Forcing Someone to Fight You [3.5]

[subject42]

I've been thinking a bit about the "tanky" role in D&D. Due to the issue of damage scaling and such, it seems like being a great big meat shield stops working after low levels, when tumble checks, flight, hit points, and other game mechanics reach the point that it's better for an enemy to just run right past you, eat your attack of opportunity, and smash up the wizard than it is to try to take care of you first. I'm looking for any suggestions on ways to mitigate those issues.

From what I've seen, the main method of keeping opponents off of the squishy folk is using combat reflexes with AoOs to make moving through your threatened area an unfavorable proposition. Unfortunately, tumble negates that once skill checks reach a certain point. Fortunately, the Thicket of Blades Stance negates that mechanic. Unfortunately, it requires a feat in a fairly feat-intensive build. Fortunately, it comes with a free Frogurt. Unfortunately, the frogurt contains potassium benzoate.

I've also seen the "goad" feat that gives you the ability to make an opposed check. If the enemy fails, it can only enter melee with you. Unfortunately, this doesn't do much good on mindless opponents or opponents that don't melee.

Another method is terrain control, also known as "shove the wizard in a corner and stand in front of him". This can work pretty well, but falls on its face when the enemy gets reach or starts to move three-dimensionally.

Are there any awesome methods that I'm missing, or is the idea of protecting other party members in the midst of a fight a joke in 3.5?

All books and classes are welcome.

[Thurbane]

If you get an item or SLA of Suggestion, you could suggest to people they should be attacking you.

[Innis Cabal]

The Knight class was made with you in mind. Look it up.

[Draz74]

Well, there's always the option of "being able to deal so much damage that targeting you instead of the casters isn't necessarily a stupid idea." A la the Ubercharger build, or Homer the Flaming Bowling Ball.

[Kaiyanwang]

Unfortunately, the frogurt contains potassium benzoate.

Uh, and that's very bad!

[PhoenixRivers]

Well, there's always the option of "being able to deal so much damage that targeting you instead of the casters isn't necessarily a stupid idea." A la the Ubercharger build, or Homer the Flaming Bowling Ball.

This. If you can 1 shot anything you can hit, you're in charge range, you fly, and you negate magical miss chances, it's not necessarily in an enemy's interest to focus on the caster.

As for mindless foes? They're mindless. That means they're not so hard to outsmart. Get between the squishy and them. That's usually enough.

[Doc Roc]

Yeah, it's simple, and I agree with PR re: best course of action.
Be a threat, Use a lockdown build, or find some homebrew.
Knight is not a well-designed class. Crusader would be a wildly superior choice.

[Tackyhillbillu]

Yeah, it's simple, and I agree with PR re: best course of action.
Be a threat, Use a lockdown build, or find some homebrew.
Knight is not a well-designed class. Crusader would be a wildly superior choice.

Crusader, with High Dex, a Reach Weapon, Combat Reflexes, Stand Still, and Thicket of Blades.

Only way to get past that build is to tumble around it. I don't know how to stop people from tumbling past you, but there probably is a way.

[BooNL]

Dwarven Defender, no one gets around you!

[Eldariel]

Only way to get past that build is to tumble around it. I don't know how to stop people from tumbling past you, but there probably is a way.

Yeah, Thicket of Blades.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Dwarven Defender, no one gets around you!

Unless they can walk.

[BooNL]

Unless they can walk.

Non-sense, why would anyone walk around the heavily armoured brick standing right in their path? That's where craziness lies, I tell you!

[herrhauptmann]

Dwarven defender is good if you can control the place of the fight. Especially if it's in a dungeon or tomb, or something which usually is fairly enclosed.

Flight doesn't mean much when the ceiling is only 10ft high. And it's difficult to 'go around him' when he's planted himself in the doorway or in a 5ft corridor.

However, all of that can apply to any tank build, not just the dwarven defender. And seriously, how many random encounters and mooks have the ability to overcome ALL what I've just mentioned, especially in published adventures?
Minibosses and final bosses? most likely.

[PhoenixRivers]

Dwarven defender is good if you can control the place of the fight. Especially if it's in a dungeon or tomb, or something which usually is fairly enclosed.

Flight doesn't mean much when the ceiling is only 10ft high. And it's difficult to 'go around him' when he's planted himself in the doorway or in a 5ft corridor.

However, all of that can apply to any tank build, not just the dwarven defender. And seriously, how many random encounters and mooks have the ability to overcome ALL what I've just mentioned, especially in published adventures?
Minibosses and final bosses? most likely.

Earth Elementals? Incorporeal Creatures? Invisible foes? Anything with a burrow speed? Anything with ranged attacks and the ability to aim?

Realizing that you can't always choose where you fight?

[BooNL]

Dwarven defender is good if you can control the place of the fight. Especially if it's in a dungeon or tomb, or something which usually is fairly enclosed.

Flight doesn't mean much when the ceiling is only 10ft high. And it's difficult to 'go around him' when he's planted himself in the doorway or in a 5ft corridor.

However, all of that can apply to any tank build, not just the dwarven defender. And seriously, how many random encounters and mooks have the ability to overcome ALL what I've just mentioned, especially in published adventures?
Minibosses and final bosses? most likely.

5ft steps...

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Dwarven defender is good if you can control the place of the fight. Especially if it's in a dungeon or tomb, or something which usually is fairly enclosed.

Flight doesn't mean much when the ceiling is only 10ft high. And it's difficult to 'go around him' when he's planted himself in the doorway or in a 5ft corridor.

However, all of that can apply to any tank build, not just the dwarven defender. And seriously, how many random encounters and mooks have the ability to overcome ALL what I've just mentioned, especially in published adventures?
Minibosses and final bosses? most likely.

That's the reason for Spiked Chain Trippers. They can block an area 45' across, in which no enemy can move. A Dwarven Defender essentially only blocks 5'. Yes, he can use a reach weapon for AoOs, but damage doesn't stop someone from moving. Tripping does.

And dungeons aren't necessarily common, and even when they are, it's expected that the enemies will be moving in ways the PCs can't always handle(kobolds with secret tunnels, air elementals using vents, even Druids in Badger form). A SCT can still be useful in those situations, a DD can't.

[Lysander]

Maybe the solution isn't to keep the enemy from the wizard but to keep the wizard from the enemy. Your squishy magician can use Fly, Expeditious Retreat, Dimension Door, Blink, Mirror Image and many other spells to move away from or avoid attacks from enemies. You can make it so that an enemy attacks your fighter just because it's either fight them or waste turns (while being hacked by a fighter) running after illusions.

[BooNL]

Maybe the solution isn't to keep the enemy from the wizard but to keep the wizard from the enemy. Your squishy magician can use Fly, Expeditious Retreat, Dimension Door, Blink, Mirror Image and many other spells to move away from or avoid attacks from enemies. You can make it so that an enemy attacks your fighter just because it's either fight them or waste turns (while being hacked by a fighter) running after illusions.

Though by this logic, why would you use a tank at all?

[PhoenixRivers]

Though by this logic, why would you use a tank at all?

Tank?

Heavy melee/range PC's that are too much a danger to ignore take pressure off the others, and limit the situations in which they are assaulted. It doesn't need to be 100%.

If the 'tank' makes it unfeasible or unwise to go after the wizard/cleric 50% of the time, congratulations, he's just threatened the enemy, and protected the wizard/cleric as well as a blink spell. If they're already blinking, it's yet another layer of defense.

[Lysander]

Though by this logic, why would you use a tank at all?

Because your wizard doesn't have enough spells to blast all the enemies he's going to face that day, and needs to save them to weaken boss creatures. Plus, you get more damage out of buffing a crowd of warriors for several minutes than zapping a few targets. As the saying I just made up goes, "Zap a handful of goblins, win for a moment. Increase your fighter's strength for ten minutes, win the encounter."

[BooNL]

Tank?

Heavy melee/range PC's that are too much a danger to ignore take pressure off the others, and limit the situations in which they are assaulted. It doesn't need to be 100%.

If the 'tank' makes it unfeasible or unwise to go after the wizard/cleric 50% of the time, congratulations, he's just threatened the enemy, and protected the wizard/cleric as well as a blink spell. If they're already blinking, it's yet another layer of defense.

Point taken.
Granted, I don't disagree with you. But when listing all the things a wizard can do to avoid damage, I sometimes wonder why we bother with fighters at all...

Anyway, back on topic. Knights are indeed build with an "aggro" system in mind. Though I suppose even something like a Dragonfire Adapt could make for a good tank.

[PhoenixRivers]

Point taken.
Granted, I don't disagree with you. But when listing all the things a wizard can do to avoid damage, I sometimes wonder why we bother with fighters at all...

Anyway, back on topic. Knights are indeed build with an "aggro" system in mind. Though I suppose even something like a Dragonfire Adapt could make for a good tank.

Because it's an effective way to slow down the enemy fighters, and deal damage.

Haste does more damage than fireball, with a fighter ally.