DnD 3.5 Ray-Spells need precise shot?

[KurtKatze]

Hey guys, sorry if this has been asked before but i didnt find anything useful with the search option.

However:

The PHB doesn't clearly state if the malus for "shooting" into melee applies to a ray spell aka ranged touch attack. I know i can use true strike to pretty much ignore this but a true strike before every ray hurts a bit.

And without the -4, chances to hit are quite good. Leaving a true strike combination for those moments the ray REALLY REALLY has to hit. But if i need prec. shot this means 2 feats which sucks ^^

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[Longcat]

The -4 penalty does indeed apply to ranged touch spells fired into melee. Precise Shot offsets this.

On a site note, True Strike really shines with Quicken Spell.

[Curmudgeon]

If you're getting +20 to hit, you shouldn't worry about a -4 penalty. +16 is plenty good.

[jiriku]

IIRC, Races of the Wild has some elven wizard racial substitution levels that will let you use the wizard bonus feats to take point-blank shot and precise shot. This won't reduce the overall feat cost, but may smooth out your leveling progression by giving you more choices as to when you'll take the feats.

[Lapak]

If you're getting +20 to hit, you shouldn't worry about a -4 penalty. +16 is plenty good.

The original poster knows that, but doesn't want to burn a True Strike each and every time that they want to cast a ranged touch spell.

Unfortunately, that means that they will need to invest in the feat.

[ericgrau]

Burning a 5th level spell slot for every ray spell you cast gets expensive, and is a quickened spell that could best be put elsewhere at high levels when most of your touch attacks are hitting anyway. Just take precise shot, or don't fire into melee. If you're a focused ray caster I'd say this is a must, but if you have plenty of other spells you can just use them until you get a clear shot on someone who's not engaged in melee.

[katans]

I wouldn't waste a feat (nay, TWO feats) on it. Get a Warlock's Scepter to partially offset the penalty, pump up Dex, use Greater Invis. You're firing against a Touch AC, which is generally pretty low.

[jiriku]

I asked about this a few weeks ago, and got lots of good advice.

[ericgrau]

I wouldn't waste a feat (nay, TWO feats) on it. Get a Warlock's Scepter to partially offset the penalty, pump up Dex, use Greater Invis. You're firing against a Touch AC, which is generally pretty low.

Except at low levels, when it isn't much lower. Levels 1-10 are gonna suck. At high levels it's better but it's still a mix of AC 5 gigantic creatures and much higher ACs. Together they deceptively average out to the same as low levels, when really it's a mix of good and bad. Again, either carry a mix of spells so you only ray the vulnerable ones, or if you're focusing on rays then you get precise shot.

[dsmiles]

Yes. Ranged touch attacks require point blank shot and precise shot. The downside is that you have to burn two feats to be any good at firing that ray into melee, the upside is that there is also Weapon Focus: Ray, Spell Specialization: Ray, and Improved Precise Shot. Yes, burning 3 more feats, but you will be the god of Ranged Touch attacks.

[ken-do-nim]

FYI, I instituted range increments for ranged touch attacks:
close: 10 feet
medium: 40 feet
long: 120 feet
so that makes precise shot even more important in my games.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Time to stop playing the mailman and start playing batman...

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Yes. Ranged touch attacks require point blank shot and precise shot. The downside is that you have to burn two feats to be any good at firing that ray into melee, the upside is that there is also Weapon Focus: Ray, Spell Specialization: Ray, and Improved Precise Shot. Yes, burning 3 more feats, but you will be the god of Ranged Touch attacks.

You end up winning the side game.

[KurtKatze]

Thank u so far.

The real Prob is, we are talking about a SORCERER here :) menas i can't even quicken true strike can i? Quicken requires a prepared spell i think. And i'll have even less feats available in the MM-Feat department.

Have to go through the intire spells again i th8ink, check all the rays and if they are worth it all throughout 9th grade i'll take the goddamn Prec Shot ...

Thank u for ur opinions and ideas guys!

Maybe it would help to post the intire concept please safe comments about min-maxing or powergaming, because this isn't a real powergaming char but i dont want him to completely suck either ;)

we start at lvl 5:

Male Halfling age 53 ( -1 Phys, +1 ment)

Str 9
Dex 16
Co 16
Int 14
Wis 11
CH 18

Classes:

Sorc 6/ Alienist 9/Fatespinner4

Not absolutely sure about the 9 alienist... although it's a funny class it isnt really worth it... perhaps only 3 for the style and the metamagic bonus feat.
( the prob with the Know(Planes) is sorted out due to a well made backgroundstory :) dm agreed bec he doesnt think the class is imba and agrees that it sucks that sorc dont get all knowledge skills^^)

Thought about changing the familiar for a feat with the "Loner" Flaw or mb take a humming bird for the ini Bonus

Feats i really want to take are:

heighten spell (nice 1 for sorc)
Spellpenetration
Greater SP
Arcane mastery (Those 3 should sort out most SR problems)
The rest is still quite open :)

[ericgrau]

There aren't many creatures with SR at lower levels. I'd get the SR breaking feats at higher levels. Like maybe plan ahead to have all of them by level 15ish or earlier. So get the first one on level 6 or 9, unless you have other feats that gotta wait until high level.

FYI, I instituted range increments for ranged touch attacks:
close: 10 feet
medium: 40 feet
long: 120 feet
so that makes precise shot even more important in my games.

Time to stop playing the mailman and start playing batman...

He has a point. Those penalties are a bit harsh. A lot of ray spells are close range, so at a -2 per increment they may not be worth taking at all. He only has a +5 to hit at his level, +9 to +10 with precise shot. Maybe half his spells still hit. But when you compare that to say, half your opponents failing a save on a multi-target spell that debilitates multiple enemies instead of maybe doing HP or ability score damage to one enemy, ray spells aren't looking so hot. I'd maybe double those increments.

[ken-do-nim]

I'd maybe double those increments.

Here's how I chose the increments. Range for close is 25 ft + 5 ft every 2 levels. A 10th level wizard therefore gets a range of 25 + 50/2 = 50 feet.

Thrown weapons have a max of 5 range increments, shot weapons 10. Shot weapons have a max range much further than close, so thrown weapons are the better comparison. 50 / 5 = 10 feet.

Btw, I should point out that I change the range increment rule to be "up to and including" so for instance if you throw a shuriken at somebody 10 feet away, that's at the edge of the first range increment and not subject to a penalty. So for your 1st level wizard attempting to shoot a ray of enfeeblement with a 25 foot range that comes out to:
5 or 10 feet away: no penalty
15 or 20 feet away: -2 to hit
25 feet away: -4 to hit

[ericgrau]

Yeah, I get the logic behind it. It's just that now he needs 2-3 feats just to make rays as good as non-ray spells. Or perhaps still behind them, if he's not firing into melee a lot. That is unless he's chucking those cheesy orb of X spells, in which case he wouldn't have to bother with all those spell penetration feats.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Lose Spell Pen. Go to the SpC, open it to page 17, and look at Assay Spell Resistance. Yeah. Why spend a feat when you can spend 1 swift action and a single spell slot.

Edit: The theory behind range increments is that the ammo becomes unstable and goes off course more the further you shoot it. That makes sense with actual ammo, but not with spells.

[jiriku]

Sorcerers can cast quickened spells, in fact there are several ways to do it.

1. At 9th level, you'll qualify for the Rapid Metamagic feat, which lets you apply metamagic without increasing casting time.
2. PH2 includes an alternate class feature allowing you to sacrifice your familiar in exchange for the ability to apply metamagic without increasing casting time a few times per day.
3. At 14th level you can learn arcane spellsurge (from Dragon Magic) a spell which briefly reduces the time it takes you to cast spells.
4. Alternately, arcane fusion and greater arcane fusion (from Complete Mage) are spells that allow you to cast two low-level spells simultaneously for the price of one higher-level spell. This isn't really quickening, but it is a two-for-one deal.

[KurtKatze]

Ohhh, some very nice ideas there... i think i rather go for the "Assay Spell Resistance". Think i can "sacrifice" that 4th level spell slot for a nice +10 caster lvl check, saving 3 feats.

AND it is a swift action ok, that's sorted out than THX!

[ken-do-nim]

Ohhh, some very nice ideas there... i think i rather go for the "Assay Spell Resistance". Think i can "sacrifice" that 4th level spell slot for a nice +10 caster lvl check, saving 3 feats.

AND it is a swift action ok, that's sorted out than THX!

... and that's why I ban Assay Spell Resistance.

Edit: The theory behind range increments is that the ammo becomes unstable and goes off course more the further you shoot it. That makes sense with actual ammo, but not with spells.

True, though there should still be some loss of accuracy from distance alone. Maybe -1 per range increment instead of -2?

[Toliudar]

Nothing says that rays are lasers. They could move at subsonic speeds, sputter and dive like roman candles. Truth be told, the idea of range penalties for rays appeals to me.

[ericgrau]

True, though there should still be some loss of accuracy from distance alone. Maybe -1 per range increment instead of -2?

That's the same effect as doubling the range increment, so I'm all for it. And a -4 at max range is suckage, but it's not the end of the world like a -8 is. Likewise at moderate range -2 hurts, but it's not suckage for 90% of attacks like a -4 is. This sounds reasonable.

[KillianHawkeye]

Btw, I should point out that I change the range increment rule to be "up to and including" so for instance if you throw a shuriken at somebody 10 feet away, that's at the edge of the first range increment and not subject to a penalty. So for your 1st level wizard attempting to shoot a ray of enfeeblement with a 25 foot range that comes out to:
5 or 10 feet away: no penalty
15 or 20 feet away: -2 to hit
25 feet away: -4 to hit

That's how range increments normally work.

[sofawall]

That's the same effect as doubling the range increment, so I'm all for it. And a -4 at max range is suckage, but it's not the end of the world like a -8 is. Likewise at moderate range -2 hurts, but it's not suckage for 90% of attacks like a -4 is. This sounds reasonable.

Not quite, but close.

[PhoenixRivers]

The -4 penalty does indeed apply to ranged touch spells fired into melee. Precise Shot offsets this.

On a site note, True Strike really shines with Quicken Spell.

Shines even more with a lesser rod of quicken. That way, you can keep your level 5 slots.

Range increment 10 =

0-5 feet, no penalty
10-15 feet = -2
20-25 feet = -4
30-35 feet = -6
40-45 feet = -8
50 feet = -10

[ken-do-nim]

That's how range increments normally work.

I wish you were right, but the text doesn't want to play along. d20 srd:

Range Increment
Any attack at less than this distance is not penalized for range. However, each full range increment imposes a cumulative -2 penalty on the attack roll. A thrown weapon has a maximum range of five range increments. A projectile weapon can shoot out to ten range increments.

So, it says less than, not less than or equal to. So yeah, if your monk has a shuriken, any target 5 feet away gets an attack of opportunity because you are making a ranged attack, and any target 10 feet away is a full range increment and the monk is -2 to hit. The weapon simply cannot be used effectively by RAW. This goes for flaming oil and all the other 10 foot range weapons.

[PhoenixRivers]

I wish you were right, but the text doesn't want to play along. d20 srd:

Range Increment
Any attack at less than this distance is not penalized for range. However, each full range increment imposes a cumulative -2 penalty on the attack roll. A thrown weapon has a maximum range of five range increments. A projectile weapon can shoot out to ten range increments.

So, it says less than, not less than or equal to. So yeah, if your monk has a shuriken, any target 5 feet away gets an attack of opportunity because you are making a ranged attack, and any target 10 feet away is a full range increment and the monk is -2 to hit. The weapon simply cannot be used effectively by RAW. This goes for flaming oil and all the other 10 foot range weapons.

Flaming oil is a touch attack. I've built rogues around hiding and throwing close range weapons.

-2 for shooting 20-30 feet away (Far Shot doubles thrown weapons increment)
+1 Point Blank shot
+2 Invisible modifer (for having total concealment)

Ends you with a net bonus on a touch attack, and you can add sneak attack to it.

[KillianHawkeye]

I wish you were right, but the text doesn't want to play along. d20 srd:

Range Increment
Any attack at less than this distance is not penalized for range. However, each full range increment imposes a cumulative -2 penalty on the attack roll. A thrown weapon has a maximum range of five range increments. A projectile weapon can shoot out to ten range increments.

So, it says less than, not less than or equal to. So yeah, if your monk has a shuriken, any target 5 feet away gets an attack of opportunity because you are making a ranged attack, and any target 10 feet away is a full range increment and the monk is -2 to hit. The weapon simply cannot be used effectively by RAW. This goes for flaming oil and all the other 10 foot range weapons.

I disagree. By my reading, a 10 ft. range increment assigns no penalty up to 9.99 feet. That's two whole squares (10 feet) of range, unless the target is nearly microscopic in size. If there's fully 10 feet of distance between you and the target, it is 15 feet away (assuming it fills a whole square), and thus in the next range increment. So your shuriken-wielding monk can in fact attack nonadjacent foes at no penalty.

[PhoenixRivers]

I disagree. By my reading, a 10 ft. range increment assigns no penalty up to 9.99 feet. That's two whole squares (10 feet) of range, unless the target is nearly microscopic in size. If there's fully 10 feet of distance between you and the target, it is 15 feet away (assuming it fills a whole square), and thus in the next range increment. So your shuriken-wielding monk can in fact attack nonadjacent foes at no penalty.

Incorrect. When measuring distance, D&D rules require you count the square of your target as a full 5 feet. No Pythagorean theorem to compute angle distances, just count every other diagonal as 10 feet.

Much of the Real World common sense you cling to must be checked at the door for D&D.