[3.5] How do mindless creatures react to illusions?

[SpikeFightwicky]

Specifically, if there are 4 skeletons at one end of a narrow room shooting arrows at us, and I illusionate a brick wall 'sealing' them in (I forget which illusion spell it was, but it had only a visual effect, and was not mind-affecting), how will the skeletons react? They can still 'hear' us (I'm not sure how skeletons perceive their environment), but they can't see us. Will they try to tear down the wall to get to us (breaking the illusion), or will they 'de-activate', since they no longer have a way to reach us? Also, if we step through the wall illusion to ambush them, will they follow us out if we step out?

[Nero24200]

It would really depend on their orders. Generally, if they're ordered to kill by the one who animated them, they'll likely try to rip the wall down. If they're ordered to "Guard", they probably will just leave them alone.

However, if "Guarding", they won't follow when you step through, so yes, that's an easy way to take down mindless foes.

[Burley]

Well, keep in mind that they don't get a will save until they interact with the wall. If you are able to make the illusion appear to have arrows stick into it, they won't know it's fake or not until they try to touch it, which they probably won't do unless their master is right there to order them to.

[Cyrion]

Most undead are immune to most illusions since they're mind affecting.

[drengnikrafe]

I suspect the illusion(s) in question are not the mind affecting, but rather the ones that manifest themselves and are then perceived as if they were real based on the observations.

If I were DMing this game, I would agree with Nero to a point. The first time you do this, maybe the first 2 times, you've done something clever and new. After that, taking down the undead like that would be a "cheap shot", and I would not award experience for it (because you didn't learn anything new).

[Gnaeus]

That is a perfectly appropriate use of silent image. You don't need to bother with things like arrows sticking out of the wall, because they are mindless. They don't know the difference between arrows passing through it or sticking into it. They can't reason.

Remember that the party is using expendable resources (a spell) to bypass an encounter, and should therefore get xp. Mindless things generally have a lower CR than their other stats would indicate, precisely because they can be short circuited by intelligent play. Intelligent undead animators/controllers, on the other hand, will be aware of this tactic, and respond appropriately (like putting skeletons on both sides of where the party is likely to come, or giving some of them standing orders to walk through suddenly appearing walls.)

[Optimystik]

Most undead are immune to most illusions since they're mind affecting.

But not Figments (i.e. the Image line) because those are not mind-affecting. They don't act on the mind at all.

[SpikeFightwicky]

It was Silent Image or Minor Image (can't remember which one I had prepared). We had a rather lengthy discussion OOC about how the skellies would react (though much of it was spent explaining how it wasn't mind affecting, so it could work).

In the end, the DM ruled that they'd just stay there and do nothing, so we did a couple of hit and runs through the wall to finish them off (they had bows and no melee weapons, so no AoOs). I'm not sure if the DM was 100% ok with his ruling (might have just ruled to move things along), so I was wondering what other people might think.

[Foryn Gilnith]

It really does depend on the orders they were given. I'd have the skeletons blindly shoot into the wall, probably not hitting anything but still feeling a bit dangerous from all the arrows flying about.

[ericgrau]

They are mindless automotons that follow their last order, much like video game mobs . Most likely the skeletons were told to attack any intruders. So once you leave they wouldn't care anymore, and the hit and run tactics should work.

[crazedloon]

how does the body react when it fails a will save vs a image spell that looks like a wall. If you were to touch the wall would your hand stop or pass through it? If that was the case than would you not auto pass the will save as logic dictates the wall is not there? If that is the case waht happens when a creature does not/ can not use logic such as mindless undead? Would the skelis just stand swattting at air as they tried to rip the wall down?

[ericgrau]

IMO you "left" so they don't care about you any more. Remember, skeletons draw no conclusions. You're "gone".

[Grumman]

It really does depend on the orders they were given. I'd have the skeletons blindly shoot into the wall, probably not hitting anything but still feeling a bit dangerous from all the arrows flying about.

How do you justify this? Why would a mindless creature react to the existence of this particular brick wall by shooting it?

[Foryn Gilnith]

They were ordered to attack. The existence of a wall in the way wouldn't stop that once they started. They'd attack until (and after) they ran out of arrows. They just wouldn't aim worth balls, or shoot anything once arrows ran out.

And that's just how I felt like interpreting at the time. Without specific orders known, their reaction cannot be realistically determined.

[Saph]

Mindless creatures still get a will save if they interact with the illusion, mindless or not; that's the rules. They're capable of pathfinding, so if they see direct evidence that the wall doesn't hinder progress (eg an adventurer stepping through) they'll probably chase him through the wall.

Remember, they're not utterly brainless; they have to have the equivalent of a fairly good computer AI to be able to walk, handle weapons, shoot accurately, navigate towards targets, etc.

[lsfreak]

My reasoning:
The skeletons would stop firing. They may have Int--, but they have Wis10, so they know a 'solid' wall is useless to try and shoot through. They may try to tear it down, especially since you made it encompassing them entirely, depending on their orders, or they may stand there. If trying to tear it down, they don't go anywhere because they never realize the wall isn't there.

If you had instead, for example, put the wall between them and you rather than completely around then, at that point they would have no reason to try and tear it down. They may try and find a way around the wall by going a different route, but would have no reason to try and get through the wall.

@crazedloon
Your hand always passes through the wall. It's that without trying you get no save, when a situation warrants (such as seeing an arrow pass through the wall) you get a save, and when you yourself interact with it you auto-disbelieve it. It gets a bit more DM-call when you have illusory creatures because it gets a bit grey about what actions warrant a save and which ones don't.

[Lysander]

If you're running from skeletons and you close a door, they'll try to break down the door to get to you even if they can't see you. So if a mindless creatures thinks you're behind a barrier they'll try to get through it.

The illusionary wall trick would only let you escape if you cast it when they aren't looking, for example right after you turn a corner while running away. Then they might keep running past.

[crazedloon]

@crazedloon
Your hand always passes through the wall. It's that without trying you get no save, when a situation warrants (such as seeing an arrow pass through the wall) you get a save, and when you yourself interact with it you auto-disbelieve it. It gets a bit more DM-call when you have illusory creatures because it gets a bit grey about what actions warrant a save and which ones don't.

ok well lets get a little wierder what if you have Chains of Disbelief (Ex)

Spoiler

Show

Even if a viewer disbelieves an illusion created by an illusionist using this variant and communicates the details of the illusion to other creatures, those other creatures do not receive the normal +4 bonus on their saying throws to disbelieve the illusion. Furthermore, even when presented with incontrovertible proof that the illusion isn't real, creatures must still succeed on a Will saving throw to see objects or creatures that the illusion obscures, although they get a +10 bonus on the saving throw.

and they fail their save as they touch the wall?

[lsfreak]

Even if a viewer disbelieves an illusion created by an illusionist using this variant and communicates the details of the illusion to other creatures, those other creatures do not receive the normal +4 bonus on their saying throws to disbelieve the illusion.

Self-explanatory. Your illusions are so real that no one 'wants' to disbelieve them.

Furthermore, even when presented with incontrovertible proof that the illusion isn't real, creatures must still succeed on a Will saving throw to see objects or creatures that the illusion obscures, although they get a +10 bonus on the saving throw.

This means that the disbelief rules are like normal; interaction = auto-disbelieve. But when someone DOES realize the wall isn't there, the magic of the illusion is strong enough to still block line of sight, while normally disbelieving means that you only see the rough outline of the illusion and it doesn't bother your ability to see.

[Clementx]

If you're running from skeletons and you close a door, they'll try to break down the door to get to you even if they can't see you. So if a mindless creatures thinks you're behind a barrier they'll try to get through it.

They try to open the door, then force it, because with Wis 10, they know how doors work, and they know they can be broken. They also know how walls work as well. They know they can't break through brick with claws, so they don't try.

If you allow skeletons to try to break down a "solid" wall to get at a target, then you must have them do so at all times. When a target goes around a corner, they skeleton must spend 3-4 weeks tunneling through diagonally. Mindless creatures can use pathfinding to take the most direct, passable route.

[Jothki]

ok well lets get a little wierder what if you have Chains of Disbelief (Ex)

Spoiler

Show

Even if a viewer disbelieves an illusion created by an illusionist using this variant and communicates the details of the illusion to other creatures, those other creatures do not receive the normal +4 bonus on their saying throws to disbelieve the illusion. Furthermore, even when presented with incontrovertible proof that the illusion isn't real, creatures must still succeed on a Will saving throw to see objects or creatures that the illusion obscures, although they get a +10 bonus on the saving throw.

and they fail their save as they touch the wall?

They'd probably think that the wall is blocking them, even if it isn't. Even if their body passes though it, they'll think that it had stopped at the edge of the obstacle. The illusion will overpower what their senses are actually telling them.

[SpikeFightwicky]

I think the main 'hard to rule' issue was that they could still hear us, assuming skeletons hear as a human would (skelly sense aren't very well defined so we assumed they could perceive sound like a regular human). So we pondered how the mindless enemies would process a solid barrier while still being able to hear us.

Also, this was the layout:

*__*
*AA*
*AA*
*__ *
*__ *
*__ ******
*
*OO*****
*SS*
****

*s are walls, Os are the illusionary wall, Ss are skeletons, the underscores are there because I can't get the diagram to look right otherwise and As are adventurers (we, the PCs ). The hallway was a wider and the skelly room was bigger, so it's not to scale. We had to get around the corner, and the skeletons were in a small side room at the end of the hall shooting at us.

[RagnaroksChosen]

They'd probably think that the wall is blocking them, even if it isn't. Even if their body passes though it, they'll think that it had stopped at the edge of the obstacle. The illusion will overpower what their senses are actually telling them.

I have to agree with this for all illusions that grant a save vs disbelief. If they interact with it.. including trying to pass through it and they fail there save they would think they would be stoped.

So if the skeletons where looking at the illusionary wall and where going to try to break it down that would be interacting with it and would get there save. if they failed the save they would continue to try to break down the wall and never succeed as they think its real.

[Kantolin]

The (well, 'a') problem with mindless undead automatically attempting to break down illusion-walls comes when your party illusionist then summons an /actual/ wall of stone, and expects consistency. Especially involving 'meld with stone'.

Or when it's not a solid halt, but a pseudo-maze of illusionary walls. Skeletons can go around, you can go through - again permitting hit-and-run tactics.

Really, just have a necromancer there to direct them. Then he can straight-forward notify the undead to walk into the clearly an illusion.

[Another_Poet]

Specifically, if there are 4 skeletons at one end of a narrow room shooting arrows at us, and I illusionate a brick wall 'sealing' them in (I forget which illusion spell it was, but it had only a visual effect, and was not mind-affecting), how will the skeletons react? They can still 'hear' us (I'm not sure how skeletons perceive their environment), but they can't see us. Will they try to tear down the wall to get to us (breaking the illusion), or will they 'de-activate', since they no longer have a way to reach us? Also, if we step through the wall illusion to ambush them, will they follow us out if we step out?

In the specific example you describe, the illusion spell is not mind-affecting so mindless creatures do not react any differently than creatures with minds.

The skeletons would act however they would act if a physically real solid barrier appeared blocking their progress.

[ghashxx]

Okay, I'm getting conflicting messages on this board. Do unthinking undead get a save against illusions or not?

[Foryn Gilnith]

If given a reason or incontrivertible proof of the illusion's illusory nature, they will receive a save or an auto-pass. And they have nice will saves. But, as mindless creatures, the criteria required to make something qualify as a reason in their semi-minds will be numerous.

My opinion.

[Optimystik]

"Skeletons cannot form conclusions" suggests they have no way to defeat a figment. They chase the PCs, who vanish behind a "wall" - to the skeletons, first their quarry is in sight, then it is not. They cannot speculate why, thus they get no will save. They hear sounds behind the wall, and fire arrows (assuming their instructions indicated they should do so); the arrows disappear through the wall - they cannot speculate why. They will fire until they can no longer hear the sounds, one way or another.

[Kantolin]

They hear sounds behind the wall, and fire arrows (assuming their instructions indicated they should do so)

I agree with this post.

In addition, the above instructions would be a terrible idea, as then your skeletons would squander all of their arrows against the first creature that makes noise on the other side of a real wall. :P

[Optimystik]

In addition, the above instructions would be a terrible idea, as then your skeletons would squander all of their arrows against the first creature that makes noise on the other side of a real wall. :P

One would imagine the necromancer who left such instructions also left many arrows.