Honey, I shrunk my wizard

[Gorilla2038]

(This is 3.5 if it matters)

Recently, my party of third level characters was running in a underground catacomb area, that had been filled with enough bad vibes and magic that i decided to throw a wild magic area at them, a la AD&D forgotten realms. I informed the party of this in character, but the wizard decided this was a rumor, like the majority of info on the dungeon they could find.

I decided that every other spell or item used would instead be a random magic effect from this table
http://www.mikem.net/alveon/fmsurges.htm

On the 8th spell cast(they really aren't the wisest party), my wizard was shrunk to 1/12th her size, permantly, as 324 on the list. At the time, i said this made her tiny, which i thought gave +4 dex, -4 strn and the host of others.

So: heres my problems

1.) Is 1/12th size of a smallish human wizard tiny?
2.) Is the +4 dex/-4 str correct? Are there rules for that somewhere?
3.)If it she should be either tiny or smaller, should i allow it? Im worried that as a caster, that to be smaller could make her a god in the party, as she does no less damage and gets a massive bonus to hit.
4.)She wishes to make an spell that would boost her back to normal, and suggested it would be third level, somewhat based on expansion. Im worried that such a spell could be used more like Giant Size, the Wu jen spell, making some warforged tank mecha-godzilla, so even if its a self only, combined with tensers tranformation, and boom. Twink

Id appreciate any thoughts/advice on my situation. Thank you.

Edit to fix link

[Grumman]

1.) Is 1/12th size of a smallish human wizard tiny?

No, it would make her Diminutive or even Fine.

3.)If it she should be either tiny or smaller, should i allow it? Im worried that as a caster, that to be smaller could make her a god in the party, as she does no less damage and gets a massive bonus to hit.

I'd allow it. She's probably using touch attacks anyway, so she shouldn't need the bonuses to hit.

[PhoenixRivers]

Diminutive, likely. Not Fine. Fine is reserved for smallish sized insects.

Diminutive is fine for a 5-6 inch tall person.

[Saph]

I'd allow it. She's probably using touch attacks anyway, so she shouldn't need the bonuses to hit.

Actually, at third level, touch attacks are annoyingly difficult for a 1/2 BAB class to land, especially once you take cover and firing into melee into account. So this change will make her a lot better with ray spells.

However, it would come with a host of other problems, the big ones being:

Encumbrance: She can't carry anything, as she's now five inches tall and most items are as big as she is.

Magic Items: Wondrous items aren't going to fit her. Using a scroll will take her several rounds to unroll the thing. Using a wand will require her to stagger around as though it were a Christmas tree. Using a staff would be . . . actually, come to think of it, this would be hilarious to watch. You should let her do it, with difficulty, just for the laughs.

Social relations: Most people are more likely to step on her than notice her and even if they hear her they won't know where the voice is coming from.

Housecats: Enough said.

[Prime32]

4.)She wishes to make an spell that would boost her back to normal, and suggested it would be third level, somewhat based on expansion. Im worried that such a spell could be used more like Giant Size, the Wu jen spell, making some warforged tank mecha-godzilla, so even if its a self only, combined with tensers tranformation, and boom. Twink

What about a transformative spell to turn into a Medium creature? Or some curse-suppression spell?

[Vizzerdrix]

All I can think of is "Wizard Viagra"

Anyways. This is interesting. Now to find a good way to get this size early. As a warforged. Toy Soldier ^_^

[ericgrau]

Encumbrance: She can't carry anything, as she's now five inches tall and most items are as big as she is.

Magic Items: Wondrous items aren't going to fit her. Using a scroll will take her several rounds to unroll the thing. Using a wand will require her to stagger around as though it were a Christmas tree. Using a staff would be . . . actually, come to think of it, this would be hilarious to watch. You should let her do it, with difficulty, just for the laughs.

But when items like food and other survival gear are sized for her, it's actually an advantage. Item weight by size decreases faster than carrying capacity by size. The only problem is getting items sized for her. Maybe she could get custom magic items made. Though if it were possible to make staffs the size of wands, I'm sure the many weak-armed wizards would already be doing it.

I'm thinking some kind of magical self-propelled staff carrying cart is in order.

[Galdor Miriel]

Obviously the counter spell would be personal, and only be an "Undo Major Shrinkage spell" That way it will have no affect on the rest of the game, and rather enhance the wizards love life, especially after a cold swim.

[Grumman]

She wouldn't be able to afford them for a while, but a pair of Casting Gloves would allow her to keep two regular-sized magic items available for use, one in each glove.

[Gorilla2038]

I should probably add some more about the campaign: there in a fairly out of the way country, not isolated but rather just...forgotten/ignored. Something like poland i guess, or perhaps a much larger Andorra.

I would say its a mid level magic campaign, right now theres a huge festival that almost doubles the capitals size, and basically anything can be made or bought. Of course, i think she/he(male playing a female) has less that 300 gold. After the festival, the chances of getting to big of magic items are well...."lets go cross the ocean to find the elves guys!" is going to be met with a warm and hearty goodbye.

I really want this to be a major RPing moment to fix this: otherwise id allow a permanent Enlarge Person as soon as she had the cash, spell or item. Id like it to be difficult(i mean, in character it was, but it was still pretty stupid), but not impossible for the character to over come. Its a long term game, planned out till at least 18 level, assuming it holds together.

Ideas for this?

[Sliver]

Why not ride the familiar? Give it barding and all..

[Vizzerdrix]

I second the familiar mount! I also don't see anything to fix. This is a great RP option with as many boons as negatives.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Magic Items: Wondrous items aren't going to fit her. Using a scroll will take her several rounds to unroll the thing. Using a wand will require her to stagger around as though it were a Christmas tree. Using a staff would be . . . actually, come to think of it, this would be hilarious to watch. You should let her do it, with difficulty, just for the laughs.

But didn't magic items (except weapons and armors) automatically resize to fit the wielder?

[Shnezz]

Try Mage Hand to hold items for her? Or... does that scale to the caster?

[Saph]

But didn't magic items (except weapons and armors) automatically resize to fit the wielder?

Just clothing and jewellery, and even then, it says "most of the time", so there are limits.

[Myou]

Diminutive, likely. Not Fine. Fine is reserved for smallish sized insects.

Diminutive is fine for a 5-6 inch tall person.

Err, that's completely wrong. Anything under 6 inches is 'Fine'.

Given that she was smallish, and therefore easily under 6ft, she should now be easily under 6 inches.

[Gorilla2038]

So what would the stat adjusts be for the transformation? Diminutive is what the common idea seems to be, and i think Fine is just to much....so shes 6 inchs tall, or at least around that. Any ideas?

[Myrmex]

4.)She wishes to make an spell that would boost her back to normal, and suggested it would be third level, somewhat based on expansion. Im worried that such a spell could be used more like Giant Size, the Wu jen spell, making some warforged tank mecha-godzilla, so even if its a self only, combined with tensers tranformation, and boom. Twink.

Make it turn the target medium size, not two size categories larger.

Also, getting the massive hide check might be a bummer for you. What level is the party?

[Toliudar]

I agree that this is a really fun thing to play with. It's occasionally annoying, occasionally a mechanical boost, and in no way nerfs the character. Perfect!

An X level custom spell that only works on her would solve your problem. The only caution I'd have for the "turns you medium" spell is its possible application to debuff very large opponents. Making it only work on humanoids would probably take care of that. Either way, I'd make this an hours/level rather than a permanent spell, but your call.

Handy Haversack-style saddlebags on her familiar might be an hilarious way to take care of hauling things around. And whenever she needs to interact with others, she just creates a minor image of herself/an idealized version of herself and the hologram does the talking.

[Gorilla2038]

Working backwards on the improveing monsters table by HD, ive got this:

Carrying weight- 1/4
+12 hide
+4 to hit/+4 to AC
-12 Grapple
-10 strength
-2 Con
+6 dex
Space 1 foot
Height 6-12 inches
1/8 to one pound

Does this seem right?

[Saph]

Sounds about right to me. What are her current stats? If she's got a Strength of 10 or less you'll have to decide where to set her new strength score.

[Yuki Akuma]

Her new Strength score would be 1. You don't get to decide. Racial modifiers (which is what size modifiers are) never put a score below 1 - or 3, if it's Intelligence and the target isn't an Animal.

[Lysander]

Why not limit her enlargement spell to Enlarge Person, but give her a way of crafting or questing for an item that applies it as a permanent effect? That way she can be diminutive or tiny as she prefers. Being a foot tall isn't much but you're far less likely to get stepped on or eaten by a cat than at 6".

[kestrel404]

2.) Is the +4 dex/-4 str correct? Are there rules for that somewhere?
According to the SRD, if you go from Medium to Diminutive, you get:
-10 str (minimum 1), +6 dex, -2 con, +4 to hit (same type of bonus as the halflings 'I'm Small, so I can hit you easier' bonus) and +4 to AC
See: http://www.systemreferencedocuments....istics-by-size

3.)If it she should be either tiny or smaller, should i allow it? Im worried that as a caster, that to be smaller could make her a god in the party, as she does no less damage and gets a massive bonus to hit.
I think it would be great for roleplaying and general fun. Besides, if you're going to use the kind of table that can shrink someone to 1/12t their size permanently, you shouldn't complain about the bonuses they get from being 1/12th their size permanently. It has far more disadvantages than advantages if you think about it.

4.)She wishes to make an spell that would boost her back to normal, and suggested it would be third level, somewhat based on expansion. Im worried that such a spell could be used more like Giant Size, the Wu jen spell, making some warforged tank mecha-godzilla, so even if its a self only, combined with tensers tranformation, and boom. Twink
If you're really worried about the spell being used on other people, instead of making it 'increase someone's size', you should have it 'move them N size categories towards medium'. Have N be something like 1 per 4 caster levels. That way she can make it back to medium size by level 12 (8 if it stacks with enlarge person). For a level 3 spell, it should also be close range (25 feet + 5 feet per 2 caster levels), have a duration of caster level hours, and able to be dispelled at will by the caster (so she can shrink back down again). That's not at all unreasonable considdering enlarge person is a 1st level spell. Fort save to negate (and she can choose to auto-fail this save!). For a 3rd level spell, this does only a little bit more than enlarge person (a 1st level spell). It can enlarge you (up to medium) more than one size category. It can also shrink more than one size category (down to medium). It can be used on enemies - making a dragon medium size really takes it down a notch - but that's on purpose! It's got a fort save to negate. If you're fighting something huge, it's likely to have a pretty high fort. So let her use it offensively - it won't be overpowered (especially in comparison to other 3rd level spells). Yes, this spell would mitigate most of her disadvantages by level 8 - for a 3rd level spell slot. I think that's not too bad. Just make sure she has to do a reasonably difficult quest before she can finish the spell.

Hope you have fun!

[stenver]

The telekinessis spell will finally be useful! Now he needs to use it or prestigitation, every time he wants to read a scroll or use a rod.

EDIT:

AND YOUR LINK IS BROKEN

[Winthur]

there in a fairly out of the way country, not isolated but rather just...forgotten/ignored. Something like poland i guess, or perhaps a much larger Andorra.

It is my understanding that you forgot Poland?

[Rainbownaga]

Wait, she was shrunk to 1/12th the size, and now she is too small for any of her previous equipment. Teehee

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Wait, she was shrunk to 1/12th the size, and now she is too small for any of her previous equipment. Teehee

Again, most magic items resize. She's only going to need new armor and weapons.

[dob]

What happens to her speed? Seems to me that her speed should scale down to, what, 2.5? 5? That's going to hamper her touch attacks pretty badly. At least until she can fly reliably.

[aje8]

Meh.... seems good for the Wizard.

I'd totally take a +7 to AC (Cause of Dex change) and Touch attacks in exchange for the occasional magic item not working, the inability to use Scrolls or Wands (which aren't super neccasary for a Wizard) and -2 con. I mean I guess you can't negotaite with people well..... but then again, image this Wizard RIDING her Raven familair say. That's overland flight without the spell slot. Sweet.

Yeah..... I'd watch said player for overpoweredness. This seems really really good to me if her familair plays. Otherwise, it seems pretty balanced.