New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 67
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Halfling in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2008

    Default [4e] The Essentials articles are atrocious.

    The entire Essentials line of articles of Dragon Magazine strikes me as wholly unnecessary and of noteworthily low quality. Would any of you be familiar with how "official" video game strategy guides are inevitably of lower quality and provide less useful information, hints, and tactics compared to the free walkthroughs on GameFAQs? The exact same phenomenon happens here.

    There exists an assortment of "Handbooks", useful and practical guides for creating and playing a character of a given class, be it a sorcerer or a paladin, available on the official CharOp board, whose content is even color-coded and spans the full breadth of all 30 levels. Despite this, WotC insists on churning out "Essentials" articles which provide much less, and moreover, worse information on how to craft and play a character of a particular class than these Handbooks (i.e. extremely overvaluing Constitution, mixes of odd and even ability scores for level 1 starting arrays, 14 Intelligence for a Tactical Presence warlord, disregarding Commander's Strike for a Tactical Presence warlord, stating that Devastating Strike is "the cornerstone at-will attack for most barbarians" [even though Whirling Slayer barbarians cannot use it], completely ignoring the existence of double weapons for Tempest Technique fighters, recommending Sure Strike for a sword-and-board fighter, etc.) and which are part of what those who have subscribed to Insider are paying for. If the articles are about optimization anyway, why recommend subpar options?

    Tell me, would you rather consult a stock market advisor who does pro bono work and is known for being wise and knowledgeable in his or her field of expertise, or one who charges for his or her work and offers shoddy guidance that is more likely to lose you money than earn it?

    Yes, the Essentials articles provide feats, powers, paragon paths, and so on. However, Dragon Magazine happens to have a series of articles meant for the sole purpose of providing crunch for players, and that would be Class Acts. What WotC should do is nix the entire Essentials line and include a link to a CharOp Handbook or two in the introductory page of each Class Acts article. It reduces the work that their writers have to exert, it frees up pages for the current issue, it gives a well-deserved shout-out to the hard-working (and paying) community to increase their PR, and it refers readers to substantial and useful guides, so why are they not doing it?

    I thoroughly cringe at the prospect of them releasing a "Player's Strategy Guide", full of oh-so-wise hints and tricks on how to "optimize" a character, next year. The fact that one of the characters on the cover, presumably a ranger, is wielding a pair of khopeshes over, say, scimitars or bastard swords, is an omen of things to come. Mark my words, a build for this particular character shall appear in this book, and at level 11, they shall state something along the lines of "This is what we have been waiting for. Since the khopesh is a heavy blade and an axe, we can take the Deadly Axe paragon feat and add 2d8 damage to all of our critical hits, and we can reroll 1s on that damage too!"

    I feel I must emphasize the part where they recommend Sure Strike for a sword-and-board fighter, along with 15 Strength, 14 Constitution, 14 Dexterity, 8 Intelligence (indeed), 14 Wisdom, and 10 Charisma for a starting array, pre-racial modifiers.

    Edit: Here are a few examples of CharOp handbooks that are much more substantial and much more helpful than the Essentials articles that WotC lovelessly and uninformedly puts out:
    http://community.wizards.com/charop/...ghter/Handbook
    http://community.wizards.com/charop/...arden/Handbook
    http://community.wizards.com/charop/...arian/Handbook
    http://community.wizards.com/go/thre...adins_Handbook
    http://community.wizards.com/go/thre...zards_Handbook
    Last edited by Adslahnit; 2009-11-08 at 12:15 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Chimera

    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    NY

    Default Re: [4e] The Essentials articles are atrocious.

    {Scrubbed}

    Heh, sorry.

    But yeah, I agree- It's never been a good idea to turn to WotC for character building advice. If you did, all your 3.5 characters would have Endurance as a feat.
    Last edited by Roland St. Jude; 2009-11-07 at 03:39 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Randel View Post
    How about the fact that humans can apparently breed with anything on two legs (or even four legs if you count dragons)?

    Human: Hey elf, you look like a girl.
    Elf: To a human, everything must look like a girl.
    Human: What?
    Elf: Half-orcs, half-ogres...
    Human: ... shut up.
    Dwarf: Half-dragons, half-kobolds.
    Human: I said shut up!
    Elf: ...
    Dwarf: ...
    Human: ...
    Elf: Centaurs.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Kurald Galain's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2007

    Default Re: [4e] The Essentials articles are atrocious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adslahnit View Post
    I feel I must emphasize the part where they recommend Sure Strike for a sword-and-board fighter, along with 15 Strength, 14 Constitution, 14 Dexterity, 8 Intelligence (indeed), 14 Wisdom, and 10 Charisma for a starting array, pre-racial modifiers.
    Wow, that's some really bad advice there. To be frank I've never paid attention to the "charop" advice given by WOTC staff.
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

    "I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
    Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Planetar

    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Texas
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [4e] The Essentials articles are atrocious.

    Eh, it's always been clear from all the charop advice (including the little nugget in the 3.5 DMG saying that no homebrew 1st level spell should be more powerful than the best 1st level spell, Magic Missile) they've ever given out that WotC has never actually played their games, it's not like we can expect them to suddenly become knowledgeable about how things in their game really work.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    OrcBarbarianGuy

    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [4e] The Essentials articles are atrocious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kazrasa View Post
    Eh, it's always been clear from all the charop advice (including the little nugget in the 3.5 DMG saying that no homebrew 1st level spell should be more powerful than the best 1st level spell, Magic Missile) they've ever given out that WotC has never actually played their games, it's not like we can expect them to suddenly become knowledgeable about how things in their game really work.
    I find the assertion that anyone who plays D&D must immediately and naturally become an expert in its workings to be fundamentally, obviously, and demonstrably false.

    Lots of people play for years and years and years and never even approach optimized characters.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Planetar

    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Texas
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [4e] The Essentials articles are atrocious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gametime View Post
    I find the assertion that anyone who plays D&D must immediately and naturally become an expert in its workings to be fundamentally, obviously, and demonstrably false.

    Lots of people play for years and years and years and never even approach optimized characters.
    Hyperbole. Then again, it's very hard to get sarcasm over the interwebs, so I can see your point. I'm not saying that anyone who plays has to be a super-optimizer (or that you even need to have a powerful character, I've had plenty of crappy characters that were fun to play), but, I find it a little ridiculous that the creators of the game don't even know what's optimal and what isn't.
    Last edited by AshDesert; 2009-11-07 at 03:32 PM. Reason: Bold = Better than all caps

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Logalmier's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    High Atop a Cloud...
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [4e] The Essentials articles are atrocious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gametime View Post
    I find the assertion that anyone who plays D&D must immediately and naturally become an expert in its workings to be fundamentally, obviously, and demonstrably false.

    Lots of people play for years and years and years and never even approach optimized characters.
    That's true, but the people who made the game in the first place should be reasonably familiar with it. But from what they've showed us, they clearly aren't.

    EDIT: Ninja'd...
    Last edited by Logalmier; 2009-11-07 at 03:31 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Kurald Galain's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2007

    Default Re: [4e] The Essentials articles are atrocious.

    Ah, for what it's worth, not all information in the volunteer-written Guides on the WOTC forums is all that good, either. For instance, Treantmonk's famous "god guide to wizards" lists Elven Precision as one of the top-tier feats, which is something he clearly hasn't done the math on.
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

    "I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
    Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!

  9. - Top - End - #9

    Default Re: [4e] The Essentials articles are atrocious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Logalmier View Post
    That's true, but the people who made the game in the first place should be reasonably familiar with it. But from what they've showed us, they clearly aren't.
    A common misconception. Just because you created something, it doesn't mean other people won't be able to use it better than you. The creators are normaly thinking inside the box, while it's easier for us to think outside the box and find flaws that the creators never noticed.

    The best example of this is hof Richard Garfield, the creator of MTG, got utterly crushed when he tried to play with a pro at a tournament of said game.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Logalmier's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    High Atop a Cloud...
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [4e] The Essentials articles are atrocious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Ah, for what it's worth, not all information in the volunteer-written Guides on the WOTC forums is all that good, either. For instance, Treantmonk's famous "god guide to wizards" lists Elven Precision as one of the top-tier feats, which is something he clearly hasn't done the math on.
    I've never been a fan of Treantmonks guide for wizards. It just feels... lacking. I prefer to use LogicNinja's "Being Batman" myself.

    But Treantmonk's guide is better than any wizard guide WotC has published.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    A common misconception. Just because you created something, it doesn't mean other people won't be able to use it better than you. The creators are normaly thinking inside the box, while it's easier for us to think outside the box and find flaws that the creators never noticed.

    The best example of this is hof Richard Garfield, the creator of MTG, got utterly crushed when he tried to play with a pro at a tournament of said game.
    That's true... and I doubt I could make a better D&D system than WotC.

    What they should of done is release 3rd edition, then let everyone who played it find a bunch of stuff that was wrong with it. Then they could just use the fixes that the players came up with, and incorporate that into version 3.5.
    Last edited by Logalmier; 2009-11-07 at 03:39 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2007

    Default Re: [4e] The Essentials articles are atrocious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo
    Just because you created something, it doesn't mean other people won't be able to use it better than you.

    The best example of this is how Richard Garfield, the creator of MTG, got utterly crushed when he tried to play with a pro at a tournament of said game.
    Or like how Maximilion Pegasus totally got owned by Yugi Mutuo in Duel Monsters.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Kurald Galain's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2007

    Default Re: [4e] The Essentials articles are atrocious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    The best example of this is hof Richard Garfield, the creator of MTG, got utterly crushed when he tried to play with a pro at a tournament of said game.
    On the other hand, Richard Garfield is not (to my knowledge) writing regular columns with advice for MTG strategy.
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

    "I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
    Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Mercenary Pen's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    The Battlefield
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [4e] The Essentials articles are atrocious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Face Of Evil View Post
    Or like how Maximilion Pegasus totally got owned by Yugi Mutuo in Duel Monsters.
    Though that one was actually a close run match- mostly because the guy had built his deck with cards that were ridiculously hard to beat with anything existing at the time.
    Part of YugiohITP
    Avatar by Smuchmuch

    Warning: This post may contain traces of nuts, madness and/or sarcasm, you have been warned.

  14. - Top - End - #14

    Default Re: [4e] The Essentials articles are atrocious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Face Of Evil View Post
    Or like how Maximilion Pegasus totally got owned by Yugi Mutuo in Duel Monsters.
    Ah, but Pegasus did not invent Duel Monsters, he merely repackaged an existing game into a pale imitation of its former glory - much like what 4 kids did to the show.
    Last edited by Pharaoh's Fist; 2009-11-07 at 04:43 PM.

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Planetar

    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Texas
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [4e] The Essentials articles are atrocious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    On the other hand, Richard Garfield is not (to my knowledge) writing regular columns with advice for MTG strategy.
    This. If Wizards were to come out and say that they're not as knowledgeable as some of the Char-Op people (and plug some of the better handbooks as the OP suggested), that would be understandable. But, they keep up this charade that they know all the best powers and feats, and then offer people that don't know any better sub-par advice packaged as the most optimal choices.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Eldritch Horror in the Playground Moderator
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [4e] The Essentials articles are atrocious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mercenary Pen View Post
    Though that one was actually a close run match- mostly because the guy had built his deck with cards that were ridiculously hard to beat with anything existing at the time.
    Actually, I'd give more credit to his ability to read his opponent's mind and predict the future...

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Mercenary Pen's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    The Battlefield
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [4e] The Essentials articles are atrocious.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Glyphstone View Post
    Actually, I'd give more credit to his ability to read his opponent's mind and predict the future...
    Whichever, both were true, and the mind reading was mostly effective during the earlier phases of the duel.
    Part of YugiohITP
    Avatar by Smuchmuch

    Warning: This post may contain traces of nuts, madness and/or sarcasm, you have been warned.

  18. - Top - End - #18

    Default Re: [4e] The Essentials articles are atrocious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mercenary Pen View Post
    Whichever, both were true, and the mind reading was mostly effective during the earlier phases of the duel.
    It doesn't change the fact that he's unable to actualy read the cards, since they're suposed to have the rules explained in them, yet he keeps running into obvious traps, let alone the actual trap cards.

    Does this mean...That Maximilian is actualy based on real life people?

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Doc Roc's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [4e] The Essentials articles are atrocious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    It doesn't change the fact that he's unable to actualy read the cards, since they're suposed to have the rules explained in them, yet he keeps running into obvious traps, let alone the actual trap cards.

    Does this mean...That Maximilian is actualy based on real life people?
    I always assumed that he literally couldn't read.
    Lagren: I took Livers Need Not Apply, only reflavoured.
    DocRoc: to?
    Lagren: So whenever Harry wisecracks, he regains HP.

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Starbuck_II's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Enterprise, Alabama
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [4e] The Essentials articles are atrocious.

    No, he can read, but at a 1st grade level because he reads some word at some point to even go to egypt.

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Mercenary Pen's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    The Battlefield
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [4e] The Essentials articles are atrocious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    It doesn't change the fact that he's unable to actualy read the cards, since they're suposed to have the rules explained in them, yet he keeps running into obvious traps, let alone the actual trap cards.

    Does this mean...That Maximilian is actualy based on real life people?
    I may be mis-remembering, but I thought in his case he only needed the synergies explaining to him, because most of the cards Yugi used to defeat him had already been seen, and therefore didn't need to be explained again (especially since it was before most monster effects). If I recall correctly, it was pegasus who did most of the explaining beyond the situational combos involving Yugi's Living Arrow and Mystic Box spell cards.
    Part of YugiohITP
    Avatar by Smuchmuch

    Warning: This post may contain traces of nuts, madness and/or sarcasm, you have been warned.

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Trog's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [4e] The Essentials articles are atrocious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adslahnit View Post
    The entire Essentials line of articles of Dragon Magazine strikes me as wholly unnecessary and of noteworthily low quality.
    Feel free to create a blog or web site full of better articles and show us all how it's done.

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2007

    Default Re: [4e] The Essentials articles are atrocious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslecamo View Post
    A common misconception. Just because you created something, it doesn't mean other people won't be able to use it better than you. The creators are normaly thinking inside the box, while it's easier for us to think outside the box and find flaws that the creators never noticed.

    The best example of this is hof Richard Garfield, the creator of MTG, got utterly crushed when he tried to play with a pro at a tournament of said game.
    In the computer science world, it's pretty much well understood that you simply can't check a system you designed for security vulnerabilities, and you shouldn't be the only one checking your code for bugs.

    Apparently game design works the same way. Who knew?

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Gralamin's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2005

    Default Re: [4e] The Essentials articles are atrocious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fishy View Post
    In the computer science world, it's pretty much well understood that you simply can't check a system you designed for security vulnerabilities, and you shouldn't be the only one checking your code for bugs.

    Apparently game design works the same way. Who knew?
    I'd actually bet that you can extend this to all proper design worlds. Heck, I hear people who draw like to be critiqued for mistakes.

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Griffon

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location

    Default Re: [4e] The Essentials articles are atrocious.

    They probably feel obligated to have some sort of official advice, instead of relying on the community to do everything. People are paying good money for the service, and not being able to do anything besides redirect people to a non-official source would be lame.

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2006

    Default Re: [4e] The Essentials articles are atrocious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trog View Post
    Feel free to create a blog or web site full of better articles and show us all how it's done.
    "I bet you can't do better" is a ridiculous argument. I've never flipped a burger in my life, yet I know that McDonald's is crap, because eating it is unpleasant and I can point at loads of places and people that make better burgers. Likewise, the OP pointed out what are apparently obvious flaws in WotC's advice (I don't play 4th Edition) and suggested better sources. That's enough.

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Gralamin's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2005

    Default Re: [4e] The Essentials articles are atrocious.

    I follow the strategy of:
    1) Ignore sections that don't have new mechanics
    2) Read new mechanics
    It works fine for me, and it really doesn't bug me that maybe 3 pages of useless stuff is in there as well.

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Montreal
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [4e] The Essentials articles are atrocious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jothki View Post
    They probably feel obligated to have some sort of official advice, instead of relying on the community to do everything. People are paying good money for the service, and not being able to do anything besides redirect people to a non-official source would be lame.
    Would it be lamer than making something clearly worse than the non-official source?

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Shadow_Elf's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Muarzibet, Siraaj
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [4e] The Essentials articles are atrocious.

    I don't read the stuff on optimizing - I know when I make a character the concept I am trying to build (I pick specific fluff or a special gimmick to center a character around and then build it from there), so I just ignore the page or two of CharOp and skip to the new powers, feats and paragon paths, which I enjoy reading. For example, the Duelist Rogue article was great this month, as was the Wizards essentials last month, I thought.
    My Homebrew
    Currently DMing: Heroes on a Sea of Swords - IC - OOC - OOC II - OOC III
    Many thanks to the very talented Kymme for making an Avatar of my incredibly-specific D&D character!

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Decoy Lockbox's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Maryland, USA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: [4e] The Essentials articles are atrocious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fishy View Post
    In the computer science world, it's pretty much well understood that you simply can't check a system you designed for security vulnerabilities, and you shouldn't be the only one checking your code for bugs.

    Apparently game design works the same way. Who knew?
    So I suppose the CharOp guys are the white hats, and the munchkins are the black?

    I normally turn to charop guides when I can't decide between two powers, or when I see something and go "this can't be as bad as it looks".
    Decoy Lockbox, you win the internet metal award. You are a metal god.
    My Guide to Metal

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •