[4e] HELP! DM is throwing level 7 elite gnoll ranger at me!

[Dragon queen]

So at the end of last session, I saw my DM, known as Gamerkid I believe on this forum, writing something on a piece of paper, I asked him what it was, and he told me it was a monster for next session. So I took a peek at the paper when he wasn't looking.

He's throwing a level 7 Gnoll ranger savage berserker at us next session! With over 100 HP!

We're just a level 2 party composing of:
Me, a Razorclaw shifter ranger.
A Deva sorcerer.
A Teifling fighter.
A Eldarin invoker.
And a Human cleric.

Any tips,tactics, or criticism of our party build?

[Aron Times]

It's one monster, albeit a much higher-level one. Use all your dailies on it and you should win.

[Yakk]

How accurate are you as a party?

100 HP is only 20 HP per party member. The hard part will be staying up under the pounding while you actually manage to hit.

[Dragon queen]

Thanks for the advice, I'm a newby.

Problem is, from the looks of its stats, IIRC, it had some pretty high defenses.

[Kurald Galain]

He's throwing a level 7 Gnoll ranger savage berserker at us next session! With over 100 HP!

Ah, it's five levels above you, you should be able to handle that.

Make sure the cleric only heals people that are already in negatives. Also, have everyone carry at least one potion of healing, and suggest that one or two people take a multiclass feat to cleric, warlord or bard to give them an additional healing power.

Take out your dailies and use them. Take out your action points and use those, too. If you have anything that does automatic damage (like the wizard's flaming sphere, but sorcerers and invokers have similar powers), use it.

Given the high defenses, I hope everyone has an 18 or 20 in their primary attack stat? That's an easy tweak that always helps. Also, if anyone has a feat that boosts damage, consider replacing it by a feat that boosts accuracy (because that is almost always a better boost to average damage).

[BRC]

Is it's name "Hogger" Perchance?

[Gamerlord]

So at the end of last session, I saw my DM, known as Gamerkid I believe on this forum, writing something on a piece of paper, I asked him what it was, and he told me it was a monster for next session. So I took a peek at the paper when he wasn't looking.

He's throwing a level 7 Gnoll ranger savage berserker at us next session! With over 100 HP!

We're just a level 2 party composing of:
Me, a Razorclaw shifter ranger.
A Deva sorcerer.
A Teifling fighter.
A Eldarin invoker.
And a Human cleric.

Any tips,tactics, or criticism of our party build?

You.did.WHAT?
Grrrrrrrrr.......

In other news, no, its name is not Hogger.

[BRC]

You.did.WHAT?
Grrrrrrrrr.......

In other news, no, its name is not Hogger.

Uh-oh, somebodies in TROUBLE!

Word of advice, when you Metagame, don't post for suggestions on a forum you know the DM frequents.

That said, Gamerkid, any bloody vengence you desire is justified against the Metagamer who sneaks a peak at your notes.

[Gamerlord]

Uh-oh, somebodies in TROUBLE!

Word of advice, when you Metagame, don't post for suggestions on a forum you know the DM frequents.

That said, Gamerkid, any bloody vengence you desire is justified against the Metagamer who sneaks a peak at your notes.

Actually, she is a newbie, I'll show mercy THIS ONE TIME!

[Sliver]

I might try this next time I DM something IRL.. At the end of the session write some details about some strong monster, way over CR for the PCs and just go to the bathroom or something before everybody leave..

[gman]

Break out the dailies, but because a monster several levels above you is hard to hit, wait until the cleric hits it with something like lance of faith or righteous brand so that you'll have a higher than usual to hit bonus when you use that daily. Combat advantage is a must too. If you're a human with action point, use that too. You could even take it in turns to use aid another if the hit effect of the daily is good enough.

[Tyndmyr]

It's one monster, albeit a much higher-level one. Use all your dailies on it and you should win.

This. 4E is surprisingly forgiving.

You've got three ranged strikers, you should have some damage on it before it notices you're there, and it really isn't all that difficult to take it down rapidly with your group. And you've got a cleric too to patch ya'll up, so just don't get one shot.

Oh, and asking for advice is not metagaming.

[BRC]

Oh, and asking for advice is not metagaming.

Yes, but sneaking a peak at the DM's notes is.

[Sir_Elderberry]

Oh, and asking for advice is not metagaming.

Not unless the character starts taking actions based on the fact that the player knows a L7 Elite Gnoll Ranger is coming up.

And looking at DM sheets without permission, while not metagaming, isn't very nice.

[Tyndmyr]

Yes, but sneaking a peak at the DM's notes is.

Not metagaming.

Bad thing to do, sure, but metagaming isn't a catch-all term for everything negative.

[Shadow_Elf]

Not metagaming.

Bad thing to do, sure, but metagaming isn't a catch-all term for everything negative.

It is metagaming. The characters now know to save their dailies/action points/what-have-you for an enemy only the players know of in advance.

[Kiero]

That said, Gamerkid, any bloody vengence you desire is justified against the Metagamer who sneaks a peak at your notes.

Yeah, because that's a mature response...

[Leon]

Yeah, because that's a mature response...

The better response is to let them think its a 7th lvl elite Gnoll but turns out to be something else (and possibly Worse)

[Vitruviansquid]

Are you even sure you know that you're supposed to fight this gnoll? Are you sure the battle doesn't take place somewhere special so that you get a terrain advantage? Don't you trust your DM provide a way?

[Zen Master]

Now, what's really interesting here is the encounter that comes just after 'Hogger'. That's the real beauty - trick the players into burning all their dailies on one encounter, then throw another big challenge at them.

Naturally, I assume this was the whole point of leaving the note around to be found. And the explanation for Gamerkids forgiving attitude =)

[Yakk]

It is both metagaming, and cheating (as in you intruded on the DM's private notes).

Metagaming, because you want to extend your player knowledge (gained from cheating) to your character (so they can defeat the gnoll).

Cheating, because you are not supposed to (as a player) look at the DM's private notes.

[Gamerlord]

Now, what's really interesting here is the encounter that comes just after 'Hogger'. That's the real beauty - trick the players into burning all their dailies on one encounter, then throw another big challenge at them.

Naturally, I assume this was the whole point of leaving the note around to be found. And the explanation for Gamerkids forgiving attitude =)

That was a busy session, No doubt she looked at it when I was double-checking the stats for the elf paladin of Torog they were fighting near the end. The reason it was out in the open is that my DM screen hasn't come yet ( ) and I was checking its stats when the sorcerer used his chromatic orb power on the pally.

[Gamerlord]

Are you even sure you know that you're supposed to fight this gnoll? Are you sure the battle doesn't take place somewhere special so that you get a terrain advantage? Don't you trust your DM provide a way?

It is going to be a straight up fight.

[Yakk]

It is going to be a straight up fight.

By the way, throwing a level+5 elite at a party is slightly outside the bounds of the encounter building guildlines. If the elite happens to be a soldier or brute, that also stretches the guildlines.

On the other hand, a level +5 elite is *2 (elite)*2(+4 levels)*1.2 (+1 level), or (by the rules) about an even-level challenge. But because you are at the edge of the encounter building guildlines, the stability of it will be much crazier.

And if the creature is a MM1elite (or an elite produced by DMG1 templates), things get worse, as defence goes up faster than offence does.

I'd be more comfortable reworking the creature into a level+0 or level+1 solo myself. This would bring the creature's defences down to the point where you aren't overly rewarding "more to-hit bonus" optimisation, reduce the reward for auto-hit powers and the like, and imply a 2 phase fight (pre-bloodied, and a power-up when bloodied). Plus, instead of the creature nearly auto-hitting, the creature would miss about half of the time.

But that is just me.

[Gamerlord]

I used the guidelines in the DMG for making NPCs, and slapped a template on it, its within their XP budget!

[Yakk]

I used the guidelines in the DMG for making NPCs, and slapped a template on it, its within their XP budget!

*nod*. Except, of course, the DMG also tells you not to throw L+5 elites at players. And don't throw near L+5 soldiers or brutes at players.

Instead of what you did, you could take a lower level (3 or 4) gnoll monster, throw the ranger template on it, then throw another aggressive template on it. Then give it solo-level HP (using DMG2 rules and templates ideally, not DMG1 rules).

I'd maybe start with a Graywall Gnoll Mercenary, de-level it, add ranger template, maybe tack on a whirling barbarian template (which might need a tad of homebrew), change the weapon to a double-flail, fill it full of minor action based attacks from the ranger class.

Have it hold back on the Whirling Barbarian rage power until it is bloodied (giving it a nice upgrade). Also, replace the pack power with an accuracy/damage bonus like +1d6 while bloodied (ie, roll d20+1d6 for all attacks while bloodied, and deal +1d6 damage). And maybe recharge the class encounter powers.

Maybe toss some recharge action onto the line sweep power while you are at it. And boost the damage die of the flail to d12. And pick a close burst barbarian encounter attack power...

Next, add in the "no shutting the monster down" -- as a non action at the start of their turn, the creature can become dazed and lose 1/10 of max HP to shrug off any one condition (recharge 456).

The result would be a creature that the players could hit, that would last reasonably long time, and would threaten the party sufficiently.

But that would just be me. I like having creatures that the party can hit -- "you miss" gets boring, and just leads to players having to massively optimise to-hit chance.

[Logalmier]

I like having creatures that the party can hit -- "you miss" gets boring, and just leads to players having to massively optimise to-hit chance.

You act like that's a bad thing.

[Shadow_Elf]

I used the guidelines in the DMG for making NPCs, and slapped a template on it, its within their XP budget!

"Within their XP Budget" =/= "Acceptable Encounter".

For example, say I have a level 1 party of 5. Say I want them to fight a single monster, and make it an easy, "pre-boss" encounter. Here are my options for a level + 0 encounter:

1 Level 1 Solo
1 Level 6 Elite
1 Level 10 Normal
1 Level 18 Minion

I will let someone like Yakk or Gralamin who is good at crunching the numbers, but of these four options, it is clear that the level 1 Solo is the best choice for emulating the desired encounter. So, instead of using the level 7 Elite, make a level 2 Solo. That way, your PCs also don't know its stats (since its statblock'll be different) you can still surprise them, and it will not result in craziness.

EDIT: Ninja'd it seems. I took way to long to write this post.

[Gamerlord]

The DMG itself says that "four to five levels above them is not a killer encounter"

[Asbestos]

Wait, so its a gnoll with both the Ranger template and the Savage Beserker template stacked on? Sounds more like a level 7 Solo to me. Also, Savage Berserker can cause some damn hard to kill critters and can gain APs... attack its Will? That's probably the lowest Defense it has.

Good luck, I made a Gnoll Barbarian Savage Beserker for someone requesting a Solo... apparently it thrashed half the party and it wasn't 5 levels above them.