[3.5] Abuses of non-associated class levels

[Thurbane]

Hey all,

Just wondering what dirty tricks that you, as a DM, used with monsters and non-associated class levels? You can get some really tough opponents for their CR this way. For instance, you could throw 6 levels of Cleric on a Minotaur for a CR boost of only +3. And it would have the gear of an ECL 14 character.

...of course, sometime exactly what is and isn't an assocaited class can become a little murky. Just wondering what creative combos you've come up with to throw at your party?

Nonassociated Class Levels
If you add a class level that doesn’t directly play to a creature’s strength the class level is considered nonassociated, and things get a little more complicated. Adding a nonassociated class level to a monster increases its CR by 1/2 per level until one of its nonassociated class levels equals its original Hit Dice. At that point, each additional level of the same class or a similar one is considered associated and increases the monster’s CR by 1.

Levels in NPC classes are always treated as nonassociated.

[Foryn Gilnith]

I've used gate loops. I've used planar binding to get spells like astral projection far before their time. I've used magic traps Tippyverse style. I have never used non-associated class levels, those scourges of the earth.

[Xefas]

What's the point of 'abusing' CR as the DM? Its not a contest to see how fast you can murder your players. You have all the power. You could just say that they all get exploded by lightning and it'd waste a lot less of everyone's time than trying to min/max stats that you, as the DM, have absolute control over.

Why not just judge the actual challenge of an encounter and assign an appropriate CR using your own judgment, rather than the notoriously easily broken methods listed by WotC?

[LurkerInPlayground]

Proving that you can break the game is a popular sport around here.

[ericgrau]

That and the minotaur only gets NPC wealth, not PC wealth.

[erikun]

Great Wyrm Dragon with 40 levels of monk? Because nothing willing associates with the monk class. [/rimshot]

[ericgrau]

Paladin class levels are a better fit, since he will not be associated with evil monsters or else he falls .

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

A Dragonkin from the Draconomicon is a CR 3 melee combatant with 7 HD. You could add Sorcerer 6/ caster PrC 6 and he'd technically be CR 9, with 12th level spellcasting and a +13 BAB.

A Kobold Vampire Aristocrat 4 is only CR 3...

[Foryn Gilnith]

Proving that you can break the game is a popular sport around here.

Much too metagamey for me. I'll take in-character wish loops, planar bondage, or even drown-healing any day. CR has no great in-universe effect.

[jokey665]

drown-healing

Not gonna lie, the first time I heard about drown healing was the day I really learned how broken the rules are. And I love it. I've still never had an opportunity to actually use drown healing, though.

[Thurbane]

What's the point of 'abusing' CR as the DM? Its not a contest to see how fast you can murder your players. You have all the power. You could just say that they all get exploded by lightning and it'd waste a lot less of everyone's time than trying to min/max stats that you, as the DM, have absolute control over.

Why not just judge the actual challenge of an encounter and assign an appropriate CR using your own judgment, rather than the notoriously easily broken methods listed by WotC?

*sigh*

Sorry, forgot to put in a discalimer that this is just a thought excercise.

***PLEASE NOTE: THURBANE DOES NOT ENDORSE THE USE OF DIRTY TRICKS BY THE DM AGAINST THE PLAYERS. INFORMATION PRESENTED IN THIS THREAD IS FOR ENTERTAINMENT PURPOSES ONLY, AND THURBANE INC. DOES NOT ACCEPT LIABILITY FOR INTENIONAL MISUSE IN ACTUAL GAMEPLAY***

[Foryn Gilnith]

Just wondering what creative combos you've come up with to throw at your party?

lolwut

This thread is going to be useful for http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...=133263&page=2

[Glimbur]

In an online game I was playing in the party was getting uppity. We killed two dragons with little effort. Sometimes the real DM was busy, so I would throw monsters at the rest of the party to entertain them. 5 Chimeras was no big deal, and we also took down a Necrocarnum Zombie Cloud Giant.

I decided to show them how broken CR can be.

First, four kobold sorcerer 4's. They cast Blindness/Deafness, aiming for Deafness. None of them succeeded, and most of them were killed before they could cast.

Then their big brother came along. Their 40 HD Half-Fiend kobold big brother, with Epic NPC WBL. He asked the PC's what happened, Sense Motive'd them, and Blasphemy'd for a TPK. Technically CR appropriate, assuming I'm allowed to add humanoid hit dice and then Half-Fiend.

tl;dr Half-Fiend + HD + Blasphemy = TPK

[erikun]

drown-healing

Congratulations! You have drowned into a 0 HP corpse!

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingM...AndClassLevels

Hit Dice and Class Levels

Creatures with 1 or less HD replace their monster levels with their character levels. The monster loses the attack bonus, saving throw bonuses, skills, and feats granted by its 1 monster HD and gains the attack bonus, save bonuses, skills, feats, and other class abilities of a 1st-level character of the appropriate class.

Meaning you'd want 40 HD half fiend Gnolls, not Kobolds.

[dspeyer]

The classic abuse is to take a creature who's HD are more than twice its CR and pile on non-associated class levels. For example, a celestial giant bee 3rd level cleric would be cr 2.5. Because apparently a fly speed and natural armor (and a big int penalty) are bad for clerics. There aren't a lot of such examples (in core I think it's just celestial giant bee, mule, camel or squid). If you're willing to take 2x, a howler cleric 6 is cr 6, and has lots of advantages over a human. You can do more horrible things if you add rhd.

But, as has been said, it's pointless. CR was never designed to withstand abuse.

[Eldariel]

Much too metagamey for me. I'll take in-character wish loops, planar bondage, or even drown-healing any day. CR has no great in-universe effect.

Actually, since Truenaming was printed, CR has been an in-game statistic that determines how important a creature is to the multiverse. Yet another reason to love hate the system.

[Saintheart]

EDIT: Know what? This post is actually not on point. Ignore me, move along, move along... :D

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

The classic abuse is to take a creature who's HD are more than twice its CR and pile on non-associated class levels. For example, a celestial giant bee 3rd level cleric would be cr 2.5. Because apparently a fly speed and natural armor (and a big int penalty) are bad for clerics. There aren't a lot of such examples (in core I think it's just celestial giant bee, mule, camel or squid). If you're willing to take 2x, a howler cleric 6 is cr 6, and has lots of advantages over a human. You can do more horrible things if you add rhd.

But, as has been said, it's pointless. CR was never designed to withstand abuse.

Sort of like the rest of the game, eh?

But I see your point. With player abuse, you're optimizing within constraints because you're actually constrained. DMs have no such constraints; a hypothetical DM could simply send the party against a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon and assign no XP if they win, effectively making the creature CR 0.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

For an example of how bad the system really is, a Kobold Adept 4 is CR 1. Try tossing 4 of those a day at a party at ECL 1.

Alternatively, a Huge Half-Fiend Air Elemental has 100' fly speed and Blasphemy at CL 16. CR 10. You don't even need to abuse the CR system to break it.

[Draz74]

Almost anything that doesn't count Tome of Battle levels as "associated" can still benefit a lot from adding a few of them.

The Tarrasque or other many-Hit Dice brute taking a level in Sorcerer, and the Improved Familiar feat, can have quite a nasty little tank for a Familiar.

The Planetar fulfills this trope without even taking any levels. Level 17 Cleric casting for CR 16? Really?

[dspeyer]

The Planetar fulfills this trope without even taking any levels. Level 17 Cleric casting for CR 16? Really?

That's nothing. Check out Steel Dragn.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

If we're just talking about borked stuff now, I must once again call on the horror of the Adamantine...horror. CR 9, Disintigrate, Implosion, and Disjunction. At will. Because that's sane. I wouldn't send it against a level 20 party if I was going to play it realistically.

[Myrmex]

That's nothing. Check out Steel Dragn.

What's wrong with monsters being optimized?

[Sliver]

If we're just talking about borked stuff now, I must once again call on the horror of the Adamantine...horror. CR 9, Disintigrate, Implosion, and Disjunction. At will. Because that's sane. I wouldn't send it against a level 20 party if I was going to play it realistically.

What does the scanner say about his caster level?

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Heh. With my current group, I stopped caring about CR a loooooong time ago, most likely because if I were to actually award XP based on what CR a challenge is supposed to be, routine encounters would grant a level every time. Heavily-templated, classed monsters are par for the course for me. As an example...

If we're just talking about borked stuff now, I must once again call on the horror of the Adamantine...horror. CR 9, Disintigrate, Implosion, and Disjunction. At will. Because that's sane. I wouldn't send it against a level 20 party if I was going to play it realistically.

...my players are currently having their homeland invaded by an army of constructs and undead. At the end of the last session, the party (8 level 12 gestalt characters) took on the first of several dozen invasion ships, which contained:

• 16 adamantine clockwork horrors
• 6 phrenic nimblewrights
• 2 shadow-creature bronze serpents
• 9 warforged soulknife 10/fighter 6

They managed to win through amazing tactics and plenty of luck. Granted, they had 10 NPC healers and 20 NPC archers, but all they really did was provide cover from the disintegrate rays. So no, you don't need to bother with nonassociated class levels to give your PCs a hard fight.

[Thurbane]

• 16 adamantine clockwork horrors
• 6 phrenic nimblewrights
• 2 shadow-creature bronze serpents
• 9 warforged soulknife 10/fighter 6

• 4 calling birds
• 3 French hens
• 2 turtle doves
• And a partridge in a pear tree

[Myrmex]

Pairodice, how long do your battles last? How much prep work do you put into a challenging encounter? How often to you forget a monster could have done X to save itself from Y?

These are all common problems for me when I DM. Unless I practice my monster vs. PC fights before hand, I usually miss out on some crucial ability that lets one of the clever casters outmaneuver me.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Pairodice, how long do your battles last? How much prep work do you put into a challenging encounter? How often to you forget a monster could have done X to save itself from Y?

These are all common problems for me when I DM. Unless I practice my monster vs. PC fights before hand, I usually miss out on some crucial ability that lets one of the clever casters outmaneuver me.

Let's see, that battle mentioned above took about 2-1/2 hours to finish, mostly because we have 3 mostly-new and 2 completely-new players who are still a bit iffy on the rules and because we were finishing up the session at 2 in the morning. If the monsters hadn't been in a highly-defensible position (inside their landed dirigible) it probably would have gone by faster.

In terms of prep work, I have all the monsters statted out ahead of time in a compact stat block with a listed strategy so I can reference it in combat without having to practice anything ahead of time. For instance:

Cold-Iron Serpent
Shadow Creature Bronze Serpent (N)
Initiative +13
HP 88 (FH 2), Speed 75, burrow 45, climb 30
Str 25, Dex 28, Con —, Int —, Wis 13, Cha 3
Feats: Improved Initiative, Great Fortitude, Lightning Reflexes, Improved Energy Resistance (x3)
Fort +7, Ref +14, Will +8, AC 26 (+9 Dex, -2 size, +9 natural), Touch 17, Flat-footed 17
Attack: Bite +17 (+20 vs. holding/wearing metal) Damage: 1d6+10 P plus 1d8+16 E plus improved grab
SQ: Construct traits, constrict, heal electricity (1/3 damage), SR 21 except vs. electricity, resist cold 35, evasion, plane shift to/from Plane of Shadow 1/day, total concealment in shadows
Strategy: Burrow under wall to archers, attack and grab one, constrict until death; if PC comes to save archer, burrow again and ambush, else continue taking out archers.

All the stat blocks fit on one page, so I can easily reference all their abilities, tactics, and stats. It also helps avoid the "Oh crap, it would have survived if it did X" scenario.

All of this comes from experience; I've been DMing since 1e and I know the 3e rules backwards and forwards, so I can take a look at my players' character sheets and get a fairly good idea of what the party is capable of.

[Tavar]

What level were the NPC's? Cause, seriously, if there was any real difference in levels, then the battle should have quickly shifted to all the horrors casting implosion on 1 PC, which at that level pretty much means he's doomed. Then move on to another one. When the duration expires, cast it again. There, no more problem.