[3.5] Can't find class for conman concept

[Ecalsneerg]

I want to play a changeling conman/conwoman who relies on skills and Charisma most of the time. Fair enough. I'd also like some minor magical abilities. Hmmm. So far I've pondered:

1. Rogue. Well, I'd be taking the changeling racial level at level 1. (10+Int) x 4 skill points... mmm... However, Charisma gives you little beyond skill bonuses for rogues, and I'd like to actually do something with the Cha.

2. Factotum. Maybe with Chameleon. It's nice, it has skills, it has spells, but... again, no real reason to take Charisma over Intelligence. I'm all for concept-based builds, but if I'm putting my point buy into Charisma, I want BANG for all that buck.

3. Bard. Well, this seemed ideal. Plenty of skills, some really nice spells (all conmen need Glibness), Ok-ish weapon proficiencies... but I don't want bardic music (go Team Awkward!)

Ideas? Help me Obi-Wan ITP, you're my only hope.

[Ryuuk]

Beguiler (PHBII) might work. They're Int casters, focusing on illusion and enchantment spells, but still have all the social skills and can get some use out of bluff to boost their save DC.

[lsfreak]

See http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732 for ways of getting Charisma to things.

I'd vote for Beguiler as well.

Binder might be an interesting option, the problem being that you'd have room for 'social' but no room for anything else skill-wise. Early-entry anima mage (sorc1/binder2 or sorc2/binder1 potentially qualifies if I'm not missing anything) would be interesting, conning not only everyone in the world but also lost souls that exist by some cosmic mistake.

You could try refluffing bardic music into something else. Poetry is one you can do by RAW and would seem to fit better than music, but rhetoric/speeches, dancing or rhythmic movements, flashy swordplay, or other things could be potential options.

[Eldariel]

Perform: Oratory Bardic Music combined with maybe some levels of Marshal and such could work just fine. Perform: Oratory allows you to refluff it as just weaving your words in such a way that they have magical effect; subtle spellcasting of sorts. Of course, you have no use for Inspire Courage and the like, but Fascinate, Suggestion and the likes seem PERFECT for you, so just spend the uses on THOSE.

[Zaq]

Incarnates are fantastic at boosting skill checks, and the social skills are no exception. They don't have any in-class uses for Charisma, but to be honest, they don't need it. (Alternatively, you could go into Incandescent Champion after you get the levels of binds that you're happy with... IC is usually a pretty bad prestige class, but you don't lose your Incarnate abilities, and you get a use for Charisma.)

Warlocks use Charisma and get an invocation that gives them +6 to (I believe) Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate.

[Mongoose87]

You're going to find that, unless it's your spellcasting attribute, or you're a Paladin, Charisma simply isn't a primary requisite.

[Ecalsneerg]

Beguiler does fall into the "Int, not Cha" issue, however, moreso than Factotum and Rogue as you need it for spell DCs.

I did, however, see the Fey Bard in UA. It swaps out the 'inspire' line of bardsong and replaces it with some druid class features.

Do you reckon it would be unbalanced to let them be transparent with the Cityscape web enhancement so that nature sense becomes Urban Sense, resist nature's lure becomes Strong Stomach, wild empathy is Voice of the City. It's obviously DM-dependent, but if it's overly questionable, no point in bugging him.

I still have countersong, but it could be refluffed as "Hey, listen to me, not him!" And animal companions are always fun. Now I have a speedy getaway!

[streakster]

Warlock is exactly what you want, friend. They have a host of minor, at will magical abilites - such as a blast that charms people, the ability to steal faces, the "Devil's Whisper", invisibility, Flee the Scene, illusions, etc. There's tons of stuff that would benefit a conman in there. Plus, they're Charisma based.

[sofawall]

They even have an invocation that gives +6 to bluff, disguise and diplomacy.

[kentma57]

Well if you want charisma based character you need to get at least one level of Courtier from the Rokugan Campaign Setting.

[DragoonWraith]

My Sorcerer conman has been doing an excellent job at doing just that. The first battle he got in (actually, my first D&D encounter ever), went like this:

I go into the bar/brothel where we're supposed to be clandestinely buying some thieves' tools. I order the 'special' which is apparently the code word for that. Just then, there's a scream of "Murderer!" from the back - at which the female Orcish warrior (at the time we thought she was a paladin, but it now seems likely that she was actually the murderer) immediately runs to go check out. I stand also, and tell her I've got some magic and will assist her.

As soon as we get to the back room, there's a back door - just outside of which lay my rogue and fighter friends, as I'm aware through Message. The Orc's arguing with the back door guard, and since he doesn't get out of the way fast enough, she bullrushes him - missing the Grease I put down in front of her. She slips, collides with the guard, and both go out the door in a heap - where my friends promptly end them.

Standing in the doorway between the main and back rooms, I proceed to convince one of the front door guards (but not both) to come help; he shows up just in time to take a Ray of Enfeeblement in the back and be cut down by the rogue and fighter, having just finished with the first two, and Drow archer's who's joined things.

I then draw the last guard into the main room, while convincing him to allow me to retrieve my own and another customer's weapons from the locker where they'd been confiscated. The two having been separated, the druid and the Drow at the front door take down the other customer and the rogue and fighter kill the last guard. We tie everybody else up, some of the others search upstairs (and kill a naked wizard), then we go downstairs where we find the mistress of the establishment. A Charm Spell later, and I have her tell her Half-Ogre brute to stop crushing the Halfling and then let us put him in chains. I lead her out of the room while my friends Coup de Grace the Ogre. I then get all the information I can out of her, before tying her up too, and killing her (though not nearly as efficiently). We then burn the place down, and I spend the next day wandering the streets, conning some hundred and change gp while keeping an ear out for any commotion about the brothel.

[Indon]

You might be able to find a couple Bard alternate class features that lets you tweak things to your liking.

Try www.d20srd.org.

[Ecalsneerg]

Warlock is exactly what you want, friend. They have a host of minor, at will magical abilites - such as a blast that charms people, the ability to steal faces, the "Devil's Whisper", invisibility, Flee the Scene, illusions, etc. There's tons of stuff that would benefit a conman in there. Plus, they're Charisma based.

I'm definitely going to ponder that, especially given it'd be an Eberron character. Taking 10 on UMD is pretty useful in a magic-heavy setting like that.

One issue is 2 + Int skill points. Yeouch. How viable would a Rogue/Warlock be? Or maybe a Rogue 1/Sorcerer 5/Daggerspell Mage?

[streakster]

I'm definitely going to ponder that, especially given it'd be an Eberron character. Taking 10 on UMD is pretty useful in a magic-heavy setting like that.

One issue is 2 + Int skill points. Yeouch. How viable would a Rogue/Warlock be?

I've never done one myself, but I know people build roguelocks that combine sneak attack and eldritch blast, so it is doable. The stealth invocations synergize well, too.

BTW, Monstrous Spider form or Hellcat form are not only great ways to deal with melee, if you're ever forced into it, but are the basis of the monster hunter con - you terrorize a town as a huge hell-lion, then you show up in human form announcing yourself as a monster hunter and get paid to deal with the "monster". So much fun, especially if you can rope party members into helping.

[rooster]

There's a class in the PHB called the Rogue. I'd probably go with that.

But it's easy to tweak things to fit the character you want:

Switch the beguiler or telepath casting stat to charisma. Done.

Or

Trade the bard's music for wizard-rate feat progression, drawn from pool of skill-based feats. Done.
(Or just use oratory. Fixating and motivating people with your words is exactly what I'd think you'd want to do.)

Or

Trade the rogue's sneak attack for a bluff-based version of the bard's fascinate/suggestion.

Or

Use spellthief or marshal. I think they have appropriate skill lists. They certainly have charisma synergy.

Or

Write up a charismatic swashbuckler based on the rogue class:
Pull out all the trap abilities and UMD. Drop skills to 4+Int, slow sneak attack to 6d6 at level 20, bump HD up to d8, raise Will and BA to full progressions, add some swift- and immediate-action sleight-of-hand, disarm, fear, parry and feinting abilities and advance them with levels. You should be left with a decent framework for a fitting melee class.

...Rogue/Warlock's okay, but it'll be worse at the "conman" thing (assuming more than a 1-level Warlock dip) and will have less use for charisma than straight rogue.

Daggerspell Mage is nice skill-wise, but it's really squishy for a knife fighter.

Unseen Seer dodges the DM's "stand in the front line with your low ac, weak fortitude and d4 hd" dilemma. Tougher skill requirements, but they're worth it.

[Skaven]

Rogue: gets skill mastery, never roll a 1 on that important skill check again.

Bard: You can get perform: oratory and say your bardic music isnt music, you're wheedling your allies into performing better by conning them into 'taking bigger risks' or whatever.

[Draxar]

I've currently made a similar version of this concept, using Bard, plus a single level of Rogue.

Bard is good, as it gets you the spells, the skills, and Bardic music which can help a con, applied properly – take it as oratory, then when you hit level 9, take 'subsonics', which means that you can do it without it being noticeable that you have done so.

Take the skill trick 'conceal casting' from Complete Scoundrel – it lets you magic without being noticed as doing so, and indeed, being AoO'd. If you're lucky, you might be able to persuade your GM to say that mental influencing supernatural effects that there's no noticeable cues for may be taken to be 'just the person deciding to do that' – tell a sob story, cast wave of grief, then everyone bursts into tears and thinks its because of the story.

The Changeling Rogue substituion level from Races of Eberron is also worth dipping into – at first level, you get an extra two skil points (meaning with an Int of 14, a whopping 48 skill points at first level), gather information in 1/6th of the time, assess a social situation in a round, and take 10 on Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather information, intimidate, and Sense Motive. You lose trapfinding, but you're a talker, not a disarmer.

[sofawall]

Rogue: gets skill mastery, never roll a 1 on that important skill check again.

Bard: You can get perform: oratory and say your bardic music isnt music, you're wheedling your allies into performing better by conning them into 'taking bigger risks' or whatever.

Well, with enough skill ranks and whatnot, who cares about rolling a 1?

[Draz74]

I still vote Factotum. With a Marshal dip to make CHA more crucial.

[Set]

I'd go with Bard and just ignore the music aspect, sticking to Oratory to persuade others to do your bidding.

I loathe music-Bards, and either go for noblemen, who inspire 'the troops' with a combination of leaderly exortation and applied tactics from their studies at the war college, or religious charismatics who raise the morale of their allies by quoting from their prayerbook giving blood-stirring sermons and dispensing timely homilies.

None of them call themselves Bards (or Minstrels or Troubadours or Skalds or Dirges), but either Nobleman or Priest.

The focus on Bards with sonic spells and music-related abilities is just annoying, and I avoid it.

[Eloel]

I've also searched, long, for a Cha-based class. Couldn't find it.
Though my search was more of a cha-based melee, sort of like how Swordsage is Wis & Warblade is Int. I expected Crusader to be Cha, and failed.

[/offtopic]

[Skaven]

Well, with enough skill ranks and whatnot, who cares about rolling a 1?

I guess it depends on the DM.

Many I have played with counts 1's as auto failures no matter what.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Well, with enough skill ranks and whatnot, who cares about rolling a 1?

If all you care about is reliability, i.e. getting a certain mark with 100% accuracy, Skill Mastery is essentially a +9 bonus. Skill ranks are nice, but skill ranks + skill mastery is nicer.

[9mm]

Bard --> glibness. Go to town.

[GolemsVoice]

Also, check out Complete Scoundrel. It contains several tools, Prestige Classes and Feats/Skill Tricks that center around appearing as someone else, disguising yourself, etc...
The PrC Mountebank comes to mind, which let's you construct Alter Egos of your Alter Ego.

[DragoonWraith]

I guess it depends on the DM.

Many I have played with counts 1's as auto failures no matter what.

With skill checks, that's a really bad idea. And auto-success on nat-20's is even worse.

[TheThan]

a bard might work

[Samb]

Ummm what's wrong with a changling rogue or factotum? CHR is nothing compared to detect thoughts. Why not get a half fey template so you can charm at will as well? Detect thoughs and charm should give you at least +4 circumstance bonus on social checks, since you are a changling you might get another +2 racial bonus on them as well.

skill ranks >> CHR modifier

You don't need a high CHR to be a conman, its a nice bonus at early levels but when push comes to shove, skill makes more of a difference.

That being said, beguiler has some nice spells like suggestion, telepath can use a simple attraction, or even dominate, wizards can mindrape...... I'd say flavor wise rogue just fits the best, you get enough skill for CHR to not be an issue.

[Myrmex]

Beguiler does fall into the "Int, not Cha" issue, however, moreso than Factotum and Rogue as you need it for spell DCs.

I did, however, see the Fey Bard in UA. It swaps out the 'inspire' line of bardsong and replaces it with some druid class features.

Do you reckon it would be unbalanced to let them be transparent with the Cityscape web enhancement so that nature sense becomes Urban Sense, resist nature's lure becomes Strong Stomach, wild empathy is Voice of the City. It's obviously DM-dependent, but if it's overly questionable, no point in bugging him.

I still have countersong, but it could be refluffed as "Hey, listen to me, not him!" And animal companions are always fun. Now I have a speedy getaway!

Mechanically, a 16 int and a 14 charisma is better for social interactions than the other way around, thanks to how skill points & synergies work.

[Paul H]

Hi

Played a Beguiler/Warlock/Eldritch Theurge before, that's quite powerful, or you could just take Beguiler,Warlock (for skill boost eldritches) and take one level of Mindbender for the Telepathy.

Recommend, though, Beguiler xxx/Warlock 1.

Beguiler's a skill monkey with all the right skills for synergy bonuses, (except Know Nobility), and Beguiling Influence Eldritch for the extra +6 Bluff/Diplomacy/Intimidate. And it's a full UMD mix!

Beguiler 2/Warlock 1 can have 15 + Cha mod Diplomacy.
Beguiler 6 has 39 +Cha mod to Bluff c/w Glibness spell!

Cheers
Paul H