[3.5] (Feat) Powerful Shot

[Xan_Kriegor]

Lacking nearly all the splatbooks (I have the Core 3 plus their II versions each, and the MIC and SpC), it is very possible for a feat that already does this to be out there. However, if it's not, then I would like to see what you Playgrounders think of this feat:

Powerful Shot [General, Fighter]

Prerequisites: Base Attack Bonus +1, Strength 13+

Benefit: When using a ranged weapon (longbows, shortbows, crossbows, bolas, etc.), you may add your Strength bonus in place of your Dexterity bonus to attack rolls if it is higher than your Dexterity bonus.

Special: A figher may select Powerful Shot as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Since there is already Weapon Finesse for melee weapons, I was thinking the strength-based counterpart might look something like that. Granted, using dexterity instead of strength makes logical sense for some weapons, and using strength instead of dexterity doesn't really make sense for ranged weapons, but I'm trying to build a character that focuses entirely on having a large Strength score and I don't want him to be teh suck for anything that isn't melee. If the feat as is is a bit too much, two things that I'd be fine with are adding Point Blank Shot as a prereq, or just restricting it to thrown weapons.

[SHAZAM]

I can see where you're coming from, but it might make more sense in-game if you restrict this to composite bows. I don't exactly see how more strength will help a crossbow.

[golentan]

I can see where you're coming from, but it might make more sense in-game if you restrict this to composite bows. I don't exactly see how more strength will help a crossbow.

Actually, I can see a case being made for holding it steady. Heavy crossbows are hard to aim because they are, well, heavy, meaning IME the nose tends to dip when you're focused on lining up the shot. And there is a vibration and kick when you do fire it (nowhere near that of most firearms, but comparable to, say, pistols).

[Ashtagon]

Using more strength on a bow than it is designed for won't really do anything much beyond cause additional wear and tear on the device. The energy that puts the arrow into flight is stored in the arms of the bow, not the arms of the wielder, and that is a function of the physical properties of the bow.

[DracoDei]

Such a feat exists in MM V p.134, but it only works for thrown weapons.

[lesser_minion]

I can see a case being made for this working on composite bows, but most likely using the strength rating of the bow or the wielder, whichever is lower. Rules already exist for being too weak to use a particular bow, however, and Ashtagon is right - while the strength of the wielder is important (people who are right handed but left eye dominant would use a bow right handed, even though firing left-handed might be a good move), you can't really put any more energy into a bow than it is designed to take.

For crossbows and firearms, it makes no sense. The larger crossbows are designed to be rested on another object when aiming, IIRC. If strength did become relevant, the weapon would have "you must have a strength bonus of +6 to use this weapon effectively. If you are too weak, you suffer a -2 penalty on attack rolls".

[Xan_Kriegor]

Thanks for all the replies guys (or gals, ya never know ) And DracoDei, thanks for pointing me in the right direction, but I'm AFB right now so I can't check exactly what it says.

And as far as how applying your Strength bonus with a bow would work in real life, for the people that are saying putting more energy (strength) into it wouldn't help at all, that would be the case for +damage, not +attack. For +attack it's something along the lines of being able to hold the bow still while you have it pulled back and not shaking.

Thanks again guys (or gals )!

[Ashtagon]

When I say extra strength wouldn't really help with a bow, I'm actually speaking from a position of expertise, having shot in several competitive archery tournaments.

Being stronger than a bow is rated for would let you pull the bow back farther, but all that will do is cause additional wear and tear. Because you would also not be able to hold it in a proper archery stance if it is "overdrawn", your accuracy would actually go down (ideal archery stance is a function of bow size and person's arm length; your ideal stance would have one arm outstretched and the bow string just in front of your nose).

The one case where being stronger than your bow is rated for could help is in being able to hold the arrow nocked ready to be launched for an extended period. Normally, holding a drawn bow for longer than a minute is quite tiring if you are only just strong enough for the bow. But this is a situation that hardly ever happens in D&D. Again, this won't assist in accuracy (aiming benefits don't accumulate over periods that long).

ETA: btw, in either mm4 or mm5, there is a version of this feat which functions only for thrown weapons.

[Volos]

There is already a feat like this, but for thrown weapons. Dexterity is your ability to control or manipulate an object. Strength is your ability to lift or smash objects. Being really strong but clumsy isn't going to help you hit a target with a bow or even crossbow. Being fairly weak but accurate is what makes you hit a target. This feat makes no sense.

[Xan_Kriegor]

Yes LordWolfgang, I was aware when I wrote the feat that it would not make sense in the real world. However, D&D does not equal the real world. Also, thank you LordWolfgang (and Ashtagon) for pointing out the feat in MM5, but DracoDei already pointed it out.

@Ashtagon: Yes, I was agreeing with you in my previous post. I agree that pulling the bowstring extra-far won't help; what I was saying is the strength bonus might come from the ability to hold the string pulled longer, as you said. Also, chances are that the bow I get for my character will meet his strength score, it's just that I want him to be able to hit things with it when he does try to use it (the difference between his strength score and dexterity score is.... rather high ).

[Cieyrin]

People keep mentioning Brutal Throw but not where it actually is. It first appeared in Complete Adventurer, with a reprint call-out that goes with the Ruin Elemental in MMIV, I believe.

The feat makes sense for thrown weapons, given it's the same sort of motion for them as melee weapons and similar principles can be applied. You could say the same of slings, which work to enhance the throwing motion. I wouldn't apply such a feat with a bow or crossbow, as mentioned above, as firing either is less physical strength and more a mental action of where you're aiming and judging your firing angle so your projectile lands where you want it to. This is also the reason why Zen Archery works, as perception and intuition work the later part of it.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

[Temotei]

People keep mentioning Brutal Throw but not where it actually is. It first appeared in Complete Adventurer, with a reprint call-out that goes with the Ruin Elemental in MMIV, I believe.

Such a feat exists in MM V p.134, but it only works for thrown weapons.

The feat makes sense for thrown weapons, given it's the same sort of motion for them as melee weapons and similar principles can be applied. You could say the same of slings, which work to enhance the throwing motion. I wouldn't apply such a feat with a bow or crossbow, as mentioned above, as firing either is less physical strength and more a mental action of where you're aiming and judging your firing angle so your projectile lands where you want it to. This is also the reason why Zen Archery works, as perception and intuition work the later part of it.

Agreed on all of it.

[Ashtagon]

@Ashtagon: Yes, I was agreeing with you in my previous post. I agree that pulling the bowstring extra-far won't help; what I was saying is the strength bonus might come from the ability to hold the string pulled longer, as you said.

I think you missed my point.

Our hypothetical bow user who is far stronger than his bow is designed for can indeed hold his bow nocked ready to fire for ten minutes. But beyond about 10 seconds, aiming doesn't significantly improve your accuracy. This is better represented by a feat such as Dead Aim from d20 Modern, rather than any kind of Strength bonus.

(Aside: army snipers armed with rifles spend most of their "aiming" time actually waiting for a target to present itself. Once a target has presented itself, their aiming time is no more than 10 seconds).

[AgentPaper]

This is a bad idea both from a realism standpoint and a gameplay standpoint. Mostly, "I want to specialize in something, but I don't want to have weaknesses in something else because of that" is a horrible reason to homebrew something.