[3.5] Divine Power & Righteous Might domain only

[ken-do-nim]

I am strongly considering a house rule that makes the spells Divine Power and Righteous Might domain only spells. Why? Two reasons:
1. The cleric buff troika of divine favor + divine power + righteous might is a big reason the cleric is considered so unbalanced.
2. I don't like the flavor. The cleric is the divine herald, but the paladin is the divine champion. I don't really think personal buffs fit with the flavor of cleric, though I am leaving them with divine favor. I do like the flavor that the strength god can grant righteous might and that the war god can grant full BAB with divine power.

An interesting outcome is that in core, divine power and righteous might do not appear in the same domain, so at least with core it is not possible to revive all 3 buffs in one cleric. I don't know about outside core though.

Thoughts?

[Saph]

Seems sensible. Both Divine Power and Righteous Might are very flavour-specific spells, so having them restricted to deities of war and strength makes sense.

[SparkMandriller]

You realise clerics get two domains, right?

I mean, it's still a nerf, but a cleric of Gruumsh or whatever could still get both spells.

Or am I doing domains wrong?

[ken-do-nim]

You realise clerics get two domains, right?

I mean, it's still a nerf, but a cleric of Gruumsh or whatever could still get both spells.

Or am I doing domains wrong?

Hadn't thought of that, but at least it'll be the orc villians and not the pcs so that can't be bad, right?

[Optimystik]

You realise clerics get two domains, right?

I mean, it's still a nerf, but a cleric of Gruumsh or whatever could still get both spells.

Or am I doing domains wrong?

The idea, I think, is that if a cleric is grabbing Strength and War he won't have space left for Planning and Undeath. Not without lots of cheese anyway.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

The idea, I think, is that if a cleric is grabbing Strength and War he won't have space left for Planning and Undeath. Not without lots of cheese anyway.

Oh, it's doable with the right prestige classes... no need to cheese it out in order to get two extra domains.

[Bagelz]

I think you're forgetting that this takes 3 standard actions to stack up, only lasts for 1round/casterlevel (1min=10 rounds for favor) and uses 3 valuable spell slots.
In a long combat these will wear off, in a short combat it's half over by the time you are fully buffed.

Tensor's transformation almost does the same thing in one spell for wizards/sorcs.

so yes, the cleric can hit more often and harder than a fighter type, but has to use resources to do so. Its not anymore broken than a dozen other classes/builds.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

I think you're forgetting that this takes 3 standard actions to stack up, only lasts for 1round/casterlevel (1min=10 rounds for favor) and uses 3 valuable spell slots.
In a long combat these will wear off, in a short combat it's half over by the time you are fully buffed.

We're concerned about Divine Metamagic and Persist Spell shenanigans here.

Tensor's transformation almost does the same thing in one spell for wizards/sorcs.

Except wizards have no combat feats and Tenser's prevents them from casting any spells.

[Kalirren]

I'd agree with this change. It seems very reasonable, and very effective for the amount of rules perturbation it would involve. You'd just have to make sure to keep a tighter eye on domains than most 3.5 material has so far, but that's just ends up as a restriction on PrCs.

[ken-do-nim]

We're concerned about Divine Metamagic and Persist Spell shenanigans here.

Actually, my group didn't know about that stuff and this was still a problem. Scout to see where the major encounter is (either via stealth or arcane eye or clairvoyance), then when it is reached, buff for 3 rounds and go in. When a cleric is 14th level, those buffs last the whole fight.

And yeah, my first attempt at nerfing divine power was to say no spell-casting while it is active, but I still decided I didn't like the flavor outside of the War domain.

[ErrantX]

If I'm not mistaken, doesn't the Competition domain grant both Divine Power and Righteous Might?

-X

[Person_Man]

You could steal a page from the Tome of Battle.

All spells have a duration of either Continuous or Instantaneous.

If a spell that you cast has a duration that is not Instantaneous, it instead has a duration of Continuous. A Continuous spell lasts continuously as long as you concentrate on it. Concentrating on a Continuous spell is a Swift Action, which you must maintain every round in order to maintain the spell. You may only have one spell in Continuous effect at any given time. If you are knocked unconscious, paralyzed, or otherwise rendered helpless, any Continuous spell you have in effect ends.

Instantaneous spells are unchanged. Casting an instantaneous spell does not end a Continuous spell that you may have in effect, unless you consume your Swift Action to do so instead of concentrating.

This tones down over buffing problems, tones down Swift/Immediate Action abuse, and eliminates some tedious duration bookkeeping, and it smooths out a caster's power curve (making them more useful at low levels, and not as uber at high levels). The CoDzilla will still be very powerful, and you might want to ban certain spells (I'm looking at you Alter Self, Polymorph, and Shapechange) if your players abuse them. But it certainly helps.

[Optimystik]

If I'm not mistaken, doesn't the Competition domain grant both Divine Power and Righteous Might?

-X

Good catch. It's in Complete Divine, page 138.

[ken-do-nim]

Good catch. It's in Complete Divine, page 138.

Yikes! What deities does it get? (I'm at work, can't look it up)

[Optimystik]

Yikes! What deities does it get? (I'm at work, can't look it up)

Kord gets it in core. His Faerun analogues are Lathander, Tempus, and Uthgar - all three of them could get this domain.

[Person_Man]

Yikes! What deities does it get? (I'm at work, can't look it up)

Kord, Joramy (Fire, Volcanoes, Wrath, Anger, and Quarrels), and Llerg (Beasts and Strength).

The Competition domain power is a (continuous, extraordinary) +1 bonus on all opposed checks.

[Tehnar]

I think its a good idea.


Actually I had a idea to change cleric casting a bit. The change would be this:

1) Expand each domain so it has about 3+ spells per level
2) The cleric uses his normal spell progression, but he gets only 1 spell per level to draw from the cleric list, while the rest comes from his domains. For example, Jozan the level 1 cleric of Pelor has 2 domain slots and 1 normal slot, instead of 2 normal slots and 1 domain slot.

[ken-do-nim]

I think its a good idea.


Actually I had a idea to change cleric casting a bit. The change would be this:

1) Expand each domain so it has about 3+ spells per level
2) The cleric uses his normal spell progression, but he gets only 1 spell per level to draw from the cleric list, while the rest comes from his domains. For example, Jozan the level 1 cleric of Pelor has 2 domain slots and 1 normal slot, instead of 2 normal slots and 1 domain slot.

Good idea, lots of work.

[ken-do-nim]

Kord, Joramy (Fire, Volcanoes, Wrath, Anger, and Quarrels), and Llerg (Beasts and Strength).

The Competition domain power is a (continuous, extraordinary) +1 bonus on all opposed checks.

Okay, so it is still possible to have all 3 buffs with this rule, but it definitely limits the universalness of it. I'm happy.

[Person_Man]

Good idea, lots of work.

Already done! The Domain Favor Soul.

[T.G. Oskar]

Well, DP + RM is mostly unnerfed without DMM, and it's mostly the basis for the melee Cleric that can outwork a Fighter/Paladin/anything-sans-ToB.

BUT!!!

...What about Gate? Why even bother to take a path of melee combat whenever necessary when you can just Gate in a Solar and have another guy like you, except improved? Gate comes late in game, but it's not like you have early-game alternatives (summons not that much, but come Planar Ally and Planar Binding, and you've got some decent meleers on both sides; Gate just ruins everything) Neither Gate, nor Planar Ally, nor Planar Binding even require Persistent Spell; they're just...there, and they pretty much ruin the game once cast. Though, if Persisted... Besides, it's not like reducing your XP cost to 500 for any and all castings is much of a loss when you can do it several times per day.

DP and RM as domain-exclusive spells (and why not? As spells limited to one domain) are cool, but that doesn't aid much to reduce the power of a Cleric. You'd need regressing to AD&D Cleric casting to make those ends meet (replacing spheres with Domains and Domain powers)

[Lamech]

Basically you assume such abuse won't happen? Otherwise starting at 9th nightmares appear and the party can NOT lose if it goes in prepared. And at level 7/8 wizards can turn into protean scourges and ruin everyones day. I mean basically everything is ruined forever if casters really try.

Edit: This happens if casters abuse planar ally/binding

[Ormagoden]

Thoughts?

Dispel Magic
Abjuration
Level: Brd 3, Clr 3, Drd 4, Magic 3, Pal 3, Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S
Casting time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target, or Area: One spellcaster, creature, or object; or 20-ft.-radius burst
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No


You can use dispel magic to end ongoing spells that have been cast on a creature or object, to temporarily suppress the magical abilities of a magic item, to end ongoing spells (or at least their effects) within an area, or to counter another spellcaster’s spell. A dispelled spell ends as if its duration had expired. Some spells, as detailed in their descriptions, can’t be defeated by dispel magic. Dispel magic can dispel (but not counter) spell-like effects just as it does spells.

Note: The effect of a spell with an instantaneous duration can’t be dispelled, because the magical effect is already over before the dispel magic can take effect.

You choose to use dispel magic in one of three ways: a targeted dispel, an area dispel, or a counterspell:

Targeted Dispel: One object, creature, or spell is the target of the dispel magic spell. You make a dispel check (1d20 + your caster level, maximum +10) against the spell or against each ongoing spell currently in effect on the object or creature. The DC for this dispel check is 11 + the spell’s caster level. If you succeed on a particular check, that spell is dispelled; if you fail, that spell remains in effect.

If you target an object or creature that is the effect of an ongoing spell (such as a monster summoned by monster summoning), you make a dispel check to end the spell that conjured the object or creature.

If the object that you target is a magic item, you make a dispel check against the item’s caster level. If you succeed, all the item’s magical properties are suppressed for 1d4 rounds, after which the item recovers on its own. A suppressed item becomes nonmagical for the duration of the effect. An interdimensional interface (such as a bag of holding) is temporarily closed. A magic item’s physical properties are unchanged: A suppressed magic sword is still a sword (a masterwork sword, in fact). Artifacts and deities are unaffected by mortal magic such as this.

You automatically succeed on your dispel check against any spell that you cast yourself.

Area Dispel: When dispel magic is used in this way, the spell affects everything within a 20-foot radius.

For each creature within the area that is the subject of one or more spells, you make a dispel check against the spell with the highest caster level. If that check fails, you make dispel checks against progressively weaker spells until you dispel one spell (which discharges the dispel magic spell so far as that target is concerned) or until you fail all your checks. The creature’s magic items are not affected.

For each object within the area that is the target of one or more spells, you make dispel checks as with creatures. Magic items are not affected by an area dispel.

For each ongoing area or effect spell whose point of origin is within the area of the dispel magic spell, you can make a dispel check to dispel the spell.

For each ongoing spell whose area overlaps that of the dispel magic spell, you can make a dispel check to end the effect, but only within the overlapping area.

If an object or creature that is the effect of an ongoing spell (such as a monster summoned by monster summoning) is in the area, you can make a dispel check to end the spell that conjured that object or creature (returning it whence it came) in addition to attempting to dispel spells targeting the creature or object.

You may choose to automatically succeed on dispel checks against any spell that you have cast.

Counterspell: When dispel magic is used in this way, the spell targets a spellcaster and is cast as a counterspell. Unlike a true counterspell, however, dispel magic may not work; you must make a dispel check to counter the other spellcaster’s spell.



There is also a greater version.
Enjoy.

[ken-do-nim]

You're not seriously going down the path of "all buffs are balanced and fine because they can be dispelled" are you?

Balance issues aside, I'm also doing this for flavor reasons, especially the comparison with the paladin class.

[The Glyphstone]

Quote of Dispel Magic.

Beads of Karma. Divine Spell Power. Ioun Stones.

It's not a significant investment of time, money, or feats/spells for a Cleric to make himself almost dispel-proof, or at the very least extremely difficult to dispel...and that's still soaking up the enemy's actions, letting the party move freely.

[Aldizog]

2. I don't like the flavor. The cleric is the divine herald, but the paladin is the divine champion. I don't really think personal buffs fit with the flavor of cleric, though I am leaving them with divine favor. I do like the flavor that the strength god can grant righteous might and that the war god can grant full BAB with divine power.

I tend to see the cleric as the holy warrior. This was his role in all previous editions, with good HP, heavy armor, good combat skill, and orders such as the Hospitalers and Knights Templar as inspiration.

3E did make the cleric more of a primary spellcaster, but a) he remained a solid combatant, and b) multiclassing became an integral part of the game. So the "holy warrior" role is filled by a cleric with the right stats, domains, feats, and spells, or a multiclassed cleric/fighter.

The paladin I see as better suited to a PrC, as he's really too mechanically redundant to be a base class, but you could also differentiate him by flavor. I tend to see paladins as *rare* and exemplary champions of Good, not of a deity. They may have a patron, but if a paladin has to choose, doing Good takes precedence over his deity's interests. These won't normally conflict, but they might on rare occasions.

[ken-do-nim]

I tend to see the cleric as the holy warrior. This was his role in all previous editions, with good HP, heavy armor, good combat skill, and orders such as the Hospitalers and Knights Templar as inspiration.

3E did make the cleric more of a primary spellcaster, but a) he remained a solid combatant, and b) multiclassing became an integral part of the game. So the "holy warrior" role is filled by a cleric with the right stats, domains, feats, and spells, or a multiclassed cleric/fighter.

The paladin I see as better suited to a PrC, as he's really too mechanically redundant to be a base class, but you could also differentiate him by flavor. I tend to see paladins as *rare* and exemplary champions of Good, not of a deity. They may have a patron, but if a paladin has to choose, doing Good takes precedence over his deity's interests. These won't normally conflict, but they might on rare occasions.

I'm distinguishing between warrior and champion here. A cleric is indeed a holy warrior, but I don't like clerics out-fighting paladins. Especially clerics of peace and knowledge gods.

[warmachine]

I fail to see the problem. The PCs are scouting with stealth and magic and, as a result of their skill and magic resource expenditure, are better prepared for a battle. It's mean to deny them the reward for the cleverness.

At the level PCs have Arcane Eye, their opponents will have good defenses of their own. Alarm, anyone? Hell, just invent an Arcane Eye detection device that an occasional enemy has. Arcane Eye is a known, standard tactic. Of course someone is going to research a counter-tactic and sell it. A Tactician, like me, will not be offended that enemies adapt their defenses. Indeed, they'd enjoy the opportunity to rethink their strategy.

[warmachine]

I'm distinguishing between warrior and champion here. A cleric is indeed a holy warrior, but I don't like clerics out-fighting paladins. Especially clerics of peace and knowledge gods.

However, this is thematically appropriate. I vote for it.

[TheThan]

Yeah, the only problem I see is with the favored soul. I don’t think he gets domain spells, which weakens the class quite a bit. But that’s an easy fix.

In fact, it fits really well with the cloistered cleric.