More Monk Shenanagins from Herpestidae.

[John Cribati]

Hi there. Some of you may remember me from a Monk/Rogue multiclass discussion a few months back. I'm back with another idea. I shall never give up on the monk and its wasted potential! Never!!!

My Idea: Monk/Wizard. Specifically, Wizard with staff.Getting into close range elicits a bonk on the head.

Awesome, no?
And now I wait for my idea to be shot down.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Use Carmendine Monk

[Tavar]

So, what exactly does the monk give you?

[Foryn Gilnith]

Int bonus to AC, 2 hit points, a power level closer to the rest of the party (that's a big part), and 2 skill points.

[Signmaker]

So, what exactly does the monk give you?

Useful base saves, useful AC bonus if combined with Carmendine Monk. Depending on the scenario, it MIGHT be worth the lost caster level. Might. Frankly depends on intended level of play and intended casting strategy.

[Snails]

I believe there is a solid Monk/Sorceror PrC, and a feat to use Cha to power some of your Wis Monk abilities. On top of the obvious avenues for buffing, there are feats for converting spells into melee bonuses. It is an interesting avenue, albeit not an easy one for a player to manage due to the bookkeeping.

[Eldariel]

Enlightened Fist with Carmendine Monk/Kung-Fu Genius (Carmendine Monk is strictly better but Setting-specific to Forgotten Realms) is obviously the way to go. E. Fist even gets some decent spells. Then just take a few levels of Incantatrix, Arcane Disciple: War (or anything with Divine Power), persist a buffton of buffs and go to town with your Arcane Strike + Greater Mighty Wallop + Wraithstrike + Greater Magic Weapon + Bite of the Werebear + company and deal epic damage. Or do the same without Incantatrix, Quickening Divine Power each fight (and repreparing it with Pearl of Power IV or that stupid whatsitsname Wizard-specific spell).

It's decent. Not as good as a real Wizard, but yeah, you can smack people in the head with staves. Especially Ki Focus staves that deal ~lotsd8 damage. Heavy Ki Focus Quarterstaff for bonus points. Don't forget to go to town either. You also get some arcane channeling-like ability and can pick up another one with Smiting Spell so channel Split Ray Twinned Enervations and Disintegrates alongside your boomboom.

[Thurbane]

How about Monk/Duskblade/Enlightened Fist with Carmendine/Kung Fu Genius? Not as tough as a straight Duskblade, but is it workable?

[Doc Roc]

Enlightened Fist with Carmendine Monk/Kung-Fu Genius (Carmendine Monk is strictly better but Setting-specific to Forgotten Realms) is obviously the way to go. E. Fist even gets some decent spells. Then just take a few levels of Incantatrix, Arcane Disciple: War (or anything with Divine Power), persist a buffton of buffs and go to town with your Arcane Strike + Greater Mighty Wallop + Wraithstrike + Greater Magic Weapon + Bite of the Werebear + company and deal epic damage. Or do the same without Incantatrix, Quickening Divine Power each fight (and repreparing it with Pearl of Power IV or that stupid whatsitsname Wizard-specific spell).

It's decent. Not as good as a real Wizard, but yeah, you can smack people in the head with staves. Especially Ki Focus staves that deal ~lotsd8 damage. Heavy Ki Focus Quarterstaff for bonus points. Don't forget to go to town either. You also get some arcane channeling-like ability and can pick up another one with Smiting Spell so channel Split Ray Twinned Enervations and Disintegrates alongside your boomboom.

This. This and this and this.

[eepop]

I'm planning this for our trailblazer game if we keep up with it for long enough. The changes they made actually allow for it to work pretty well. Still not as good as a wizard 20, but good enough and can cover some of the holes in a monk's abilities.

Monk 11/Wizard 2/Fighter 7

Random notes:
---Carmendine monk obviously
---weapon Kata: Falchion
---Trade wizard familiar for immediate action thing from PHB2 - Transmutation is probably the best since it works well with your increased movement speed.
---Full Flurry (with Falchion due to Weapon Kata).
---Can power attack while flurrying with 1 BA -> 2 damage return rate.
---Can cast level 2 wizard spells. Spell slots 5/4/4/4/3/2/1 plus bonuses for specialist wizard and intelligence bonus gives 5/6/6/6/5/4/3. Can only use second level spells in the higher slots though.
---Mostly keep to spells that are rotes (Most single-target spells with a duration of 1 min/level or less.) That gives you 6 first level wizard spells and 24 second level wizard spells each combat.
---Wraithstrike is the obvious spell you want the most for combat, but there are also several others that expand your other abilities nicely.
--- Swift Spell Metamagic feat. TB also allows for metamagic on the fly, so you can swift everything you have each combat since your 30 spells should be enough to cover anything you might need.
--- Caster Level 11.
--- Improved Crit or Keen gives 15-20 critical threat.
--- Weapon Expertise x2 from fighter levels can increase critical multiplier to x4.


Roleplay is that he is a once Noble Djinn that was stripped of his power and banished from the City of Brass.

Hopefully that wasn't too confusing for those who haven't seen Trailblazer yet. If it was, go check out Trailblazer now, cause its awesome.

Among other things, it makes even just a small splash in casting help close the caster-non-caster gap a good bit. Its 3E so of course the gap is still there, but you can afford to hang with the big boys by just investing a couple levels instead of all the levels you need to sink in baseline 3.5 to do the Incantrix/Arcane Disciple/Enlighted Fist stuff, etc.

[Sir Giacomo]

It never ends to surprise me what kind of stuff you can do with monks outside the core rules.
This makes it even harder for me to understand why so many people (who most often play non-core rules) think that monks are underpowered.

- Giacomo

ps: eepop, how do you get 11th level spellcasting with the build?

[Prime32]

ps: eepop, how do you get 11th level spellcasting with the build?

I'm guessing that he's using a houserule which gives spellcasters ToB-style multiclassing.

It never ends to surprise me what kind of stuff you can do with monks outside the core rules.
This makes it even harder for me to understand why so many people (who most often play non-core rules) think that monks are underpowered.

Giacomo, because I'm in a weird mood I'm going to ask you how a monk 20 is better than a monk 2/psychic warrior 18 with the Tashalatora feat.

[UglyPanda]

It never ends to surprise me what kind of stuff you can do with monks outside the core rules.
This makes it even harder for me to understand why so many people (who most often play non-core rules) think that monks are underpowered.

That argument is unsound.

It's not the other classes and feats making the Monk better, it's the Monk dragging down the other classes and feats.

It's like if I gave a Psion a level of Commoner. Is this build making the Commoner better or the Psion worse?

[Prime32]

It's like if I gave a Psion a level of Commoner. Is this build making the Commoner better or the Psion worse?

Depends on whether you take Chicken-Infested.

[Sir Giacomo]

Giacomo, because I'm in a weird mood I'm going to ask you how a monk 20 is better than a monk 2/psychic warrior 18 with the Tashalatora feat.

Well, outside core with plenty of prestige classes that advance both a monk's and other class (like spellcastiong) abilities, why should a level 20 monk remain the benchmark?
I've always only argued about a broad balance for core classes and the combinations therein. But outside core?
The monk2/psychic warrior 18 could be better done than any monk20 build, or even - gasp - full spellcasters or - double gasp - an unarmed swordage variant with a generous DM.
But I leave that to others to answer that, since I lack most companions and rules outside core.
The only thing I know is that you can easily outside core with a level 20 monk do about 1000 damage/round with awesome stealth skill bonuses and near-epic defenses. That's enough for most playing purposes, I daresay.

- Giacomo

edit:

It's like if I gave a Psion a level of Commoner. Is this build making the Commoner better or the Psion worse?

No, the comparison should rather be: if you add a (possibly broken and unbalanced) non-core element to a core element, will it make the core element more powerful? Yes.

[Prime32]

No, the comparison should rather be: if you add a (possibly broken and unbalanced) non-core element to a core element, will it make the core element more powerful? Yes.

This implies that everything in Core is balanced. Yep, wizards casting wish through simulacrums of clones of astral projections are way more balanced than say, duskblades.

The monk2/psychic warrior 18 could be better done than any monk20 build, or even - gasp - full spellcasters or - double gasp - an unarmed swordage variant with a generous DM.

Are you implying that an unarmed swordsage is stronger than a full spellcaster? And that's like saying that I could beat Mike Tyson in a fist-fight if he had his eyes closed and wasn't allowed to move.

But I leave that to others to answer that, since I lack most companions and rules outside core.

So you say that everything outside Core is unbalanced despite knowing nothing about it? The writers had no experience with the system when they wrote the Core rulebooks.

The only thing I know is that you can easily outside core with a level 20 monk do about 1000 damage/round with awesome stealth skill bonuses and near-epic defenses. That's enough for most playing purposes, I daresay.

I would like to see this build.

[UglyPanda]

I only said Psion as an example. My argument is exactly the same whether you substitute Bard, Wizard, or even Monk.

I do not wish to get caught up in trivialities.

If I gave a Monk a level of Commoner, is the build making the Commoner better or the Monk worse?

And your argument is starting to confuse me. First you say that you don't understand how Monks can be underpowered if you use non-core, then you accuse non-core of being overpowered and refuse to use it. Which is it?

[sofawall]

I would like to see this build.

It's called Pun-Pun.

[Prime32]

It's called Pun-Pun.

Pazuzu gives out wishes to monks now? Besides, I should point out if 1000 damage/turn is the highest anyone has gotten in theoretical optimisation of monks ever, that there are barbarian builds with damage outputs so high that they had to invent new forms of notation to describe them.

[Sir Giacomo]

This implies that everything in Core is balanced. Yep, wizards casting wish through simulacrums of clones of astral projections are way more balanced than say, duskblades.

Duskblades are non-core.
And yes, I maintain that core classes are balanced - but that is for a different thread. Currently I'm doing some playtesting and also check the playtests of others. Will comment more when I've collected more evidence.

Are you implying that an unarmed swordsage is stronger than a full spellcaster? And that's like saying that I could beat Mike Tyson in a fist-fight if he had his eyes closed and wasn't allowed to move.

No, I'm not implying that. There could be swordsage builds that powerful, but I do not know that. Outside core, I do not dare to make comments about what class combo is most/more powerful as a rule.

So you say that everything outside Core is unbalanced despite knowing nothing about it? The writers had no experience with the system when they wrote the Core rulebooks.

But they playtested it and it came out remarkably well-balanced. I can only argue about balance in core, outside core it would only be coincidence (and/or good DMing) when a balanced result comes up - because the companions released are all optional, by themselves, and were never meant to provide be a full new system.

I would like to see this build.

It's fairly simple. Get 20 attacks and ability to move and full attack (can be done with various methods, my favourite being a belt of battle, flurry and TWF tree plus haste effect). Do 50 dmg on each hit, which is fairly easy for a monk since the base unarmed damage/hit caps can be pushed to 24d8 with greater mighty wallop and other size damage dice boosts (Person_Man has done a guide on this somewhere here on the boards).
Add the many monk's defenses and lvl 20 wbl items on top and you're set. Possibly achieve near-single-ability focus via intuitive attack feat (WIS for attack bonus).

And...

I
If I gave a Monk a level of Commoner, is the build making the Commoner better or the Monk worse?

And your argument is starting to confuse me. First you say that you don't understand how Monks can be underpowered if you use non-core, then you accuse non-core of being overpowered and refuse to use it. Which is it?

Again, you use the wrong comparison. Of course, when you give a pc class level to an npc class, it makes the npc class build better. Npc classes are not balanced to be as powerful as the pc classes in core.

The argument should not be confusing.
I do not understand how monks can be considered underpowered when there are so many things possible with it that can be used to reach absurd power levels for the monk. It does not matter for most game play purposes, I daresay, if the x/y combo then does 2000 damage/round instead of the monk level 20 possibilities I outlined.
At the same time, I strongly suspect that in general, the non-core rules contain broken/unbalanced material, because all of those rules are optional and follow completely different goals by their designers/makers than keep the game balanced.

- Giacomo

[Prime32]

Duskblades are non-core.

Um... you seem to have missed the point I was making. I asked if a character who cannot die is more balanced than a duskblade.

And yes, I maintain that core classes are balanced - but that is for a different thread. Currently I'm doing some playtesting and also check the playtests of others. Will comment more when I've collected more evidence.

Um...

So you say that everything outside Core is unbalanced despite knowing nothing about it? The writers had no experience with the system when they wrote the Core rulebooks.

But they playtested it and it came out remarkably well-balanced.

They playtested it with wizards who used only blasting spells and clerics who only healed (you know, rather than casting one of their many insta-death spells). They didn't use half the stuff in the books, and the Stormwind Fallacy was all over the place.

Who said it was "remarkably well-balanced"? They playtest splats too - they in fact have the benefit of more playtesting.

I can only argue about balance in core, outside core it would only be coincidence (and/or good DMing) when a balanced result comes up - because the companions released are all optional, by themselves, and were never meant to provide be a full new system.

Wait... coincidence? Would you prefer if they were mandatory? How could they be anything other than optional? They can't force you to use a book - they can't even force you not to make up your own rules and say you're playing D&D. The designers have said themselves that things in Core are unbalanced, and later books include fixes and clarifications to Core rules.

I would like to see this build.

It's fairly simple. Get 20 attacks and ability to move and full attack (can be done with various methods, my favourite being a belt of battle, flurry and TWF tree plus haste effect). Do 50 dmg on each hit, which is fairly easy for a monk since the base unarmed damage/hit caps can be pushed to 24d8 with greater mighty wallop and other size damage dice boosts (Person_Man has done a guide on this somewhere here on the boards).

Belt of battle functions a limited number of times, haste only applies once, and you cannot dual-wield flurries. That would get you 5 attacks from flurry, +3 from TWF unarmed strike, +1 from haste, for a total of 9 attacks at 3/4 BAB which must be used while standing still. That also requires a wizard to buff you, when he could be mind-raping the enemy instead.
Base monk damage/lv20 - 2d10
+ INA (unarmed strike) - 4d6
+ Wizard aid in the form of Greater mighty wallop - 4d10
+ Wizard aid in the form of Enlarge person - 8d6
Average damage=8d6=(8x3.5)=28

Add the many monk's defenses and lvl 20 wbl items on top and you're set. Possibly achieve near-single-ability focus via intuitive attack feat (WIS for attack bonus).

You still have poor damage per-hit unless you find some way to add sneak attack, skirmish or something.

Again, you use the wrong comparison. Of course, when you give a pc class level to an npc class, it makes the npc class build better. Npc classes are not balanced to be as powerful as the pc classes in core.

Umm... I'll leave this one to the guy who originally asked.

The argument should not be confusing.
I do not understand how monks can be considered underpowered when there are so many things possible with it that can be used to reach absurd power levels for the monk. It does not matter for most game play purposes, I daresay, if the x/y combo then does 2000 damage/round instead of the monk level 20 possibilities I outlined.

There are many absurd things which can apply to all classes. The monk is not special by being a member of the set "all classes".

At the same time, I strongly suspect that in general, the non-core rules contain broken/unbalanced material, because all of those rules are optional and follow completely different goals by their designers/makers than keep the game balanced.

Wait, what? You suspect? What "completely different goals"?

[Doc Roc]

I'll kill any monk you make with a wizard of two levels lower. I do think monk is actually fairly high tier five, but.... It's still tier five.

Heck, I'll kill any melee monk you make with a caster built using monk levels in some sophisticated and cool way.

[Sir Giacomo]

They playtested it with wizards who used only blasting spells and clerics who only healed (you know, rather than casting one of their many insta-death spells). They didn't use half the stuff in the books.

Well, I doubt that they never playtested and discussed all aspects of the game.

Wait... coincidence? Would you prefer if they were mandatory? The designers have said themselves that things in Core are unbalanced, and later books include fixes and clarifications to Core rules.

Of course I'd not like if the non-core rules were mandatory. What gave you that idea when I maintain that non-core is likely unbalanced? The new rules are optional - and not designed for balance, but for fluff, and provide new ideas.
And while I'm saying that the core rules are broadly balanced, they certainly were not without mistakes- so errata and clarifications are OK.

Belt of battle functions a limited number of times, and you cannot dual-wield flurries. That would get you 5 attacks from flurry, +3 from TWF unarmed strike, +1 from haste, for a total of 9 attacks at 3/4 BAB. That also requires a wizard to buff you, when he could be mind-raping the enemy instead.

With 24d8 per hit, you'll also get to 1000 damage without a belt of battle. And I did not mean dual-wielding, but taking to full-round attacks with a belt of battle.
Finally, a wizard is never needed for those buffs since there are items and feats that can do all this, in particular outside core.

You still have poor damage per-hit unless you find some way to add sneak attack, skirmish or something.

No, as I already illustrated. The monk's unarmed strike possession is his class-specific damage boost. 24d8 per hit is not "poor". And you could theoretically even go higher (only the MM size damage progression table does not go beyond that).

There are many absurd things which can apply to all classes. The monk is not special by being a member of the set "all classes".

Exactly my point.

Wait, what? You suspect? What "completely different goals"?

As outlined above: fluff and new ideas (say, for character concepts and specific campaigns).

- Giacomo

Edit:

I'll kill any monk you make with a wizard of two levels lower. I do think monk is actually fairly high tier five, but.... It's still tier five.

In core? Because outside core, it could well be the case (with celerity and all that).

- Giacomo

[Doc Roc]

In core, Gia. You know full well the dark breadth of my abilities.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

No, as I already illustrated. The monk's unarmed strike possession is his class-specific damage boost. 24d8 per hit is not "poor". And you could theoretically even go higher (only the MM size damage progression table does not go beyond that).

At the level you get it at, it is poor.

[Sir Giacomo]

In core, Gia. You know full well the dark breadth of my abilities.

You do realise that a wizard going against a 2 levels higher monk would also have much lower wbl for items?
And do not underestimate my abilities either....

At the level you get it at, it is poor.

At level 15 (and possibly even lower)? I do not think so.

- Giacomo

[Pharaoh's Fist]

At level 15 (and possibly even lower)? I do not think so.

Optimized barbarians hit harder.

[Prime32]

The new rules are optional - and not designed for balance, but for fluff, and provide new ideas.

No.

Belt of battle functions a limited number of times, and you cannot dual-wield flurries. That would get you 5 attacks from flurry, +3 from TWF unarmed strike, +1 from haste, for a total of 9 attacks at 3/4 BAB. That also requires a wizard to buff you, when he could be mind-raping the enemy instead.

With 24d8 per hit, you'll also get to 1000 damage without a belt of battle. And I did not mean dual-wielding, but taking to full-round attacks with a belt of battle.
Finally, a wizard is never needed for those buffs since there are items and feats that can do all this, in particular outside core.

How do you get to 24d8? Besides, even if you can hit 1000 damage, you can only do that once per day by burning all the belt's charges at once, and in that case you can't move while doing it. Your original claim was 1000 damage per round, while moving.

You still have poor damage per-hit unless you find some way to add sneak attack, skirmish or something.

No, as I already illustrated. The monk's unarmed strike possession is his class-specific damage boost. 24d8 per hit is not "poor". And you could theoretically even go higher (only the MM size damage progression table does not go beyond that).

Except that greater mighty wallop, etc. are not class features of the monk class, and anyone can use them. Or they can get the damage through easier means and use the extra money for other stuff.

There are many absurd things which can apply to all classes. The monk is not special by being a member of the set "all classes".

Exactly my point.

Wait, what? You suspect? What "completely different goals"?

As outlined above: fluff and new ideas (say, for character concepts and specific campaigns).

That isn't true at all. Look at the Rule Compendium, please. How is that about fluff and new ideas? And there are many concepts which just can't be done in Core, like armoured mages. Then there's things like the psionic classes, which are much better-balanced than Vancian classes, with less powerful options but more flexibility in how they use each one (and are also easier to use, IMO).

In core? Because outside core, it could well be the case (with celerity and all that).

- Giacomo

Giacamo, I hardly ever play casters and I am confident that I could do this. I would also do it with a druid.

[Sir Giacomo]

Optimized barbarians hit harder.

Non-core? I don't know. In core? They should, since the monks have more special abilities.

- Giacomo

[Prime32]

Non-core? I don't know. In core? They should, since the monks have more special abilities.

- Giacomo

Giacamo, a spell is a special ability. Look at the number of spells a 20th-level sorcerer knows of each level. Add them together. Now add his familiar. That's how many class features he has - 44. And his 2nd-level spells do the same things as monk capstones, but better (assuming he doesn't get a very cheap item for it).

Now do the same thing with a 20th-level wizard. Open to the spells section of the PHB, to the Wiz/Sor section. He has every one of those as a class feature, and a familiar and bonus feats.