A Hannibal Lecture for the hero

[Paseo H]

Greetings, all. I am introducing a villain character soon, and the first thing she will do, besides lay on a bunch of symbolic bullcrap (such as Pieta Plagarism and likening the hero's rival to Lucifer), is deliver a cruel Hannibal Lecture to the hero. What I currently have is as follows:

Now, (redacted), here is what you are going to do. Run off, with your tail between your legs like the filthy beast you are...look (redacted)'s little sister in the eye, and tell her that you murdered her big brother...like a pirate. When you close your eyes and think of your sister, you must surely also see the face of the beast pirate who stole her life from you. Now know that when (redacted) closes her eyes to think of her dead brother, she will see your filthy pirate face as well. You refused to abide his ambitions, so you murdered him, without even a second thought to robbing the poor girl of her brother...sound familiar, filthy beast? Go and face his sister, and let her see you for the pirate you have become...it is the least you can do!

Or the laconic version: You are just like the pirates who murdered your family when you were younger.

Of course, I want to make it even more cruel and cutting. The hero is a bit genre savvy and generally too stubborn to give into this sort of thing, so I have to lay it on even thicker. Any ideas?

[Doc Roc]

Um, is this D&D 3.5?

[Haven]

Um, is this D&D 3.5?

It's not a mechanical question...

Anyway, the only suggestion that comes to mind is to have him phrase it less like an order and more like a natural, obvious conclusion, because then it's not as easy for the hero to just blow off as the villain ranting.

Something more like "Wow! This is amazing--you've become a pirate! You really should go home and tell that little girl what you've done--she'd LOVE it, don't you think?"

[streakster]

It kinda is important to know, though. 'Cause Hannibal lectures just don't really cut it in a game that clearly marks you as good, and those guys as bad, and calls killing them and taking their stuff heroism. It really leads to players being certain they're right - so Shut Up Hannibal is really common.

Villain: We're just alike, can't you see that -
Paladin: Scanning...Ding! Nope, you still show up evil. Okay, back to smiting!
V:...I hate that spell.

There are other problems in DnD too.

Villain: You stole her brother -
PC: Borrowed, really.
V: What?
PC: Yeah, I'll just rez him. No prob.
V: But- you killed -
PC: Yeah, my bad! Woops! That'll cost me some diamond dust, eh? Heh heh.
V: ...hate this game...


In a more morally complex game, though - Exalted, Nobilis, etc, - it might work better.

Anyway, as to suggestions - make sure the player can't just rez the guy (He fell overboard, or something), don't frame it as an order, delay the mention of pirate until later so it comes as more of a shock, and make sure the player cares about the little girl - dissonance might make him able to say "Whatever" to her pain, even though it sounds as though it mimics his own.

Best I can do with the info I got. Hope something helps.

[PinkysBrain]

The villain merely repeating what the hero himself has already told himself will lack some dramatic punch (and the way you tell it it could hardly have escaped him). I'd personally reply sarcastically "oh wow, I had not yet considered the similarity between the two situations but now that you point it out to me I feel just awful".

A simple mocking for his fall from grace seems more appropriate IMO.

[Jayngfet]

If the system backs up what he did and defines it as good point this out. Tell him the GODS endorse you smashing into peoples houses and killing and stealing, show him a few of the orphans he's made, show him that deep down he and everything he stands for is flawed. Show him that even rounding errors(99.99% of demons being evil rounded to 100%, 60% of goblins to 100%, and so on) kill hundreds of good people a day.

Show him that angels have fallen to darkness, demons risen to paladinhood(both supported in crunch). Show them that inevitables, the ultimate upholders of universal law, can be screwed up to the point of nearly breaking the great wheel(again supported by crunch).

Crack open exalted deeds, Pelor cares more about killing his enemies than giving them fair chance to repent(going so far as to wipe out their whole bloodline with familicide tactics).

Show that the "good" god of gnomes provoked the "evil" kobold god into a race war.

Show that(exalted deeds page one), even the darkest evils can feel love.






Show this, it's all RAW true and it all will screw your players up. Give him the means to verify all this, give him the means to see it IS true. If you need to crack open the rulebooks for proof.

Show that in the end there is NOTHING separating his acts from a common thief or a demon lord. That good and evil are little more than meaningless tags to any complex action.

[Crafty Cultist]

If you have the villain point out that the "heroes" are the same as what they fight, they will probably respond that they are striking at evil or for the benifit of the people, so prepare a few responses to that.

Examples
"we may kill but we do so for the sake of others"
"wow an excuse. no murderer has ever used one of those before"

"you're just a villain, no one will mourn your loss"
"you keep telling yourself whatever lies help you get to sleep at night"

Make it clear that they consider the heroes as weaklings who use their "good intentions" to escape from guilt

[Doc Roc]

More likely, they will just cast detect evil, look at each other, then murder the villain. Murder him to death, as a certain caped villain would say.
Before you call that metagaming, remember that if you use the default cosmology, paragons of good, law, chaos, and evil exist, and the presence of these polar absolutes colors the world in a way that an ungenerous person might call absolutely.

[streakster]

More likely, they will just cast detect evil, look at each other, then murder the villain. Murder him to death.

Then its high fives and calling dibs on what he's wearing.


Which is, incidentally, a fun way to make an intimidate check.

"Ooh, silver! I call dibs on this guy's armor!"

[Doc Roc]

Then its high fives and calling dibs on what he's wearing.


Which is, incidentally, a fun way to make an intimidate check.

"Ooh, silver! I call dibs on this guy's armor!"

Oh man, I love silver armor......

Oh G'd.... I'm a moral absolutist. I'm going to go cry now.

[Jade_Tarem]

Playing Devil's advocate:

Hannibal Lectures have to be custom-tailored to the situation. All we really know about this one is that pirates are involved.

For instance, it doesn't help if a quick examination of the villain's goals would convince any sane person that he needs to die.

Villain: "Did you really think you could just bash in the door, murder whoever you want, and then ride off into the sunset? There are always consequences."

Hero: "You might have a point if you weren't currently trying to destroy, y'know, everything."

[Paseo H]

Thank you for the advice so far.

It is a subtle but important difference, but what the villain is saying is not so much "You're not much different from a villain," but more "You're not much different from the people who murdered your family in front of you when you were a child." In fact, the hero's older sister protected him and died for it, and the villain knows this so she is trying to drive this point home.

She isn't trying so much to win a philosophical debate (well, not directly), but rather trying to make him have a Heroic BSOD. Think like Mao from Code Geass, how his hannibal lectures work.

But yes, making it sound more natural might be the thing.

As far as her being a villain and thus not being credible simply because of that goes, it probably doesn't help that she's a Chaotic Evil Nietszche Wannabe. Still, I am hoping that having her bring up the hero's past trauma might do good.

[UglyPanda]

I've got a request. Could you give a description of the player? Even without Detect Evil and such, there are quite a few players who would just say "I'm just going to kill you now and I'll think about the moral consequences later, ok?".

I'm personally the kind of player who would signal all the other characters for an ambush while pretending to care. How are you sure the villain is even going to have a chance to say anything before they all start attacking?

Villain: Look at you, you disgusting thing, you're...
PCs: Shut up and die already, Dr. No!

[Paseo H]

The hero is a Neutral Good/Chaotic Goodish guy who is more or less a Badass Normal, and frankly is a bit on the genre savvy side, as well as being very resistant to fear in general, so chances are there will be a Shut Up Hannibal coming regardless of what we can come up with.

Some of the hero's friends will show up, only to get pwned.

This isn't D&D by the way.

As for how to ensure she gets the hannibal lecture off, yes that is a concern as well. I will have to talk to the player about that.

I should also note that there's pretty much zero chance of the heroes being able to defeat her right now. What will happen instead is that another villain will show up, and be ordered to kill the hero, thus giving him an even battle to do.

[UglyPanda]

I said player, not character. Nobody is going to play exactly as their character seems to act.

Someone who has two loving parents might not understand what's so bad about being an orphan, or might react with abject terror to such a thing. Someone in the army reserve doesn't see anything wrong with killing for their country. Someone who plays hours and hours of Grand Theft Auto might have no trouble killing NPCs. Just because you want an emotional response, it doesn't mean you're going to get one that's not half-assed and phony, especially if you tell the player ahead of time that he is forced to sit down and listen.

[Paseo H]

I am talking about the character.

[UglyPanda]

I'm aware you're talking about the character. I asked about the player, the person who wrote the sheet and makes the actions. With role-playing games, you have to know your audience.

If you don't want to say anything due to privacy or whatever, that's fine.

[Paseo H]

Wow, I don't know how I got that all backwards. I thought you were talking about wanting to know the character. My bad.

Well, I don't know if I know the player well enough to make the judgements you are asking. But yes he does play violent video games a lot, however he does have trouble actually killing enemies who need killing. In fact, he once temporarily gained a Poisonous Friend precisely because someone decided that his willingness to not shoot the bad guy would one day get him killed.

Also, saying that I will be "forcing" the player to shut up and listen is a bit far.

[Paseo H]

I'm not calling it the final draft of course, but I modified the lecture to seem more "natural." Not sure how well I did, but here goes.

We come face to face at last, (redacted)...nice to meet you! I did not know you if you would have it in you to mortally wound (redacted), even though he has shown his true self for all to see...and to think, you did it without considering how (redacted) would feel about her big brother being slain! Haha...it brings to mind something my master recently told me...about a young boy whose family was slain in front of him, and how his older sister died protecting him. Oh right...that boy was you! Does (redacted) know that you are no better than a pirate now? It would be interesting to see you go and tell her how you murdered her brother because you could not accept his ambitions...

Come to think of it, I think I might be able to effectively cut it up into parts rather than require it to be in one or two chunks to work. That is different than what I had in mind, but this conversation has helped me come to that conclusion.

[Green Bean]

Okay, two things you should keep in mind before you even start to write any speeches.

First, give the character a reason to listen. For the original Hannibal Lecture, Starling has to pay attention because she needs Hannibal's help to solve the case. If Hannibal was some random dude who approached her on the street, chances are she'd just walk away or ignore it. Why should the player listen to some stranger trying to psychoanalyze him?

Second, do not make it part of a combat situation. When people are in a life or death situation, they become surprisingly good at tuning out irrelevant distractions, which includes pithy speeches. A good Hannibal Lecture is subtle and intimate, qualities that lose their effect when the target's trying to avoid getting stabbed. Even if it isn't a friendly meeting, at least make it a situation where neither side will want to resort to violence.

[Paseo H]

Ah...good advice.

Well, there is a reason he would want to be there instead of just leaving: she is carrying the villain ala Pieta Plagarism and thus his status is unconfirmed, and he might not want her to just take the corpse with her.

As for it not being a combat situation, that's a little more iffy...

[Green Bean]

Have you come up with a reason why the character won't just try to bisect the villain? 'Cause that part's kind of important.

[chiasaur11]

Have you come up with a reason why the character won't just try to bisect the villain? 'Cause that part's kind of important.

Got to agree. Sure, he might have a point regarding you, but if he doesn't die know, well, then that's a very bad thing. Introspection tends to be able to wait until after stabby stabby.

[Paseo H]

Oh, you meant physically.

Right, uh...she's rather broken. If he does do that, he will find himself unable to. At best, he can use his Superpowered Evil Side to fight her a bit but that would only delay the inevitable.

[Green Bean]

Okay, so the guy won't win, but what do you have to stop him from attacking? The moment he starts fighting, it becomes much, much easier to ignore whatever she says.

[Thurbane]

Is a Hannibal Lecture where someone extols the virtues of elephants in warfare?

[Paseo H]

There is nothing planned yet in the scenario that would guarantee that he would be hindered from attacking, but I am 90 percent certain that he would not, simply because he is generally not the type to Leeroy his way through battles.

Do you have any suggestions on things that would further help guarantee that he would be deterred from just attacking?

[Green Bean]

Well, an attack may be more likely than you think, seeing as the speech is basically a giant attempt to provoke him. Especially if she's visibly in league with the guy he was perfectly willing to kill. Are you sure if this is a situation that calls for a Hannibal Lecture? Perhaps a quick but vicious one-liner might have the same effect.

A lot depends on the tone. If she's angry and grieving over the lesser baddie's death, you'd do well to draw parallels between her reaction and the player's in the past. And even if she isn't particularly sad, faking it's a possibility. If she's sarcastic and biting, draw those same parallels to the character in the present. Instead of shaming the character, have her happily point out how similar they are. I'd recommend against the Lecter-esque emotionless deconstruction, though. It really only worked because he was already established as a psychological genius.

Also, you'll need to figure out why she wants to crush his spirit instead of, well, literally crushing him.

[Paseo H]

Hmm...you're right. Perhaps her approval will fill him with shame.

But yeah...she wants to spare him in the hopes that he will someday be useful to her, just as the villain is. I say is, because in truth he isn't dead at all, she used nanotech to instantly heal his injuries...but the hero doesn't know that.

In fact, she refers to the villain as a Morning Star. Those of you versed with biblical symbolism will get that. She probably hopes the hero will someday be a Morning Star as well.

As for why a hannibal lecture is in order, it is a sort of character defining moment, to demonstrate how utterly vicious and cruel she can be.

[UglyPanda]

Morning Star

[sarcasm]Too subtle![/sarcasm]

Couldn't resist.

If you wanted to show cruelty, you show the BBEG torturing someone or relaxing in a bloody basement. I agree about the tone. If you can't make yourself seem threatening, the speech is just going to be flamboyant.