I have something I have to say about Eberron.

[Cyclone231]

Sure, halflings riding dinosaurs is cool and all, but raptors are a pretty implausible selection. As far as I know, raptors are pack animals, and historically pack animals were only used as aids to hunting, not for riding. We used herd animals for riding. Halflings should probably ride triceratops or similar animals.

There, I said it.

[Tavar]

Can you name a pack animal that is big enough for humans to ride?

[AstralFire]

Triceratops are bad. ass. Screw raptors.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Can you name a pack animal that is big enough for humans to ride?

Lions.

And if they could be ridden, we would. They'd be faster than Bear Calvary.

[Cyclone231]

Can you name a pack animal that is big enough for humans to ride?

A Utahraptor.

[Tavar]

One that existed at the same time recorded history/humans did? Cause otherwise, we really have no basis for comparison.

[Asbestos]

Can you name a pack animal that is big enough for humans to ride?

Exactly. What the hell is a difference between a pack and a herd? You could just say 'Riding Predators is implausible because Humans don't ride Predators'. The answer is the same though, what domesticated predator is big enough for a human to ride?

Killer whales?

The domesticated part is key, people don't ride Zebras for a reason...

[Cyclone231]

People don't ride wolves and halflings wouldn't ride raptors for the same reason: they're too smart. A wolf is going to go "Oh, look, fighting. Let me just go the other way so I don't get killed." Horses, like most herd animals, are too dumb to do this, and so can be rode. Also, predators are bad choices because they're too aggressive and would be too busy trying to fight themselves.

Early humans tried all kinds of crazy crap with domestication; I believe at one point they tried getting their jaguars (?; might've been another big cat) to ride their camels with them so that the jaguar could jump off and attack. Believe me, if there was a pack animal that could be ridden, they would have done so.

[Crow]

I always wondered why the indians didn't ride buffalo.

[Seatbelt]

I always wondered why the indians didn't ride buffalo.

depending on who you talk to, the Indians didn't ride a lot of things because they were too busy killing them. :P

[Asbestos]

People don't ride wolves and halflings wouldn't ride raptors for the same reason: they're too smart. A wolf is going to go "Oh, look, fighting. Let me just go the other way so I don't get killed." Horses, like most herd animals, are too dumb to do this, and so can be rode. Also, predators are bad choices because they're too aggressive and would be too busy trying to fight themselves.

Early humans tried all kinds of crazy crap with domestication; I believe at one point they tried getting their jaguars (?; might've been another big cat) to ride their camels with them so that the jaguar could jump off and attack. Believe me, if there was a pack animal that could be ridden, they would have done so.

Let's talk about domesticated Wolves AKA Dogs.
People don't ride dogs because they are too small and their backs can not support large enough loads. A sufficiently trained dog is not going to go "oh, look, fighting. let me just go the other way so I don't get killed." Horses are NOT stupid. Untrained Horses get spooked and flee (by your definition 'smart') It takes a lot of training and a horse capable of learning to produce a war horse. Also, not just predators are aggressive creatures. Anyway, the whole aggression thing has to do training. Well trained dogs don't get into a frenzy like a shark.

Yes, people have tried to domesticate leopards (I think that's what you meant maybe? though I've never heard of such an application) and cheetahs and tigers and hyenas and etc. But they've also tried to domesticate African Elephants, Zebras, Deer, and a wide variety of other still 'wild' herd animals. Some animals just do not predispose themselves well to domestication. Lions, btw, are NOT big enough to comfortably carry a human. Their bodies are not built in a way that lends itself to supporting a large amount of weight on their backs. Actually, the early horses couldn't support a 13th century Knight either, but that's what a thousand+ years of breeding is for.

[Tavar]

Good Stuf

I was looking for sources in order to type up something like that, but Asbestos beat me too it. I'd like to add that it's very hard to tell what animals can and cannot be domesicated. I mean, look at Domestic Asian Water Buffalo and Cape Buffalo.

[BobVosh]

depending on who you talk to, the Indians didn't ride a lot of things because they were too busy killing them. :P

Darn animals are always too full of delicious, delicious meat. Also for the Indians: tents, tools, etc.

Are you really asking how hobbits halfings ride raptors in a setting like Eberron? A Wizard Did It is the whole setting. Obviously someone messed with raptors brains until they are trainable.

[Cyclone231]

To use your "logic," Asbestos, consider: if the early horse could not support a 13th century knight, and the early wolf could not support a rider... why would only one develop into a domesticated riding animal? Hmm?

[averagejoe]

I always wondered why the indians didn't ride buffalo.

Hey, buffalo will eat you!

[AstralFire]

To use your "logic," Asbestos, consider: if the early horse could not support a 13th century knight, and the early wolf could not support a rider... why would only one develop into a domesticated riding animal? Hmm?

The horse was frequently used to pull chariots, etc, and were bred for additional strength and speed, until they could bear a rider incidentally. Then those were bred for more until they could be ridden even by men in armor.

As far as I know, dogs aren't used for transport outside of frigid areas.

[Tavar]

To use your "logic," Asbestos, consider: if the early horse could not support a 13th century knight, and the early wolf could not support a rider... why would only one develop into a domesticated riding animal? Hmm?

Why can only one eat meat now? Hmm? Why can't Human's Fly?

Because evolution, selective breeding, and genetics only go so far. The early horse would have been smaller, yes, but not that much smaller. Unlike dogs. Now, that's as far as I know for sure, and I could be completely off base with this, but I think the following holds true as well. Horses were better built to carry weight on their back. Thus, when they get bigger, they can carry heavier weights. Dogs, however, are not built for this, and thus there is a much lower limit to what they can carry, in addition to the penalty posed by their size.

[Asbestos]

To use your "logic," Asbestos, consider: if the early horse could not support a 13th century knight, and the early wolf could not support a rider... why would only one develop into a domesticated riding animal? Hmm?

For one reason its because Dogs are not large enough, breeding can only do so much. Get me a HORSE SIZED DOG and I'll put a person on it. Then however, I would need to start breeding a horse sized dog capable of carrying a lot of weight on its back.

[chiasaur11]

For one reason its because Dogs are not large enough, breeding can only do so much. Get me a HORSE SIZED DOG and I'll put a person on it. Then however, I would need to start breeding a horse sized dog capable of carrying a lot of weight on its back.

Which would waste a lot of useful things dogs can do already for functions already fulfilled.

[Tavar]

Actually, that reminds me of the General Series. It has Dogs the size of horses used for essentially the same thing (it's in the far off future after a galactic civilization has collapsed, so it's not entirely improbably). It is noted in the book that calvary is alot more dangerous, as Dogs are primarily carnivores, and, well, you can guess the rest.

[Worira]

I always wondered why the indians didn't ride buffalo.

Because elephants were way more awesome.

[Tyndmyr]

Can you name a pack animal that is big enough for humans to ride?

Dogs. And yes, they've been used for riding. Of course, this is mostly by children, because size is still an issue.

But yeah, your basic point that a pack animal can certainly be ridden is sound.

[Asbestos]

To drive home the size thing...
Zorba, the largest dog known weighed 343 lbs. This is less than a biggish Llama (upwards of 450lbs), one of the smallest animals reasonably capable of carrying a light person some of the time. This is less than half the weight of a light riding horse and maybe a 1/3 or 1/4 of the destrier, the ancestors of modern draught horses. The largest recorded horse ever was a massive Shire (a breed that descends from the olde English war horse) which weighed over 3000lbs.

[icefractal]

Lions

From way back in post 3. So why is everyone arguing whether wolves are big enough to ride? Now you could say that maybe Lions are unsuited for other reasons than being a pack hunter, but you can't say there weren't any rideable pack hunting animals.

[Asbestos]

From way back in post 3. So why is everyone arguing whether wolves are big enough to ride? Now you could say that maybe Lions are unsuited for other reasons than being a pack hunter, but you can't say there weren't any rideable pack hunting animals.

Yeah I can.
The large range for a lion is between 400 and 500lbs, again, much smaller than a light riding horse. In addition to the whole 'can't carry weight on its back' thing, a lion pretty much, at most, has a shoulder height of 4ft, about the size of the average llama (of which only the biggest can begin to maybe sometimes carry a person without a load) and again, at least a foot or more shorter than a horse.

[Tavar]

From way back in post 3. So why is everyone arguing whether wolves are big enough to ride? Now you could say that maybe Lions are unsuited for other reasons than being a pack hunter, but you can't say there weren't any rideable pack hunting animals.

Lions, btw, are NOT big enough to comfortably carry a human. Their bodies are not built in a way that lends itself to supporting a large amount of weight on their backs. Actually, the early horses couldn't support a 13th century Knight either, but that's what a thousand+ years of breeding is for.

Reading all replies helps.

[Tyndmyr]

He's got a point...besides, most animals are unsuitable for riding, of any particular type(mainly due to size).

If you can arbitrarily fix size, it's not all that unlikely that you'll find a couple of the type that could work. Hell, if we made insects big enough, some of those could probably be used.

[Cyclone231]

The reason there are no pack hunters large enough to ride is because humans killed them all because they were competitors, not prey. The same would apply for halflings.

[Asbestos]

The reason there are no pack hunters large enough to ride is because humans killed them all because they were competitors, not prey.

Indeed we have killed off all large predator species... wait, what?

The same would apply for halflings

So halflings have killed off all predators/competitors bigger than them. Right.

[Cyclone231]

Indeed we have killed off all large predator species... wait, what?

The birth and expansion of the human species coincided with a huge depopulation of megafauna. The handful of major predators (wolves and bears and such) still around exist in very small amounts, even in absolute terms. They only still exist because some people want to keep them around. If people hadn't set aside national parks and other conservation projects, they would all be dead.