Another Look at Affinity Field + Bestow Power

[Lycanthromancer]

Most of us know about the (admittedly broken) affinity field + bestow power trick. For those of us that don't:

1.) Give your psicrystal the Hidden Talent feat (alternately: Wild Talent). This gives it a power point reserve and (incidentally) the [psionic] subtype.

2.) Manifest affinity field, sharing it with your psicrystal, and keep your psicrystal nearby so that the fields overlap.

3.) Manifest bestow power, which will fill up your power point reserve, as it affects your psicrystal, bounces off the affinity field back to you, then off of your affinity field back to your psicrystal, and so on.

That's pretty old hat, but I don't think anyone has stopped to think about the fact that so long as those affinity fields overlap, that manifestation of bestow power remains in effect, granting you infinite power points for its entire duration.

The only downside? A single point of damage (from any source) will kill you.

The solution? Have your psicrystal ready an action to move away from you, so its field deactivates.

Useful for situations such as that level 50 gestalt challenge.

Merry Christmas! Happy solstice and stuff!

[Blackfang108]

The only downside? A single point of damage (from any source) will kill you.

The solution? Have your psicrystal ready an action to move away from you, so its field deactivates.

why does this bit happen and work?

[Chrono22]

Yes, this was the broken combo that player used...

[Optimystik]

why does this bit happen and work?

A single point of damage will get bounced back and forth between you and your crystal ad infinitum due to the overlapping fields as well.

[Nero24200]

why does this bit happen and work?

Affinity field pretty much means if somthing happens to you, it effects others in the field. Dealing damage to someone in an affinity feild means you also take damage. Likewise, healing someone in an affinity feild also heals you.

This exploit works because it creates a loop - by directly effecting the psicrystal with the same power you gain it's benifits...and by gaining it's benifits the psicrystal also gain's it's benifits...and by the psicrystal gaining it's benifits, you gain it's benifits, and so on, and so forth.

The loop is broken because it allows you to recharge power points by using a power intended to give power points to another. The downside is that damage is also infinate in such a loop, so taking one point of damage within such a loop will instantly kill all inside.

[Douglas]

Useful for situations such as that level 50 gestalt challenge.

Speaking of that, while I think this trick probably actually would be allowed there, I just noticed that Simulacrum is one of the very few spells banned in that arena. Thus, the simulacrum-army-on-fast-time-demiplane trick you wrote up recently is officially not legal for that contest.

[Jack_Simth]

Most of us know about the (admittedly broken) affinity field + bestow power trick. For those of us that don't:
That's pretty old hat, but I don't think anyone has stopped to think about the fact that so long as those affinity fields overlap, that manifestation of bestow power remains in effect, granting you infinite power points for its entire duration.

The only downside? A single point of damage (from any source) will kill you.

The solution? Have your psicrystal ready an action to move away from you, so its field deactivates.

Useful for situations such as that level 50 gestalt challenge.

Merry Christmas! Happy solstice and stuff!

Doesn't seem like it'd be instant infinite power - All in the area are affected by powers as you are. If you and another psychic both have affinity fields up, and one affects you, it doesn't rebound again - the other is already affected as you are by that power. AKA, overlapping Affinity Fields don't loop, they overlap.

Now, that would still permit non-instantanous infinite power points (I have an Affinity field up; I manifest Bestow Power on myself, spending 3 pp, regaining two, and in the process, giving two to my neighbor. My neighbor also manifests Bestow Power on me, spending three power points, and giving me two - and he gets two back, due to the Affinity Field. I've spent three, he's spent three, we've both gained four. With Augmentation, you can more than pay off the Affinity Field) but not the massive boost that is an infinity of power points with one standard and one quickened action.

[Lycanthromancer]

Doesn't seem like it'd be instant infinite power - All in the area are affected by powers as you are. If you and another psychic both have affinity fields up, and one affects you, it doesn't rebound again - the other is already affected as you are by that power. AKA, overlapping Affinity Fields don't loop, they overlap.

Now, that would still permit non-instantanous infinite power points (I have an Affinity field up; I manifest Bestow Power on myself, spending 3 pp, regaining two, and in the process, giving two to my neighbor. My neighbor also manifests Bestow Power on me, spending three power points, and giving me two - and he gets two back, due to the Affinity Field. I've spent three, he's spent three, we've both gained four. With Augmentation, you can more than pay off the Affinity Field) but not the massive boost that is an infinity of power points with one standard and one quickened action.

RAW, you're both affected by affinity field, which means that anything you're affected by, it's affected by. As soon as it's affected, so are you. And so you affect it which affects you which affects it which affects you which...

And so on.

Houserule it if you want (which is a good idea), but it's one of those broken combos that pops up far more often in D&D than I'd like.

Thankfully, however, it rarely happens in psionics.

[NEO|Phyte]

The only downside? A single point of damage (from any source) will kill you.

Untrue, the psicrystal has hardness 8, meaning each iteration of the loop deals 8 less damage.

[Maryring]

However, now you should make an ad-hoc rule, because what'll happen to the overload of psionic power-points you get? You can't maintain infinite powerpoints in your head so...

Well, I know it's a houserule but I still think it'll be fun to watch someone try that trick. They'll be in for a... surprise.

[Lycanthromancer]

Untrue, the psicrystal has hardness 8, meaning each iteration of the loop deals 8 less damage.

Ah! I'd overlooked that! No infinite damage loops via psicrystal, then, barring something like psonic damage.

[Jack_Simth]

RAW, you're both affected by affinity field, which means that anything you're affected by, it's affected by. As soon as it's affected, so are you. And so you affect it which affects you which affects it which affects you which...

And so on.

Houserule it if you want (which is a good idea), but it's one of those broken combos that pops up far more often in D&D than I'd like.

Thankfully, however, it rarely happens in psionics.

I've manifested Affinity Field, as has my companion. We're close enough that the two overlap.

I get hit by a Crystal Shard, and I am affected by a Crystal Shard.

Through the Affinity Field, that Crystal Shard affect also affects my companion exactly as it does me. He takes a wound.

Through the Affinity Field, I'm affected as he is. I'm already affected by that power exactly as he is, so there's no further effect.

[Lycanthromancer]

I've manifested Affinity Field, as has my companion. We're close enough that the two overlap.

I get hit by a Crystal Shard, and I am affected by a Crystal Shard.

Through the Affinity Field, that Crystal Shard affect also affects my companion exactly as it does me. He takes a wound.

Through the Affinity Field, I'm affected as he is. I'm already affected by that power exactly as he is, so there's no further effect.

Um...No.

According to the rules under affinity field, any time you take damage, everything within the area makes a Fort save or takes the damage you do. If your psicrystal fails its save (or forgoes it), it takes damage, which triggers its affinity field, (because any time it takes damage, it broadcasts said damage), triggering your affinity field.

I'm not sure how this is confusing.

Note how there is no clause for being affected multiple times. Damage stacks, since it's instantaneous in duration. Anything NOT instantaneous simply affects you a whole bunch, and overlaps or stacks, depending on exactly how the effect reads.

[PhoenixRivers]

Also, damage loops aren't infinite.

I have 100 hp. My crystal has 50.
5 energy damage is dealt to me.

{table=header]Iteration | My HP | Psycrystal HP
1 | 95 | 50
1.5 | 95 | 45
2 | 90 | 45
2.5 | 90 | 40
3 | 85 | 40
3.5 | 85 | 35
4 | 80 | 35
4.5 | 80 | 30
5 | 75 | 30
5.5 | 75 | 25
6 | 70 | 25
6.5 | 70 | 20
7 | 65 | 20
7.5 | 65 | 15
8 | 60 | 15
8.5 | 60 | 10
9 | 55 | 10
9.5 | 55 | 5
10 | 50 | 5
10.5 | 50 | 0
11 | 45 | X[/table]
At this point, the psycrystal is destroyed, ending the affinity field, and breaking the loop.

[Lycanthromancer]

Also, damage loops aren't infinite.

I have 100 hp. My crystal has 50.
5 energy damage is dealt to me.

{table=header]Iteration | My HP | Psycrystal HP
1 | 95 | 50
1.5 | 95 | 45
2 | 90 | 45
2.5 | 90 | 40
3 | 85 | 40
3.5 | 85 | 35
4 | 80 | 35
4.5 | 80 | 30
5 | 75 | 30
5.5 | 75 | 25
6 | 70 | 25
6.5 | 70 | 20
7 | 65 | 20
7.5 | 65 | 15
8 | 60 | 15
8.5 | 60 | 10
9 | 55 | 10
9.5 | 55 | 5
10 | 50 | 5
10.5 | 50 | 0
11 | 45 | X[/table]
At this point, the psycrystal is destroyed, ending the affinity field, and breaking the loop.

Don't forget the psicrystal's hardness, which usually applies (except for sonic damage, of course).

[Jack_Simth]

Um...No.

According to the rules under affinity field, any time you take damage, everything within the area makes a Fort save or takes the damage you do. If your psicrystal fails its save (or forgoes it), it takes damage, which triggers its affinity field, (because any time it takes damage, it broadcasts said damage), triggering your affinity field.

I'm not sure how this is confusing.

Note how there is no clause for being affected multiple times. Damage stacks, since it's instantaneous in duration. Anything NOT instantaneous simply affects you a whole bunch, and overlaps or stacks, depending on exactly how the effect reads.

Exact text of the relevant portion:
"While the duration lasts, affected creatures take all damage (including ability damage) as you do and heal all wounds as you do." (emphasis added). When you've got two in play, you don't take infinite damage. You're both damaged. Because when it tries to apply it a second time, the original already took the same damage as the other guy at the same time.

[Lycanthromancer]

Exact text of the relevant portion:
"While the duration lasts, affected creatures take all damage (including ability damage) as you do and heal all wounds as you do." (emphasis added). When you've got two in play, you don't take infinite damage. You're both damaged. Because when it tries to apply it a second time, the original already took the same damage as the other guy at the same time.

Yes. They take damage as you do. You also take damage as they do. And they in turn take damage again as you just did. And so on.

Source doesn't matter, so long as damage is inflicted. Including from 9th level powers like affinity field.

The authors of that particular power never thought about what their wording would do if two or more of these things overlapped.

[PhoenixRivers]

Exact text of the relevant portion:
"While the duration lasts, affected creatures take all damage (including ability damage) as you do and heal all wounds as you do." (emphasis added). When you've got two in play, you don't take infinite damage. You're both damaged. Because when it tries to apply it a second time, the original already took the same damage as the other guy at the same time.

The problem is that damage is discreet. All damage is different. It's not tied to an ability, either, that could limit it. (Example: When an effect damages you, all affected creatures suffer the same damage from that effect. -The above links it to an effect. Regardless of the damage to you, it's the effect that's checked.)

So, since damage is always discreet, it is infinite, or until something's HP run out.

[Jack_Simth]

Yes. They take damage as you do. You also take damage as they do. And they in turn take damage again as you just did. And so on.

Source doesn't matter, so long as damage is inflicted. Including from 9th level powers like affinity field.

The authors of that particular power never thought about what their wording would do if two or more of these things overlapped.

When it tries to come back, you already took it. So there's no second loop.

The problem is that damage is discreet. All damage is different. It's not tied to an ability, either, that could limit it. (Example: When an effect damages you, all affected creatures suffer the same damage from that effect. -The above links it to an effect. Regardless of the damage to you, it's the effect that's checked.)

So, since damage is always discreet, it is infinite, or until something's HP run out.

I'm curious: Where do you get a note that damage is always discreet?

[Lycanthromancer]

When it tries to come back, you already took it. So there's no second loop.

Where, in the text of affinity field, are you getting this? I mean, affinity field triggers A.) any time you take damage, B.) any time you're healed, and C.) when you're affected by effects of 3rd level and below. It says nothing about excluding such effects coming from other affinity fields.

Is the damage coming from someone else's affinity field damaging you? Then your affinity field activates and sends the damage back.

[Jack_Simth]

Where, in the text of affinity field, are you getting this? I mean, affinity field triggers A.) any time you take damage, B.) any time you're healed, and C.) when you're affected by effects of 3rd level and below. It says nothing about excluding such effects coming from other affinity fields.

Is the damage coming from someone else's affinity field damaging you? Then your affinity field activates and sends the damage back.

No, it says they take damage "as you do" and are affected by stuff same as you.

It's not the Affinity Field doing the damage - it's the original source of the damage doing the damage. Where are you getting the loop from in the power description of Affinity Field?

[PhoenixRivers]

I'm curious: Where do you get a note that damage is always discreet?

Simple. Damage is an instantaneous effect, which happens once, and is done.

Unlike Penalties, such as Ray of Enfeeblement, damage always stacks.

Someone gets hit with a fireball, and then another, they take damage both times. It's not handled like bonuses or penalties, where multiple instances from the same source don't stack.

Damage always stacks. Two rays from the same scorching ray? Two instances of damage, that are totally seperate.

Two missiles from a Magic Missile? The same.

All damage applies seperately. If you need more evidence? Take energy resistance. Say you have energy resistance 10 to fire.

You take 2 scorching ray hits. One deals 12 damage, and another deals 11. If damage wasn't discrete, you'd take a total of 23 (if they stacked) or 12 (if they didn't). This would be reduced by energy resistance to 13 or 3. As is, each damage is handled seperately. So the 12 damage is reduced to 2. The 13 damage is reduced to 3. The total damage you take is 5, because each instance of damage is discrete (seperate) from the other instances.

[PhoenixRivers]

No, it says they take damage "as you do" and are affected by stuff same as you.

It's not the Affinity Field doing the damage - it's the original source of the damage doing the damage. Where are you getting the loop from in the power description of Affinity Field?

Actually, it doesn't label the source of the damage as being identical. More than likely, it's the affinity field passing it along. Reasoning: If the original affect dealt the damage, it opens up abusive combos.

For example: I hit someone with an Affinity Field up with a Fell drain Magic Missile. Everyone in range takes a negative level? What about an Energy Stun? Does everyone need to make a will save vs stun? If the damage comes from the original effect, that's yes. However, the affinity field states that only damage is passed along. In this instance, the source creating this effect is the affinity field, so it's reasonable to assume it's the source of the damage.