How to deal with cheaters at the table

[Ormagoden]

So after reading a post earlier today I was inspired to pose this problem to my new friends here at the Gitp forums.

I attend a Tuesday night gaming group almost every Tuesday.
Lucky I'm a player in this group.

For a very long time now I have noticed that a particular player will do the following during combat.

Roll an attack roll
Quickly pick up the dice
Throw it down onto the table (so its not on the same number anymore)
Types the number into their calculator
Rattles off a high 20's low 30's number to the DM

The same is likewise when a skill check is made.

The only exception to this is when I specifically look at the dice when they roll and they notice me watching.

A few months back for ha ha's I was with this player in another campaign and I wrote down the number on the dice they called out to the DM for every roll they made. (they were across a very large table at the time) For 5 sessions straight nothing lower than a 15 was ever "rolled".

Recently at my current table this has been happening frequently.

As an adult I understand the need to succeed and have that feeling of accomplishment.

I also understand that there are ways to address this:
Have a side talk with the player.
Talk with the DM.
Address it at the table.
Don't worry about it.

However there is an additional social situation that complicates the matter.

The player has been banned exiled from groups before (Mainly because she would not sleep with another DM's buddy, but I digress.) There were attempts to heal this old group but they all failed.

So after reading above...And assuming I am a relatively savvy and smart individual; who knows that this is an issue that should be dealt with carefully.

How would you forum members proceed if the above situation was at your table?

[AtwasAwamps]

Ask them to sleep with you! When they don't, kick 'em out of the group.

Foolproof.

I would pull them aside and have an honest chat with them. If they admit it and change their ways, well and good. If they refuse to admit it and storm off, meh. If they refuse to admit it and don't storm off, but keep playing, there's a chance they'll stop doing it quite as much now that they know someone noticed.

[Jan Mattys]

I'd stick a generic "NO CHEATING" sign at the exterior of my DM screen.

No names, nothing.

Even the dumb ones get the hint, and they usually appreciate not to have been confronted face to face.

[Ormagoden]

Ask them to sleep with you! When they don't, kick 'em out of the group.

Foolproof.

I would pull them aside and have an honest chat with them. If they admit it and change their ways, well and good. If they refuse to admit it and storm off, meh. If they refuse to admit it and don't storm off, but keep playing, there's a chance they'll stop doing it quite as much now that they know someone noticed.

Yeah, I'm not so much down with that first part as they are my friend. Also my sweetness might get mad at me for asking another lady to sleep with me!

I've also been on many occasions instructed by the above player to "add what (EXP) we should have earned, instead of what the DM told us to write down"

I left that bit out...

[Ormagoden]

I'd stick a generic "NO CHEATING" sign at the exterior of my DM screen.

No names, nothing.

Even the dumb ones get the hint, and they usually appreciate not to have been confronted face to face.

Sorry for the double post but I'm not actually the DM of this group (I rarely get to PC anymore )

[Jan Mattys]

Sorry for the double post but I'm not actually the DM of this group (I rarely get to PC anymore )

I'd stick a NO CHEATING sign at the exterior of the DM screen, then.
Works anyway.

[Ormagoden]

hahah!

[Guinea Anubis]

what I would do is this, I would talk to them away from everyone else. I would nicely tell them what I "think" I have seen. I would also be sure to persent it in a concerned way "because you like gaming with this person and do not want to see them forced out of another gaming group over something silly like this".

After that if it keep happening and bugs you talk to the DM.

[jiriku]

Any of the four solutions you suggested would be appropriate. It's very reasonable for you to consider attempting any or all of them in whatever combination seems best to you.

I understand that past history makes things a tad complicated. But let me ask you this: Is she your friend? If she is, do you respect her and care about her enough to take a risk and confront her on her unethical behavior? On one level, this is just a game, but on another level, you're a lot like that guy who's considering whether to take the keys away from his friend who's had too much to drink and is about to get behind the wheel.

[AtwasAwamps]

Any of the four solutions you suggested would be appropriate. It's very reasonable for you to consider attempting any or all of them in whatever combination seems best to you.

Including asking her to sleep with you. That's key.

[Ormagoden]

this is just a game, but on another level, you're a lot like that guy who's considering whether to take the keys away from his friend who's had too much to drink and is about to get behind the wheel.

I wouldn't equate it like that exactly but I see your point.

I honestly think the cheating is a symptom of her last dysfunctional group.
I really just wanted to see if my thoughts were on the right page.

I would REALLY appreciate a female perspective on this as well so someone wrangle up a lady friend and send her over to the thread.

[Gamerlord]

Whenever one of my players dares to cheat, a bloodbath ensues, their character is not going to survive the carnage, but as I am usually a DM.

As a player, I usually outright say it at the table, maybe I'm just bold, or I go for the subtle approach "Gee, you sure are rolling really well!" or "Wow, that die isn't fixed is it?" in a " " or " " like manner, but it gets the message across.

[Radiun]

"I noticed you never seem to roll anything lower than a 15. Now I like you, so I just think your the luckiest roller in the world and should be playing at a casino, but others might get suspicious. Also, Kobolds, they're the swellest"

That last phrase is the main point. If she denies that Kobolds are the best, there MUST be something wrong.

[Mastikator]

Try to catch him red handed, then you stand up, point in his face and yell "J'ACCUSE!"


That's how not to do it

One thing you can do though is roll all the dice. Tell them it's so they can't calculate the AC of the monsters, and the HP. To prevent meta-gaming, and help them focus on the roleplaying by not confusing them with numbers.
You don't have to actually confront him or even deal with him, but the dice problem is solved.

And regularly check their characters. For DMy reasons, and totally not to check that they didn't make any (intentional beneficial) errors, which you can politely point out without needing to insinuate anyone.

[AtwasAwamps]

I would REALLY appreciate a female perspective on this as well so someone wrangle up a lady friend and send her over to the thread.

Protip: Girls are meaner to other girls than guys are.

Above tip is a generalization. ::prepares for assault::

[Ormagoden]

Protip: Girls are meaner to other girls than guys are.

Above tip is a generalization. ::prepares for assault::

::Teleports under the nearest table or inside the closest bathtub::


(PS I haven't seen ::action:: since my aol days huzzah!)

[Mongoose87]

Protip: Girls are meaner to other girls than guys are.

Above tip is a generalization. ::prepares for assault::

Wow, first you insult women, then you prepare to assault them!?

[Seatbelt]

One thing you can do though is roll all the dice. Tell them it's so they can't calculate the AC of the monsters, and the HP. To prevent meta-gaming, and help them focus on the roleplaying by not confusing them with numbers.
You don't have to actually confront him or even deal with him, but the dice problem is solved.

If a DM suggested this I might give it a shot for one night - I'm always down for new things - but I probably wouldn't keep playing the campaign past the first session. If I wanted to have all the calculations go on behind the scenes I'd play a video game.


Also I can't add. When I started using a random number generator at higher level play it sped up my turns so much my friends didn't care if the high/low distribution was extremely uneven (5 or 6 highs and then 4 or 5 lows in a row)

[Megaduck]

Well, all other history aside the first thing you need to do is ask yourself,

"Does this bother me?"

D&D is a game that can be played a lot of different ways. Some people play it like a mechanical war game where every role matters and others play it like a free form story telling session where dice rolls may be fudged or ignored all together.

I don't know what style your playing or want to play but you're goal in the game is to have fun. If her cheating is hurting your fun and the fun of the table then I advise you to talk to either quietly take her aside or talk to you DM. Depending on the personalities involved.

If its not damaging your fun that you could simply ignore it.

[Rhiannon87]

Er... not sure why a "female perspective" is important, but as a girl D&D player, here goes.

The way I see it, it isn't your responsibility to deal with cheaters. It's the DM's job. The DM is responsible for maintaining order and enforcing rules at the table, so talking to the cheater is their job. I'd talk to your DM and mention that you've observed her fixing her rolls, and ask that he talk about it with her. Let him decide how to handle said talk and what the "punishment" for continued cheating will be. You could suggest that the DM start enforcing a rule where all players roll their dice out in the open (as opposed to on character sheets or behind dice boxes or whatever).

I'm not quite sure if or how her past bad experiences with a group are to blame here (although as an aside, what the hell sleazebags kicking someone out of a game in retaliation for saying no to sex, that's seriously just gross). Maybe she feels like if she's a really successful character then those same kind of threats won't be made against her? You might be reading into her motives a little too much with that, and her motives aren't the issue. She's cheating; it's a problem; it needs to stop. IMO, it is the DM's responsibility to handle such things.

[Keshay]

I'd openly ask how many times per day theie character is supposed to be able to use their reroll special abilities, which feat/item they're getting it from, etc...

Blatant cheaters like this will not change their ways due to private conversations or subtle clues, often they don't consider that they're actually doing anything wrong.

If its a matter of not wanting to hurt tender feelings, have a discussion with your DM. If they choose to keep her around, I suggest a particular kind of curse where there is a 50% chance of the die roll is reversed. (1 is a 20, 15 is a 6, etc...). Have her announce her unmodified rolls only, then have her roll a d6, on odds, the roll stands, on evens its reversed. If she starts coming up with inordinate numbers of 10, 11, 12s, well you have your answer as to whether she's learned her lesson.

As for her history of being banned, I'm assuming the "reason" cited of declining to sleep with the DM's buddy is her version of the story? I'm tempted to suspect that perhaps she was banned for cheating and that the untoward advances of the old DM's buddy are a cover story.

[AtwasAwamps]

The way I see it, it isn't your responsibility to deal with cheaters. It's the DM's job. The DM is responsible for maintaining order and enforcing rules at the table, so talking to the cheater is their job. I'd talk to your DM and mention that you've observed her fixing her rolls, and ask that he talk about it with her.

This is absolutely correct. It even supersedes attempts to sleep with her.

For now.

[Ormagoden]

As for her history of being banned, I'm assuming the "reason" cited of declining to sleep with the DM's buddy is her version of the story? I'm tempted to suspect that perhaps she was banned for cheating and that the untoward advances of the old DM's buddy are a cover story.

Nah its true...Sadly.

Er... not sure why a "female perspective" is important, but as a girl D&D player, here goes.

Because as a woman you have insight to how a woman feels of course!
I'm a man, all we have insight about is how to grill a steak and when it is and isn't ok to eat the family pet...or maybe that's just me.

Thanks for confirming my thoughts everyone!

[FMArthur]

May I suggest an alternate approach? I don't see the problem with just stating your observations: "you always roll high, you re-roll quite a lot, and you don't roll where others can see it... it looks pretty suspicious." It's not unreasonable to ask others to try not to look like they're cheating. Either they come up with a good reason for why they can act like a cheater (really hard, since some cheater behaviors have no other explanation), or start rolling in plain view and playing honestly ("to alleviate your suspicion"; they don't even need to admit to cheating). Perfectly safe and reasonable.

[Rhiannon87]

:: headdesks forever ::

This is absolutely correct. It even supersedes attempts to sleep with her.

For now.

One: so glad that the men in my gaming group are either married, dating, or gay, AND they're all mature enough to handle opposite-sex relationships without defaulting to thinking about how to seduce the women in the group.

Because as a woman you have insight to how a woman feels of course!
I'm a man, all we have insight about is how to grill a steak and when it is and isn't ok to eat the family pet...or maybe that's just me.

Thanks for confirming my thoughts everyone!

Two: Women are not a monolith. We do not all think alike. We are in fact individual human beings who have nothing in common with hive-minded creatures. I can tell you what I think about a situation. My advice is not going to be necessarily more authoritative simply because I'm a girl advising you on a problem you're having with another girl.

[/soapbox]

[Glass Mouse]

Meh. This is not a "girl" issue. It's a "cheater" issue. Don't worry about gender.

An idea I see from time to time is getting a cool dice tower of some sorts. No one is openly accused of anything, everyone gets something cool to look at.

Maybe the cheating stems from something else?
Maybe she feels outshined by the rest of the party?
Maybe she doesn't trust the GM enough?

I agree, though, that this is the GM's job. Your job, as a player, would only amount to making the GM aware of the problem.
The rest is up to him.

Edit: Rhiannon87, I'm pretty sure AtwasAwamps was just sarcastic

[Myrmex]

Ask them to sleep with you! When they don't, kick 'em out of the group.

Foolproof.

Brilliant.

[UglyPanda]

What I'd do is to put my hand over the die before or after it has been rolled and politely say "Since you have such bad vision, why don't I roll for you from now on?" and see how she reacts. This has a very very low chance of working, but it's worth a shot.

[Myrmex]

What I'd do is to put my hand over the die after it has been rolled and politely say "Since you have such bad vision, why don't I roll for you from now on?" and see how she reacts. This has a very very low chance of working, but it's worth a shot.

That one is also brutal.

[jiriku]

Two: Women are not a monolith. We do not all think alike. We are in fact individual human beings who have nothing in common with hive-minded creatures.

Ha! A shamelessly transparent lie. Whenever I do something to upset my wife, every woman in my family and our circle of friends knows about it instantly and chastises me about it. What can this be if not proof that women have a hive mind?

Edit: And don't try to throw me off with any of that "telephone" nonsense. It's a hive mind for sure.