Cost of lead (DnD3.5)

[Cyperphobe]

Hey, I was looking through my books and noticed that while they mention that a thin sheet of lead blocks most incoming detection and divination spells, they do not mention how much it costs to obtain such a sheet of lead.

Am I missing something, or is there really nothing to tell you how much lead costs?

[jmbrown]

Hey, I was looking through my books and noticed that while they mention that a thin sheet of lead blocks most incoming detection and divination spells, they do not mention how much it costs to obtain such a sheet of lead.

Am I missing something, or is there really nothing to tell you how much lead costs?

Price it yourself. Lead is a weak metal but it's not uncommon. Depending on how rare it is in your setting, I'd say 5gp per pound is a decent price.

[bosssmiley]

The simple fact is that lead is historically cheap, it being plentiful, easy to extract, and easy to work. Modern prices have lead as about 1/3rd of the price of copper, rather than it being equal in price to silver as jmbrown suggests above (what do they roof temples with IYG mate? ).

On that basis the price of a 5lb sheet of lead from a wholesaler in D&D land would probably be no more than ~6sp.

[Curmudgeon]

5 lbs. of lead nicely formed into 10 ½ lb. balls costs 1 silver piece. 5 lbs. of lead pounded flat should cost the same. Lacking a lead sheet supplier, you could buy sling bullets and a hammer and make the sheets yourself.

[Yahzi]

Here's a D&D book with the price of lead in it:

Ye Olde Shoppe

And it's free!

Edit: er... the book is free, not the lead.

[Starbuck_II]

Hey, I was looking through my books and noticed that while they mention that a thin sheet of lead blocks most incoming detection and divination spells, they do not mention how much it costs to obtain such a sheet of lead.

Am I missing something, or is there really nothing to tell you how much lead costs?

They have a lead lined cloak in Complete Scoundrel.

[BobVosh]

5 lbs. of lead nicely formed into 10 ½ lb. balls costs 1 silver piece. 5 lbs. of lead pounded flat should cost the same. Lacking a lead sheet supplier, you could buy sling bullets and a hammer and make the sheets yourself.

Since I just woke up I stared at this sentence for like 4 minutes. I kept reading the bold part over and over. I then thought "wait, what?" I dunno why, but I kept reading it as 5lbs of lead formed in a 10.5 lbs ball.

Anyway, shouldn't it be cheaper? Or is ammunition so easy that working it doesn't cost anything?

[Curmudgeon]

Anyway, shouldn't it be cheaper? Or is ammunition so easy that working it doesn't cost anything?

Lead is quite soft. Forming it into balls or into a flat sheet is about the same amount of effort. In our industrial society we've got heavy duty rollers that quickly flatten material into sheets, which results in a lower cost of fabrication. If you're doing it by hand, it's about the same amount of work to bash lead flat as it is to squish it into a round form.

[jmbrown]

The simple fact is that lead is historically cheap, it being plentiful, easy to extract, and easy to work. Modern prices have lead as about 1/3rd of the price of copper, rather than it being equal in price to silver as jmbrown suggests above (what do they roof temples with IYG mate? ).

On that basis the price of a 5lb sheet of lead from a wholesaler in D&D land would probably be no more than ~6sp.

Wood, straw and mud. Real men don't need anything else

[Vizzerdrix]

Wood, straw and mud. Real men don't need anything else

Ick. That would be one big job and wouldn't last as long as lead sheeting. Lead would save on the temple's coffers. Copper would be better, but then it takes on that weathered coloring and looks bad.

EDIT: Also, wood/straw/mud would be too heavy. You'd want solid oak beams and pine shingles at the least for a wood roof. Ceder shingles work best I think. Not sure, as I haven't worked on a roof since I was a wee lad.

[MickJay]

Forming lead into balls was done by pouring molten lead from a high tower, through a heat-resistant sieve, into a water tank below the tower. The lead formed into spheres as it was falling down and kept its shape after being rapidly cooled in the water. Lead formed into sheets would probably be more expensive than ammunition, but as it is a soft and easy to work with, the difference in price shouldn't be significant.

[RS14]

Forming lead into balls was done by pouring molten lead from a high tower, through a heat-resistant sieve, into a water tank below the tower. The lead formed into spheres as it was falling down and kept its shape after being rapidly cooled in the water. Lead formed into sheets would probably be more expensive than ammunition, but as it is a soft and easy to work with, the difference in price shouldn't be significant.

As far as I know, that was only used to make shot; it wasn't used until the 18th century. I imagine the tolerances for sling bullets are much lower.

[ericgrau]

Right, that was a process to make them perfectly round to fit in a gun. For slings blacksmiths probably molded lead or pounded it. Or both. I bet you could "mold" it while cold (actually called forging) using a couple of iron forms.

But the simple answer to this question is that lead is so cheap that a player may obtain a single sheet without worrying about the cost. Even at level one.

[MickJay]

As far as I know, that was only used to make shot; it wasn't used until the 18th century. I imagine the tolerances for sling bullets are much lower.

We are talking about D&D here, it doesn't really matter when it was done IRL, as long as you can replicate it without using electricity; stones remained the ammo of choice for slingers for as long as slings were in use, and D&D has it made of lead.

[Foryn Gilnith]

as long as you can replicate it without using electricity

When you have mages, reserve feats, and Storm Bolt, why is that even a concern?

[ericgrau]

stones remained the ammo of choice for slingers for as long as slings were in use, and D&D has it made of lead.

Greeks upgraded to lead way back in the B.C.'s, and it was an advantage over their opponents using stone. FWIW Wiki says they were cast. Stones are just cheap and easy to fine. By RAW you can use any old rocks you find on the ground for unlimited ammo and the only drawback is slightly less damage. But many details about D&D weapons still don't match history. Oh well.

[Myrmex]

When you have mages, reserve feats, and Storm Bolt, why is that even a concern?

Because using your mage to make lead bullets is a huge waste of resources. If you're using a mage to replicate something that could easily be done with commoners, you're doing it wrong.

[PhoenixRivers]

If you're looking to apply it to Rooms, the Arms and Equipment guide has the information you seek, I believe.

[MickJay]

@ericgrau Even if you are from a culture that developed lead ammo (and Greeks were hardly the only sling users out there), you are going to run out of it eventually. Most of the ancient manuals are notorious for describing solutions that worked well in perfect conditions, the good ones actually had suggestions on what to do when you're not fighting in optimal circumstances. Some of the siege equipment, for example, was just preposterous and would require inactivity, if not cooperation, from the besieged to work properly.

Plus, if we're talking D&D, what's more interesting, boring old metal casting, or pouring lead off a huge tower?

About electicity, even if you can replicate it easily with magic, it stops being fantasy and becomes steampunk (electropunk?). "Any sufficiently advanced magic becomes indistinguishable from technology", as Giant wrote, and arguably, having power plants, even if they're magical, isn't really fantasy anymore.

[sambo.]

If you're doing it by hand, it's about the same amount of work to bash lead flat as it is to squish it into a round form.

err, surely you'd just melt said lead and pour it into a mould to make sling bullets.

[Thurbane]

I'd be inclined to go with Curmudgeon's suggestion regarding sling ammo above.

However, another option would be to base it on the raw materials prices in the SRD. One pound of copper = 5sp. According to current day base metal prices, lead is worth approximately 1/3 of what copper is, so you could guesstimate the price of lead in D&D to be around 2sp per pound (double the price of iron).

Of course, modern day metal prices aren't entirely relevant in a D&D economy...and also doesn't include the price of hammering it into a thin sheet.

[Ormur]

In stronghold builders guide lining 1600 square feet of walls with lead costs 1000gp but the prices there tend to be obscenely expensive.

[Dimers]

Nobody's mentioned yet that the cost would be affected by the qualities it lacks in today's world -- like, say, being known to block divination. That could bring the cost up considerably.

[Worira]

It could, but it doesn't. Otherwise sling bullets would cost more than they do. And I think some people are overestimating the difficulty of working lead. It has an extremely low melting point, so anyone with a pile of wood can melt the stuff, and it's quite soft, so anyone with a hammer can pound it flat.

[MickJay]

SBG, you have to remember that these are the prices for the filthy rich PC classes. You can get stuff done for about 5% of the listed price, if you bother to hire people for their standard wages, rather than paying the whole amount up front. A bit like hiring a team of builders nowadays, really.

Another amusing bit is that a decent sized dungeon, with all the decoration, would cost a few million gp, while the treasure it houses rarely exceeds a hundred thousand gp. And then you get the really funny stuff when the DM doesn't stop to think a little longer, like having an entrance door made of adamantine that is worth more than everything else in the dungeon.

Having lead cost 1/3 of what the copper does would be about right.

[PhoenixRivers]

SBG, you have to remember that these are the prices for the filthy rich PC classes. You can get stuff done for about 5% of the listed price, if you bother to hire people for their standard wages, rather than paying the whole amount up front. A bit like hiring a team of builders nowadays, really.

Another amusing bit is that a decent sized dungeon, with all the decoration, would cost a few million gp, while the treasure it houses rarely exceeds a hundred thousand gp. And then you get the really funny stuff when the DM doesn't stop to think a little longer, like having an entrance door made of adamantine that is worth more than everything else in the dungeon.

Having lead cost 1/3 of what the copper does would be about right.

I never do that. If there's an adamantine door, it's part of the mission's treasure.

Why? Because my players routinely break them down and use them as improvised weapons.