Mystic Theurge (please don't throw things at me)

[Kobold-Bard]

Yes I know it's been done to death.
Yes I know it's underpowered.
Yes I know there's no real way to fix it.
But dammit I want to play one, and you're all going to help me.
Please?

So:

1. What's the quickest way into it?
2. Would giving it 14 levels instead of 10 be so bad? (Level 17 in both classes)
3. Would giving it Practised Spellcaster for one or both of your entry classes be so bad?
4. Any generally recommended homebrew Class Features that work well?
5. Any reasonable ways to break action economy (short of 3ed Haste)?

Thanks
K-B

[Leeham]

Bravo sir, for playing a class because you think it's cool! The world needs more people like you.

[ex cathedra]

Precocious Apprentice allows you to qualify with a single level of wizard, and Archivist is an int-based divine casting class. Allowing you to take more than 10 level of it would be very helpful, as well.

In a game without other full casters, a 3/1/Mystic Theurge x won't be that underpowered. In a game with them, your fears might be justified, but be warned that giving the MT too many bonuses will quickly make it very powerful.

[Kobold-Bard]

Bravo sir, for playing a class because you think it's cool! The world needs more people like you.

The Mystic Theurge is the first class I ever wanted to play, but I made one of my first threads on this site, was linked to Pun-Pun, and my whole world changed.

I'm pretty much recovered now, and feel like celebrating with a Theurge (most likely Wiz/Cle, just because it seems right).

Precocious Apprentice allows you to qualify with a single level of wizard, and Archivist is an int-based divine casting class. Allowing you to take more than 10 level of it would be very helpful, as well.

In a game without other full casters, a 3/1/Mystic Theurge x won't be that underpowered. In a game with them, your fears might be justified, but be warned that giving the MT too many bonuses will quickly make it very powerful.

Can has a location for Precocious Assistant?

And I don't plan to add all these bonuses on the same guy, they're options I've thought of, and would discuss before application obviously.

[Myrmex]

Focused Specialist Wizard1/Archivist 3/MT10/Legacy Champion 6 with Precocious Apprentice & Practiced Spellcaster: Wizard is a fast way to get into it.

You end up losing 2 Archivist levels and 3 wizard levels, but you'll have 9th level spells on both sides by the time you hit 20. From level 1 to 14, you'll have nearly full archivist casting, which is, arguably, weaker than wizard casting. However, with enough hunting, you can find a majority of the good arcane spells to put on your list from domains. Also check out the Adept spell list for early access to spells.

In a party with a bunch of full casters, you'll feel a little outshone, since the divine casters will be getting access to spells a level before you and the arcane casters even sooner. Of course, with scribe scroll and them providing the spells, you can quickly fill out your spellbook with hundreds of spells (like some really amazing druid spells), and sharing spellbooks with the other wizards in the party's always fun. You will have to focus a lot on using utility spells so the main casters can keep their two highest levels of spell slots full of the offensive stuff that you underperform at.

'Course, some low level spells will always be useful. Haste, web, glitterdust, grease, celerity, anticipate teleport, shield, mage armor (greater), slow, solid fog, ray of enfeeblement, ray of clumsiness, ray of stupidity, sting ray. I would consider banning abjuration, evocation, and necromancy on the arcane side, and specializing in transmutation or conjuration, simply because they are such awesome schools. Divine casting blasts, abjurs and necromancys just fine.

On the divine side, you could either blast with some of the really awesome druid & cleric evocations (seriously, evocation is mostly a bad school for arcane casters), go typical batman, or use summoned monsters. Being only one level behind in casting on a class rated the second most powerful in the game is not going to be the end of the world.

[Duke of URL]

1. If you feel like bending a rule or two, Any Arcane 1 / Cleric 3 with Precocious Apprentice to satisfy the "2nd-level arcane spells" requirement.

2. I'd have no problem making it a 15-level PrC instead of 10.

3. Shouldn't be unbalanced. It only improves caster level, it doesn't give spells-per-day or spell levels.

4. and 5. A fix I'm toying around with is to allow the MT to cast from both disciplines at the same time. The combined casting time equals the longer of the two, and the total spell level cannot exceed his MT level. Spells are adjudicated separately (i.e., spell resistance, saves, concentration, etc.) and in whichever order the MT desires.

This is intended to leverage the MT's large number of lower-level spells. In essence, if you can be creatively effective with low-level spells in combination, this might be for you.

Edit: I should note that this fix, while it should work fine in vanilla 3.5, is intended to be part of a comprehensive rewrite of the 3.5 rule set. I will further note that under those changes, even without trickery like Precocious Apprentice, you could qualify for MT as a Cleric 2 / Wizard 2...

[Gpope]

The main problem with Mystic Theurge is entry. What it delivers is actually very, very powerful; the problem is that you have to cripple yourself to get it. The problem is not where you're at at level 20 (where you can have 9th and 7th level spells), but where you're at at level 7 (where you're still on 2nd level spells).

If you're going to homebrew a fix, I would just give them the Ultimate Magus's progression, and make their requirements be "able to cast 1st level arcane and divine spells, able to cast 2nd level spells of either type." (There's already some rules cheese that can be interpreted as allowing early entry; this just formalizes it.)

[Zovc]

Divine Metamagic helps you "break action economy" by getting using (edited) swift actions.

Being an Azuran gives you a point of essentia instead of skill points.
Bing an Azuran Cleric (racial substitution level) lets you get extra essentia points instead of turning undead--you are explicitly still able to power divine feats with your 'turning uses.'
Midnight Metamagic lets you use essentia to perform metamagic.
(See Magic of Incarnum)

Arcane Hierophant (Races of the Wild) crosses Druid and [arcane class with familiar] the same way that Mystic Theurge combines [arcane class] and [divine class]. You get to progress both castings over 10 levels and combine your animal companion and your familiar. If you want more MT levels, you should go Druid/[arcane] and do Arcane Hierophant and then put MT on top.

As far as early entry cheese or how good Midnight Metamagic is, I can't help you--I don't know.

[Optimystik]

In response to your question OP (which nobody actually answered), Precocious Apprentice can be found in Complete Arcane.

You can probably reflavor it to be "Precocious Assistant" without penalties.

[Kobold-Bard]

1. If you feel like bending a rule or two, Any Arcane 1 / Cleric 3 with Precocious Apprentice to satisfy the "2nd-level arcane spells" requirement.

2. I'd have no problem making it a 15-level PrC instead of 10.

3. Shouldn't be unbalanced. It only improves caster level, it doesn't give spells-per-day or spell levels.

4. and 5. A fix I'm toying around with is to allow the MT to cast from both disciplines at the same time. The combined casting time equals the longer of the two, and the total spell level cannot exceed his MT level. Spells are adjudicated separately (i.e., spell resistance, saves, concentration, etc.) and in whichever order the MT desires.

I like this idea. So a Wiz 3/Cle 3/MT 6 would be able to cast, say, Dimension Door and CMW in the same round, but not CSW. Right?

The main problem with Mystic Theurge is entry. What it delivers is actually very, very powerful; the problem is that you have to cripple yourself to get it. The problem is not where you're at at level 20 (where you can have 9th and 7th level spells), but where you're at at level 7 (where you're still on 2nd level spells).

If you're going to homebrew a fix, I would just give them the Ultimate Magus's progression, and make their requirements be "able to cast 1st level arcane and divine spells, able to cast 2nd level spells of either type." (There's already some rules cheese that can be interpreted as allowing early entry; this just formalizes it.)

I'll have to look at the Ultimate Magus. What's different between it's and MT's progression?

Divine Metamagic helps you "break action economy" by getting using (edited) swift actions.

Being an Azuran gives you a point of essentia instead of skill points.
Bing an Azuran Cleric (racial substitution level) lets you get extra essentia points instead of turning undead--you are explicitly still able to power divine feats with your 'turning uses.'
Midnight Metamagic lets you use essentia to perform metamagic.
(See Magic of Incarnum)

Arcane Hierophant (Races of the Wild) crosses Druid and [arcane class with familiar] the same way that Mystic Theurge combines [arcane class] and [divine class]. You get to progress both castings over 10 levels and combine your animal companion and your familiar. If you want more MT levels, you should go Druid/[arcane] and do Arcane Hierophant and then put MT on top.

As far as early entry cheese or how good Midnight Metamagic is, I can't help you--I don't know.

Hmm.....Incarnum........I shall look at this too.

So many ideas. I love it

In response to your question OP (which nobody actually answered), Precocious Apprentice can be found in Complete Arcane.

You can probably reflavor it to be "Precocious Assistant" without penalties.

Thank you for your mocking help

[Duke of URL]

I like this idea. So a Wiz 3/Cle 3/MT 6 would be able to cast, say, Dimension Door and CMW in the same round, but not CSW. Right

Right. In the former case, the total spell level is 6 (equal to MT level), in the latter, the total spell level would be 7.

[Telonius]

The best way into it is as a Dragonwrought Kobold Sorcerer with greater draconic rite of passage. The end result of that is a character that casts as a Full sorcerer, (whatever divine class) (sorcerer-3). However, since this is made of truly stinky cheese, your DM will most likely throw things at you if you try it.

Practiced Spellcaster helps a little, but it only grants you effective levels in terms of DC's, not actual spells known.

Most fixes I've seen either make it much, much too powerful (a la Wizard//Cleric) or don't do enough to help it keep up. Honestly, a slight bump in the power is probably needed, but it's hard to find a good homebrew of it.

14 levels would be fine, imo.

[Gpope]

I'll have to look at the Ultimate Magus. What's different between it's and MT's progression?

It has lower requirements (2nd level & 1st level casting instead of 2nd & 2nd), but at 3 of the 10 levels it only advances one side of your casting (the one with lower caster level).

[Myrmex]

The best way into it is as a Dragonwrought Kobold Sorcerer with greater draconic rite of passage. The end result of that is a character that casts as a Full sorcerer, (whatever divine class) (sorcerer-3). However, since this is made of truly stinky cheese, your DM will most likely throw things at you if you try it.

Practiced Spellcaster helps a little, but it only grants you effective levels in terms of DC's, not actual spells known.

Most fixes I've seen either make it much, much too powerful (a la Wizard//Cleric) or don't do enough to help it keep up. Honestly, a slight bump in the power is probably needed, but it's hard to find a good homebrew of it.

14 levels would be fine, imo.

You'll also need Dragons of Eberron to get Loredrake.

[Quellian-dyrae]

You know, if your DM is open to rewriting it, I bet it wouldn't be too hard to make viable. I'd say...

Change HD to d6.

Make prerequisites: Knowledge (Arcana) 8 Ranks, Knowledge (Religion or Nature) 8 Ranks, Spellcraft 8 Ranks, Able to cast 3rd level Arcane spells, Feat: Practiced Spellcaster.

Give +1 effective casting level at every level but 1st and 5th.

At every level, let it add the next level of spells from a chosen divine class's spell list to your spell list (possibly include some sort of extra ruling to prevent abuse from warmage-style casters, or not as you feel balance deems). So, at first it could learn 0-level spells, second 1st level, third 2nd level, etc. It casts these spells as arcane spells.

At every even level, it doubles the number of base spells known and spells per day of the next spell level, starting with first.

At 5th level, it gets additional bonus spells from a high Wisdom modifier.

Capstone shouldn't be necessary as 10th level already gives you access to 9th level divine spells and doubled 5th level spells.

That should wind up giving you fairly similar benefits - lots of lower level spells, access to two spell lists - at the cost of delayed spell access and fewer higher-level spells, but without the extraneous penalties of MAD, not actually gaining 9th level spells in both schools without jumping through hoops, a period of levels where you are way behind in both classes, etc. If it's too powerful, it's easy enough to dock it another casting level.

[Snails]

It is a cool class.

IMO you basic MT suffers in the low to middling levels. You are entirely playable by any reasonable standard when you reach 12th and acquire your big pile of 5th level spells, if appropriately tactics are applied.

Your primarily problem is not really a lack of power -- you will have lots of useful spells at your fingertips, it is a lack of Actions during combat.

Where you do well is when (A) you have the opportunity to buff out your friends, and/or (B) combats drag out.

A implies you will do better with a party that can choose the time and place of their combats. Ideally you would buff and ambush your foes. That sounds obvious, everyone loves to ambush, right? But it does say helping out the party scout with Invisibility or having Clairvoyance handy will be extra valuable to you.

B is something can often be arranged. Well placed walls and fogs and Web can enhance the tactical options of your team while slowing down the offense of the other team. In fact, it is amazing how much difference delaying half the opposition for a single round can gain your friends. The effect gets even stronger when the party is larger.

[Grushvak]

The best way into it is as a Dragonwrought Kobold Sorcerer with greater draconic rite of passage. The end result of that is a character that casts as a Full sorcerer, (whatever divine class) (sorcerer-3). However, since this is made of truly stinky cheese, your DM will most likely throw things at you if you try it.

I'm sorry but I really don't see how Greater Draconic Rite of Passage allows you to do such a thing. It could theoretically allow you early entry into MT thanks to the extra sorcerer level, but the rite itself requires 6 HD, so you couldn't do it until Sorc 3 / Cleric 3. Which, as it turns out, is already the least optimized entry level for MT (no Precocious Apprentice cheesing).

Are you doing some creative reading of the GDRoP, or am I simply missing something obvious?

[Sliver]

Makes me wonder if this thread was made due to the other one, trying to prove to a troll fellow player that MT is a trap..

[Grushvak]

I feel that MT has always been sort of a hot topic on these boards. I blame Tsukiko.

[Sliver]

Like monks and that other class.. that didn't get a familiar.. never mind..

But I thought Precocious Apprentice doesn't work for early entry as it gives you a spell, not spells, and that it could be done with something like heighten spell and the feat that lets you combine spell slots to get a higher level spell slot..

[Kobold-Bard]

I'm sorry but I really don't see how Greater Draconic Rite of Passage allows you to do such a thing. It could theoretically allow you early entry into MT thanks to the extra sorcerer level, but the rite itself requires 6 HD, so you couldn't do it until Sorc 3 / Cleric 3. Which, as it turns out, is already the least optimized entry level for MT (no Precocious Apprentice cheesing).

Are you doing some creative reading of the GDRoP, or am I simply missing something obvious?

Loredrake gives 2 free levels of Sorcerer, i THINK GDRoP is just the icing on the cake (=bonus Free Sor level)

I feel that MT has always been sort of a hot topic on these boards. I blame Tsukiko.

And Tsusiko is a True Necromancer. She was never a Mystic Theurge, and ayone who says otherwise is GUILTY!!!

[Telonius]

I'm sorry but I really don't see how Greater Draconic Rite of Passage allows you to do such a thing. It could theoretically allow you early entry into MT thanks to the extra sorcerer level, but the rite itself requires 6 HD, so you couldn't do it until Sorc 3 / Cleric 3. Which, as it turns out, is already the least optimized entry level for MT (no Precocious Apprentice cheesing).

Are you doing some creative reading of the GDRoP, or am I simply missing something obvious?

The progression is: Sorc4/Cleric (or Druid, depending on how you want to progress it)3/MT 10.
1 Dragonwrought
3 Draconic reservoir
6 (whatever feat)

The three levels in Cleric don't count against your Sorcerer levels, since you have three effective levels of Sorcerer from Dragonwrought Loredrake and Greater Draconic Rite of Passage. Yes, the entry is slower, but you get a whole lot more out of it. At level 17, you're casting as a 17th-level Sorcerer and a 13th-level divine caster. (Mixed up my math on the previous post - should be -4, not -3). If you go Druid, you can progress that to Arcane Hierophant to get Sorc 20, Druid16. If Arcane Hierophant first (before Theurge), you end up as a dinosaur or a dire bear that can cast 9th-level Sorcerer spells and 8th-level Druid spells. (Also, you have a pet wolf that will eat whatever you don't). For maximum cheese, be Venerable (since you don't actually take aging penalties) to bump up all your mental stats.

The fact that you start out as a kobold to do it is just icing on the cake.

[Grushvak]

Loredrake gives 2 free levels of Sorcerer, i THINK GDRoP is just the icing on the cake (=bonus Free Sor level)

Thought as much. I hope everyone realizes that no sane DM would ever allow a dragonwrought kobold to be a loredrake, right?

And even if one does, it doesn't make MT more balanced as much as it makes sorcerers positively insane. Keep your Sorc 1 / Cleric 3 / MT 10, I'll be over here casting as a sorcerer 17 at level 14.

[Telonius]

Thought as much. I hope everyone realizes that no sane DM would ever allow a dragonwrought kobold to be a loredrake, right?

And even if one does, it doesn't make MT more balanced as much as it makes sorcerers positively insane. Keep your Sorc 1 / FavSoul 3 / MT 10, I'll be over here casting as a sorcerer 17 at level 14.

As I said, it is made of stinky, stinky cheese and the DM will throw things at you if you try it. But, RAW ...

[Grushvak]

As I said, it is made of stinky, stinky cheese and the DM will throw things at you if you try it. But, RAW ...

Yeah, I know what you meant. It's just kind of sad that the cheesiest thing you can do with a MT still ends up being suboptimal compared to other applications of said cheese.

[Ladorak]

Like monks and that other class.. that didn't get a familiar.. never mind..

But I thought Precocious Apprentice doesn't work for early entry as it gives you a spell, not spells, and that it could be done with something like heighten spell and the feat that lets you combine spell slots to get a higher level spell slot..

I'm told that a Q&A session ruled Precocious Apprentice doesn't work for early entry, even if combined with focused specialised or other methods of expanding that spell slot. I can't link to anything tho, so if your DM is cool with it, do it. It's legal cheating, and that's what D&Ds all about

[Pharaoh's Fist]

1. What's the quickest way into it?

I enjoy Wizard5/Mindbender1/Ur Priest 2/MT10/Something that gives full wizard casting 2.

Practiced Spellcaster on both sides.

Though, for a theurge-like character, I prefer a Chameleon.

[Lunawarrior0]

One interesting idea is that you could be a sorcerer and Favored Soul (from complete divine). A Favored Soul is to a cleric what a sorcerer is to a wizard. This makes you so that you are using charisma as the only stat that you need.

However, while I like this idea, I am not sure that it really works too well, as it just make the Mystic Theurge more of what it is: a lot of low level spells, but few high level ones.

[Zovc]

I enjoy Wizard5/Mindbender1/Ur Priest 2/MT10/Something that gives full wizard casting 2.

What does Ur-Priest get at levels 11 and 12?

[Grushvak]

What does Ur-Priest get at levels 11 and 12?

Nothing since there's no more advancement, but you already have level 9 spell slots at that point so... yeah. Ur-Priest is great for that.