[All Editions] Magic No Longer "Special"

[Crow]

I have been sitting around thinking about all the changes that D&D has gone through in my (rather short) memory. Reading books from the likes of Feist, and Tolkien really inspired me to play the game when I was starting out, and I remember way back reading those books how "cool" magic was. It could be subtle, or it could be world-shattering, but either way, it was something special.

Now I remember in what I played of 2nd edition AD&D, there were no real easy magic shoppes where you could just run down and pick up whatever you needed. Maybe this was a function of how my DM ran the game, so maybe and oldster can come in here and clear things up. I also remember that crafting magic items wasn't as easy as picking up a feat and learning a quick spell. You had to collect all sorts of rare crap that you really had to go out of the way for. In my mind, this was actually pretty darn cool. Every item was a potential adventure hook.

Spells were powerful, too. Much like in 3.x, magic could do some insane things. Saving throws worked a little different, but what a spellcaster could do was terrifying. They could do things that other characters simply could not do. On top of that, some spells would actually age the caster, making their use potentially dangerous! Of course, some characters would never get access to those spells, because your maximum level could be capped depending on your race. Humans didn't have this limitation, but then that aging thing came up again. I could go on, but the bottom line is that magic was special.

Then 3.x came along. The spells were still really powerful, but a great deal of it's limitations were removed as well. Now anybody could go out and learn to stop time, and they could do so at any time, without any thought to its future reprecussions beyond losing that 9th level slot. Crafting became easier. Anybody with a spare feat and the ability to cast certain spells could start up a magic shoppe. And they did. It became assumed that all characters would have access to certain magic items at set points within their career. They weren't an edge, they were an essential. By this time, magic was no longer scary, difficult, and dangerous, but just scary. It remained "special" only because of the scope of what it could accomplish.

For 4e, even more characters gained access to magic of a sort. Rituals would allow any character to perform minor magical effects at the cost of a feat. Characters were still expected to have certain items at certain points during their careers, but now it was even more critical. The mathematics that hold together the game's balance almost require it. Spells were drastically reduced in scope and power. To further aggravate this, everyone has "special effects" which while thematically are quite different, mechanically share much with their "magical" counterparts. Magic, which in previous editions had been stripped of the extra trappings which made it special, had now lost it's last bastion. It's power.

So does anybody else feel the same way about this that I do? Do you prefer the new-look magic, and like the way things have progressed over the years? Or do you prefer it the old way, as I do?

[1stEd.Thief]

I don't know anything about 4e, but I have never (even in 3.x) had a DM who would allow the kind of crazy RAW action I hear bandied about here. Basically DM >>> RAW.

Examples:
Buy a wand of CLW? Sooooooo...... where do you expect to get that? 'Cause the Cleric of Pelor who has one isn't letting hers go.

Want a PrC? Do you know anyone to teach you?

15 minute adventuring day? You are in the middle of a dark forest, it is raining, and you don't feel like resting in this mud puddle.

etc...


EDIT: uhhh... to the original question: Yes, magic should be special. You should not be able to buy a Candle of Invocation at any town, a +3 sword should be atop a dragon's hoard, not in a shop window, and for heaven's sake, make damn sure there's a TPK before the Wizard gets silly.

[Sir Homeslice]

It sounds like you prefer low-magic settings. Low-magic is fun when done right.

I on the other hand, am a fan of high-magic.

[Crow]

It sounds like you prefer low-magic settings. Low-magic is fun when done right.

I on the other hand, am a fan of high-magic.

You are right, for the most part. I like my magic to be rare, but when it is encountered, powerful. There aren't a lot of +1 swords laying around. Chances are, that enchanted sword you found is going to be something special.

But as a fan of high-magic, it sounds like you like a setting where magic is profound in it's effects on the world around it. What do you think of the current flavor of magic where this has been minimized? Or do you disagree in my assertion that it has?

[Mando Knight]

For 4e, even more characters gained access to magic of a sort.

That's because 4e starts with the assumption "Player Characters are Player Characters because they're the guys who are supposed to be the Fellowship." Some areas like the Feywild are magical places by nature, but the main World (I'll call it the Material Plane, even though 4e as far as I've read hasn't specified such a simple name for it) isn't so magical. It's got heroes and legends and dragons, yes, but that's because you're the heroes and you're making the legends. Not every Greek was a son of Zeus or a famous philosopher, but no one cares about Cephas The Shepherd Who Never Did Anything Interesting.

[BobVosh]

Buy a wand of CLW? Sooooooo...... where do you expect to get that? 'Cause the Cleric of Pelor who has one isn't letting hers go.

{Scrubbed}

Want a PrC? Do you know anyone to teach you?

meh, just hit up the bard for directions

15 minute adventuring day? You are in the middle of a dark forest, it is raining, and you don't feel like resting in this mud puddle.

Rope Trick


I like my fantasy high. I like my wizards with world shattering powers if they work for it, however for this to happen I feel magic items should be very available.

Er, late for work, finish later.

[SurlySeraph]

I agree with this to an extent. I don't want there to be a lot of "minor" magic items; I prefer for magic to be relatively rare but powerful. Now, interesting minor magic items like Immovable Rods and such are fun, but simple +1 weapons and armor aren't. I prefer for all magic weapons to have some associated special power or random quirk, something that makes them more than just an unusually effective tool.

Now, if I were running a campaign I'd let you get up to +5 enhancement bonuses on weapons and armor by different degrees of masterworking. A mundane sword that's just that good is something that fits well in my conception of fantasy. A magic sword that doesn't have any traits but being really accurate and powerful is boring. And I'd have a large random table to roll on for little quirks for magic arms and armor, and possibly for wondrous items as well. Stuff like +1 fire damage, glows blue when orcs are nearby, shrieks when it hits, feels awkwardly balanced but always seems to hit anyway. Things to give them a bit of character. I don't mind the normal Shop o' Magic world that by-the-book 3.5 envisions. It's just that I'd like something a bit more interesting better.

And I definitely agree on the spells. What 3.5 and 4E did was make spells reliable, with minimal drawbacks. From a gamist perspective, I like this. But I think I'd have more fun if wizards had to keep track of the duration on their Fly spells and you'd have to think carefully about whether casting certain powerful spells was worth the risk.

[Moff Chumley]

I'm kind of fond of the high-magic, 4e setting. Sure, I may have a bunch of magic abilities and items, but the average person is just as freaked out by them as they would've been in 2e. I want to PLAY as Gandalf, not watch him do cool things.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

It's really just that magic has become "do shiny stuff", instead of a tool of the mythic. Yeah?

[Sir Homeslice]

But as a fan of high-magic, it sounds like you like a setting where magic is profound in it's effects on the world around it.

I do. Magic is great.

What do you think of the current flavor of magic where this has been minimized? Or do you disagree in my assertion that it has?

Love/hate. On the powers side of things, I like it because you always have magic at your fingertips, and it's not overwhelmingly powerful to the point where if you don't have it, you're a chump. I don't like it, because it doesn't quite do enough, damage and effects wise. I might be unpleaseable, but I want the combat magic to really ruin things for the opponent when it gets off, but not to the point of the aforementioned chump-creation.

Rituals on the other hand, are how I like my important magic spells. It should take time to do, and cost resoruces. However, what I didn't like is 4e's execution of them taking too much time and too much money, while not doing enough to justify the cost in time and resources. There also aren't options for sacrificing more/less time/resources to increase/decrease the effects of the spell.

I want the wizad to walk around and basically bend the concept of magic over a table and screw it brainless. Trawling storms of lightning, localized blizzards, rains of fire and lava, causing people to go mad, or just jerking them around like a crazed puppeteer making his puppets dance.

So I'm pretty neutral on 4e, all things considered. It's done things fine, but it can always do much better and I'm always leery about that.

[hiryuu]

I'm tired of people assuming that "low magic" or "I want magic to be special" immediately means "you're not getting any."

I know that in most games I run, you're not going to be buying any, but if you made a wizard, you're probably the highest level wizard in the freaking kingdom. If you have a PrC, you're probably the only guy in the world to have it. If you have a magic item, you either found it or made it yourself.

[Dracomorph]

I think of it as a paradigm shift, from myths to soft Sci-Fi. Sometimes poorly-thought-out soft Sci-Fi from a setting perspective, but that's how I think of it.

I prefer the soft Sci-Fi, because it spreads out the ability to perform miraculous feats, but there's also a lot to be said for the mythic, where the deeds of the party shine brighter in a mundane world.

[Zeful]

It sounds like you prefer low-magic settings. Low-magic is fun when done right.

I on the other hand, am a fan of high-magic.

There are several different kinds of High magic. The Diadem series is an example of a high magic setting with several internal limits and consequences on magic. While The Wiz Biz is a high magic setting where spells can solve everything to the point where anyone can learn magic.

3.X tries to be both and fails miserably. Spell casting classes are on the consequence free side of the High magic spectrum, while the entire rest of the system isn't. 4e takes and ramps everything up to the same level of consequence free magic, so it's pretty balanced. 2e treats magic as, while not special, dangerous, so that it's not the obvious for everyone to take.

[FoE]

It sounds more like you wish magic was "unknowable" and "mysterious". You want Conan-style magic where "wizards" are barely more than scholars grasping at the secrets of the infinite. Where magic is not expressed in the blasting of lightning bolts and magic missles, but where true magic involves rituals and effects that are near earth-shattering, and common men quail at the sight of sorcery. Where magic is near useless, and yet where it can do virtually anything.

That sort of magic works well ... in fiction. Not so great for a tabletop gaming system. Try freeform role-playing.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I think of it as a paradigm shift, from myths to soft Sci-Fi. Sometimes poorly-thought-out soft Sci-Fi from a setting perspective, but that's how I think of it.

I prefer the soft Sci-Fi, because it spreads out the ability to perform miraculous feats, but there's also a lot to be said for the mythic, where the deeds of the party shine brighter in a mundane world.

QFT, people ought to start seeing the "soft sci-fi" aspect more. 'twould help characterizing things better. Like, it explains why I don't like that sort of fantasy nearly as much (my tastes are heavily mythic).

[Mongoose87]

It sounds more like you wish magic was "unknowable" and "mysterious". You want Conan-style magic where "wizards" are barely more than scholars grasping at the secrets of the infinite. Where magic is not expressed in the blasting of lightning bolts and magic missles, but where true magic involves rituals and effects that are near earth-shattering, and common men quail at the sight of sorcery. Where magic is near useless, and yet where it can do virtually anything.

That sort of magic works well ... in fiction. Not so great for a tabletop gaming system. Try freeform role-playing.

They have it in Call of Cthulhu!

[Oracle_Hunter]

Oldster arriving!

Yes, 2E had rare magic - it said so right in the DMG. Item creation was a matter of time, luck, and lots of quests to gather the required materials. Yeah, have fun when your DM decides that your Cloak of Displacement needs to be washed with the essence of the Demiplane of Shadow - for a start

Actually, pull out your old DMG and re-read it. In retrospect, 3E was all about looking at the DMG and then doing exactly what it warns against.

[Seatbelt]

I like the idea that magic is powerful and rare. I like how they handle it in Dragon Age: Origins. Everyone has nifty powers that all do sort of the same thing. Everyone has status affects, debuffs, buffs, etc. Wizards get those too but they also have world-shattering powers. However a lot of them are dangerous AOE that can really mess up the party. So you get your ultimate cosmic power, and limited opportunity to use it. Thats really more a facet of the game mechanics and it wouldn't work so well in pen and paper.

But they fluff it well too. You have ultimate cosmic power. But if you abuse it, there are people who have the sole purpose in life of hunting you down, stripping your magical protections, and killing you.

[Doc Roc]

It's really just that magic has become "do shiny stuff", instead of a tool of the mythic. Yeah?

In a week, I'll have something really cool to show you. :)

[Zeful]

It sounds more like you wish magic was "unknowable" and "mysterious". You want Conan-style magic where "wizards" are barely more than scholars grasping at the secrets of the infinite. Where magic is not expressed in the blasting of lightning bolts and magic missles, but where true magic involves rituals and effects that are near earth-shattering, and common men quail at the sight of sorcery. Where magic is near useless, and yet where it can do virtually anything.

That sort of magic works well ... in fiction. Not so great for a tabletop gaming system. Try freeform role-playing.

You're referring to me right? If so, then no, you're wrong. I prefer a game where magic is limited in what it can do but still mysterious. I'd rather play Score or Pixel over Wiz (for those that don't know who those are, I provided links to the series they're from). The apprentice, working his way to becoming the master, that kind of thing. 3.5 does not run this style very well, if at all.

[elliott20]

hell, wizards in a lot of fantasy fiction were more like plot devices than actual characters. And some of the stuff you see in say, Arthurian legends or in Tolkien aren't even THAT powerful.

[Tyndmyr]

I don't know anything about 4e, but I have never (even in 3.x) had a DM who would allow the kind of crazy RAW action I hear bandied about here. Basically DM >>> RAW.

Well, yeah...and keep in mind that some of the stuff here is pure TO. However, Ive played in campaigns that allowed RAW levels of magic.

Examples:
Buy a wand of CLW? Sooooooo...... where do you expect to get that? 'Cause the Cleric of Pelor who has one isn't letting hers go.

If magic items are in that short supply...where you'd have to search someone out, and offer them piles of gold to get a trivial item, the correct thing to do is grab a crafting feat, and announce that you're selling your items for piles of gold in each town.

Want a PrC? Do you know anyone to teach you?

This is ridiculous. I mean, advancing in the vanilla classes is really no different from advancing in PrCs.

15 minute adventuring day? You are in the middle of a dark forest, it is raining, and you don't feel like resting in this mud puddle.

In practice, parties will continue adventuring until they feel it's too dangerous to continue. 15min adventuring day is one extreme end of that spectrum, and yes, sometimes it makes sense. Other times, it's either not possible due to plot requirements, or just isn't needed.

And at about level 5, an extended rope trick will cure all environmental issues, and that's core.

EDIT: uhhh... to the original question: Yes, magic should be special. You should not be able to buy a Candle of Invocation at any town, a +3 sword should be atop a dragon's hoard, not in a shop window, and for heaven's sake, make damn sure there's a TPK before the Wizard gets silly.

Im a fan of the restrictions that already exist for most expensive item available in a town of a given size. It makes sense that a bustling metropolis would have some specialized gear that hicksville #213 would not.

However, Im also a fan of allowing purchasing. Take that away, and you screw over melee types pretty hard.

[Yahzi]

Now I remember in what I played of 2nd edition AD&D, there were no real easy magic shoppes where you could just run down and pick up whatever you needed. Maybe this was a function

It was a function of the fact that there were no rules for making magic items. At all. Magic items were things you found, not made. You couldn't even recharge a wand.

This was perfectly in keeping with the Vancian air of grave-robbing adventurers digging through the ruins of grand civilizations. It doesn't really work so well with Imperial France.

And of course the players are part of the problem - we're so used to continual progress that we can't even relate to the medieval mind. A historical example: when Alfred Krupp cast the first steel breech-loading cannons, he sent one to the Czar of Russia. The Czar's generals tested it, discovering it could shoot 3 times farther and faster than their old bronze muzzle-loaders. When Krupp got back to them to ask how many they wanted to order, the told him they were so impressed with it that they put it a museum for military oddities.

It wasn't until tiny Austria humbled mighty France that armies actually started buying these demonstrably superior weapons. Imagine having your NCPs be that hidebound in your D&D game - your players would throw dice at you.

3E created rules for making items - which was nice, since we GMs needed some. But then they made them easy - you can craft items as low as 1st level. The sole limiting factor on casters was spells per day, and wands and scrolls simply erased that. Any wizard who doesn't have a scroll of every single spell he knows, and a wand or three of the spells he uses the most often, is too stupid to be a wizard. There is no running a wizard out of spells, or catching him with the wrong spells. There is only the DM forcing the wizard to ignore the crafting rules and common sense so the game can be about something other than how much gold the wizard has.

[Tyndmyr]

Actually, WBL should prevent you from keeping scrolls of everything around. Keep scrolls only for those situationally awesome spells that you very rarely need. Keep wands for non-CL dependent things like buffs. The rest...prepare.

[Vortling]

My personal "magic isn't special" take is that it's the + items causing the problem. A character's ability to hit, do damage, avoid hits, and avoid magical effects should be inherent to the character, not something provided specifically by magic items. I prefer to have magic items be things like immovable rods and decanters of endless water that allow you to do something new and different rather than "oh you're level x, guess you need to find yourself gear of +y to be effective". In short, I hate how both 3.5 and 4e run their magic items, even though those are the only two editions of D&D I've played.

[Tyndmyr]

Well, it's not so much that +stats are bad...it's just that it's boring. By itself, it has no flavor.

I recommend you dump +stat items entirely, but use the MiC rules of adding +stats to existing magical items. That way, players can still get the benefit if they wish, but it's in a somewhat more interesting way.

I also do agree that focusing on rarity to make something "special" is certainly not the only, and probably not the best way to do it.

[Tiki Snakes]

It sounds more like you wish magic was "unknowable" and "mysterious". You want Conan-style magic where "wizards" are barely more than scholars grasping at the secrets of the infinite. Where magic is not expressed in the blasting of lightning bolts and magic missles, but where true magic involves rituals and effects that are near earth-shattering, and common men quail at the sight of sorcery. Where magic is near useless, and yet where it can do virtually anything.

That sort of magic works well ... in fiction. Not so great for a tabletop gaming system. Try freeform role-playing.

Actually, from what I read of the Conan Tabletop gaming rpg book (d20 one, I suspect there are others?) Magic EXACTLY like that does indeed work very well.

[FoE]

You're referring to me right?

What? No, I wasn't referring to you, Mr. Thinks-the-World-Revolves-Around-Him.

[JonestheSpy]

Actually, pull out your old DMG and re-read it. In retrospect, 3E was all about looking at the DMG and then doing exactly what it warns against.

Oh yeah.

Definitely in Crow's camp here.

[Draz74]

My personal "magic isn't special" take is that it's the + items causing the problem. A character's ability to hit, do damage, avoid hits, and avoid magical effects should be inherent to the character, not something provided specifically by magic items. I prefer to have magic items be things like immovable rods and decanters of endless water that allow you to do something new and different rather than "oh you're level x, guess you need to find yourself gear of +y to be effective". In short, I hate how both 3.5 and 4e run their magic items, even though those are the only two editions of D&D I've played.

+1. (Heh, irony not intended!)

In my system, I'm making it so magic items only add a maximum of a +1 bonus to basic things like attack/damage/AC/saves. And a lot of them won't even do that.

Overall magic items should be a lot rarer, but if you want an example of a "common" magic weapon? OK. Here's a Flaming weapon. No, it doesn't deal +1d6+1 damage. It just deals the same amount of damage as normal, but Fire damage instead of Slashing damage. Now, while it's useful, its uses are situational. And therefore the high-level character with no magic items is still much more powerful than the uber-wealthy Level 2 character.

(Congratulations, you have completed a difficult quest and have found Ignatinate, the legendary Spear wielded by the pyromaniac hero Verimaakk! This isn't your average Flaming Ranseur. No, this one gives you a +1 bonus to attack and damage! And +1d6 damage against Ice Devils! And lets you commune with Verimaakk's spirit and ask him one yes/no question once per adventure! And all of those benefits are only after you spend a week Attuning yourself to the weapon, and you can only have a limited number of items Attuned. So yeah, the weapon is certainly useful, but magic items are still a small fraction of your character's total power.)