vampire build as such, but as always, season to taste...

Hope that assists.

[Gerrtt]

Meh, why not. Vampires have an affinity with certain kinds of animals as per their "Children of the Night" ability, just have them gain a new animal companion (or even cooler, a swarm of small bats or rats) that is either a bat, dire bat, wolf, dire wolf, rat or dire rat. Or, heck, for fun's sake homebrew him a vampire bat companion (or dire version for even more wackiness).

I'd check in with your player though. There's lots of ways that we can make this work, but if your player doesn't want to play as a vampire druid then I'd let them find a cure/roll up a new character.

If they roll a new one, maybe this vampire druid could even become a long-standing enemy for the PCs who constantly seeks to turn them over as well out of a strange mixture of anger because the PCs didn't keep the druid safe or try to help fix the situation and a desire to remain friends with them. Also evil.

[Tiki Snakes]

Right, so.

The difficulty perceived is; "Vampires, as Undead, are outside of the Natural Order." This is because, cheifly, they in various ways use energy from the Negative Energy Plane.

An Entirely natural and syemmetrically opposed plane to the Potitive Energy plane.

I say this; Given that both planes are a natural part of the cosmos, and that Undead are quite capable of happening on their own, without necromantic interference, Undead ARE natural in such a magical world. They are every bit as much a part of nature as a parasitic wasp, a bushfire, or a crippling virus.

The concept of Undead being abominable things from outside nature is a great idea, but it's best to remember that really, it's just a common opinion. It's cultural. Who better to wrestle with this secret truth than a Druid? :)

IMO the only things that could truly be considered abominations against nature, are Abominations. :) They literally do come from outside nature and indeed reality itself. On a Philosophical level, they're far more Unnatural.

[sdream]

This is not a crisis but a very interesting opportunity for plot. Becoming a vampire is often displayed in literature and movies as a process that takes time... and can be fought if desired.

Declare that the character has become infected. They can fight it (spending money and effort) and possibly cure it, or choose to just hold it at bay and continue advancing normally despite their infection.

Orrrrr... they can fight it not quite hard enough and slowly gain levels in vampire instead of druidic, whenever they choose.

Let them choose which powers of a vampire they would like to sacrafice class levels for, and if you feel you have overshot or undershot fine tune it as you go by introducing penalties or unexpected perks. Others in the party could also be infected "accidentally" and these powers could make your party famous... and a target of some groups (vampiric and anti-undead).

Perks to offer parts of per "Vampire Level":
- Con bonuses (eventual immunity to con effects)
- Fast Healing
- Climbing bonuses
- Resistance to cold + electricity
- Damage reduction /magic and?or silver
- Summoning or controlling animals
- Bonuses to Bluff/Diplomacy/Charm/Dominate
- Gaseous form for increasing time, taking decreasing damage
- Blood Drain
- Energy Drain
- Negative energy Resistance, immunity, then healing

Penalties to drop in when least expected:
- Light sensitivity, then allergy, then flammability
- Increasing weakness to turn undead
- Only able to digest blood (and still hungry)
- Positive energy ineffectiveness, then weakness + damage
- shadow and reflection fading

If they change their mind along the way, fun adventures trying to restore lost humanity and recapture class levels from vampire levels one at a time.

[hamishspence]

Don't know about Vampire Druid, but Champions of Ruin has a Lich Druid.

He gets around the "must have a deity- which grants access to the druid domain" rule which all Faerun divine casters have- by "drawing power from natural forces"

In short- uniquely among druids of Faerun, he is a "standard PHB druid"

so Undeath and Druid can combine- its just rare.

[sdream]

PS - in case my reply did not make it clear, I see no significant conflict between vampirism and druidism. Skeletons and ghouls are not very natural, but vampires are just another predator, and one that has an affinity for animals even.

[Fishy]

Vampires are an affront to nature because they steal men's souls and make them their slaves.

But what is a man? A miserable little pile of secrets!

[Gerrtt]

Enough talk. Have at you!

[kball]

Sorry I'm not responding much, I'm reading what your all saying I swear!
I'm mostly not responding because I'm not having this issue at all, MY dm did though and I was curious what other people thought to do with it. Honestly I like some of your thoughts better :P

I really like the idea of an internal conflict with a vampire-druid, being more of a victim the anything else.

(thanks all for responding, I'm really enjoying all the responses)

[LibraryOgre]

Personally, I kinda like the Buffy approach to this, rather than the World of Darkness approach.

The difference, as I see it, is that the World of Darkness approach has you remain mostly you... you hunger for blood and fear fire, but you're mostly you, with new powers and weaknesses. This fits with its tone of internal angst.

The Buffy approach is that what is left is not really you. It looks like you, and has your memories, but it has lost its soul and, thus, its capacity for goodness. It acts on things you suppress. It kills without care (beyond care for its own cheesecloth ribcage).

I see the D&D vampire, with its mandatory shift to evil (I would see the super-rare vampires who are not evil as being those exposed to artifacts and the like), as being far closer to that ideal.

With that in mind, what happens when you shift a Druid to Evil? I would imagine that he becomes crueler, more about the hunt and "the strong survive". I could see a vampire druid being empowered by a deity of undeath... the vampire is only in his natural niche, after all, as a predator of man. That position, and his own natural powers, would affect what spells he cast. And Natural Spell just got pretty creepy, being cast by an undead cloud.