[3.5] Shapechange for dummies, plz ?

[Johel]

Ok, the idea is the following :

For a campaign (that I expect to be short), I got to play a 20th level wizard who's the general of some freak army.

I don't plan to use the army itself much, except for various utility tasks. I've already opened a thread asking for the worst-yet-plausible cheese possible to show my DM that 20th level character, especially spellcasters, are not to lead a war against mortals who don't go beyond 10th level. The answers were satisfactory and can help to break a game.

I'm now searching a middle ground. Some tricks that, while cool and unusual, would still send a "-I warned you..." message to the DM.

And here I bumped into Shapechange

This spell functions like polymorph, except that it enables you to assume the form of any single nonunique creature (of any type) from Fine to Colossal size. The assumed form cannot have more than your caster level in Hit Dice (to a maximum of 25 HD). Unlike polymorph, this spell allows incorporeal or gaseous forms to be assumed.

• Any type can mean "including Outsider"...but that could also mean "including Undead" and I'm not sure it was what the developers intended. Any clue on that one ?

If Outsiders are ok, since the wizard is going to be Chaotic Good, I'm planning to shapechange into a Titan, blasting "Chain lightning", "Fire Storm" and "Greater dispel magic" at will while laughing like a mad man.

My concerns are :

You gain all extraordinary and supernatural abilities (both attacks and qualities) of the assumed form, but you lose your own supernatural abilities. You also gain the type of the new form in place of your own.

• Will I benefit from the Spell-like abilities of the Titan ? The "Shapechange" description looks like I will but I want to be sure, since the "Polymorph" description specifically excludes SLA.
• Will I still be able to cast prepared spells as a wizard ? The "Polymorph" description sends me to "Alter Self", which looks like I will but I want to be sure.
• Will I benefit from the SR of the Titan ? Again, I guess yes but if somebody can confirm/infirm, that would be nice.

You can change form once each round as a free action. The change takes place either immediately before your regular action or immediately after it, but not during the action.

• If I shapechange into a Titan in round 1, then use all the daily SLA, transform into something else, then back into a Titan, will the daily SLA be usable again ? Seems really cheesy to me but, hey, just want to be sure.
• Finally, any other non-evil creatures a 20th level wizard could shapechange into, just to benefit from cool at-will SLA ?

Thank you.

[Doc Roc]

It's pretty much widely accepted that the developers had literally no idea what they were doing re: 9th level spells.

Shapechange does indeed let you become undead.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Shapechange into a Choker. Free extra standard or move action each turn.

Shapechange into a Chronotryn (sp?) from the FC1. Free full round action each turn.

[Grushvak]

I still think you should go with the simulacrum factory on an accelerated time genesis plane made of platinum. You have to remember that you're not fighting NPC armies, you're going up against armies led by other level 20 players who just might be playing full casters as well. Even as a titan, you'll be vulnerable to many of their dirtier tricks.

[Gnaeus]

My concerns are :

[LIST][*]Will I benefit from the Spell-like abilities of the Titan ? The "Shapechange" description looks like I will but I want to be sure, since the "Polymorph" description specifically excludes SLA.

No. Spell Like abilities are in a different category from SU abilities. Some people claim, however, that caster levels are an (ex) ability, so Solar will give you 17 levels of cleric. I find that this makes DMs throw things.

[*]Will I still be able to cast prepared spells as a wizard ? The "Polymorph" description sends me to "Alter Self", which looks like I will but I want to be sure.

Yes, you can, as long as your form has limbs suitable for casting and can hold components.

[*]Will I benefit from the SR of the Titan ? Again, I guess yes but if somebody can confirm/infirm, that would be nice.

Yes. You get any Su or Ex abilities. SR is an Ex.

[Iku Rex]

Will I benefit from the Spell-like abilities of the Titan ?

No. "Supernatural ability" is a separate category from SLA.

Will I still be able to cast prepared spells as a wizard ?

Yes. The normal rules for spell components (S, V, M, F) apply.

Will I benefit from the SR of the Titan ? Again, I guess yes but if somebody can confirm/infirm, that would be nice.

Yes. SR is an extraordinary ability.

[*]If I shapechange into a Titan in round 1, then use all the daily SLA, transform into something else, then back into a Titan, will the daily SLA be usable again ? Seems really cheesy to me but, hey, just want to be sure.

As far as Su abilities go, I'm not sure. I'd say "no" if I was DMing.

[*]Finally, any other non-evil creatures a 20th level wizard could shapechange into, just to benefit from cool at-will SLA ?

Why non-evil?

Anyway, you don't get SLAs but you do get (Su) abilities. I'm sure there's a list somewhere. OTTOMH the avoral is a great way to get some quick healing(Lay on Hands). Also keep in mind that DR is usually (Su).

[olentu]

No. Spell Like abilities are in a different category from SU abilities. Some people claim, however, that caster levels are an (ex) ability, so Solar will give you 17 levels of cleric. I find that this makes DMs throw things.



Yes, you can, as long as your form has limbs suitable for casting and can hold components.



Yes. You get any Su or Ex abilities. SR is an Ex.

I think casting would be a natural ability.

[Gnaeus]

I agree with you. Its a RAW argument based on some monster in DMG 3 or 4 where some critter has its spellcasting listed an an EX. Lots of people on the boards will debate you if you say it isn't an Ex. I mostly just think it is cheesy and overpowered and wrong.

[Lysander]

If Outsiders are ok, since the wizard is going to be Chaotic Good, I'm planning to shapechange into a Titan, blasting "Chain lightning", "Fire Storm" and "Greater dispel magic" at will while laughing like a mad man.

My concerns are :

• Will I benefit from the Spell-like abilities of the Titan ? The "Shapechange" description looks like I will but I want to be sure, since the "Polymorph" description specifically excludes SLA.
• Will I still be able to cast prepared spells as a wizard ? The "Polymorph" description sends me to "Alter Self", which looks like I will but I want to be sure.
• Will I benefit from the SR of the Titan ? Again, I guess yes but if somebody can confirm/infirm, that would be nice.

There actually are a lot of restrictions you're overlooking. Supernatural abilities are not spell-like abilities. Shapechange wouldn't grant a Titan's Chain Lightning or other SLA, just their Change Shape ability.

Furthermore, you can't even turn into a Titan since outsiders are excluded (unless you already are another kind of outsider). Polymorph only grants the aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, and vermin types as options, and shapechange just adds gaseous and incorporeal to that list. I'd argue it doesn't allow you to turn into an undead creature since undead isn't one of the types it allows.

There doesn't seem to be any reason why you couldn't cast spells while shapechanged. Just remember, any possessions you can't wear or use meld into your body and become nonfunctional. That includes your spell component pouch. And you'd need a hand to make gestures with, and a mouth to speak the verbal component. So either pick your forms carefully or use metamagic.

It doesn't say anything about SR. I'd assume you just retain your own SR.

[Gnaeus]

Furthermore, you can't even turn into a Titan since outsiders are excluded (unless you already are another kind of outsider). Polymorph only grants the aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, and vermin types as options, and shapechange just adds gaseous and incorporeal to that list. I'd argue it doesn't allow you to turn into an undead creature since undead isn't one of the types it allows.

Shapechange (from the SRD)
This spell functions like polymorph, except that it enables you to assume the form of any single nonunique creature (of any type).

[mostlyharmful]

I agree with you. Its a RAW argument based on some monster in DMG 3 or 4 where some critter has its spellcasting listed an an EX. Lots of people on the boards will debate you if you say it isn't an Ex. I mostly just think it is cheesy and overpowered and wrong.

Or alternately Dragons, Angels, Nagas and Lillends among several others from the MM1... the core one... And it's listed as a special attack.... which Shapechange explicitly states. cheesy, yes... overpowered, well not really since you're stuck as that shape for the duration of your usage and castings so easy to get hold of long before 9th level spells... But wrong, definitely not.

[Gnaeus]

Or alternately Dragons, Angels, Nagas and Lillends among several others from the MM1... the core one... And it's listed as a special attack.... which Shapechange explicitly states. cheesy, yes... overpowered, well not really since you're stuck as that shape for the duration of your usage and castings so easy to get hold of long before 9th level spells... But wrong, definitely not.

Shapechange explicitly states you get special attacks IF they are Ex or Su. MM1 DOES NOT list a little Ex by casting.

Overpowered, yes. Adding 17 levels of Cleric to a level 17 wizard at cost of 1 spell in addition to a bunch of other benefits is overpowered.

Wrong. Clearly not what was intended by the spell. Clearly broken. If someone tried this in a game I would probably forbid them from playing a Sorcerer/wizard at all.

[Johel]

Thank you everyone.

No SLA means the spell is a lot less open to abuse but still fun.

The SR, damage reduction, and the Hit points of the Titan are still a nice improvement for my squishy wizard. If I can still cast spells and use the staff and wands, I'm good to go.

I still think you should go with the simulacrum factory on an accelerated time genesis plane made of platinum. You have to remember that you're not fighting NPC armies, you're going up against armies led by other level 20 players who just might be playing full casters as well. Even as a titan, you'll be vulnerable to many of their dirtier tricks.

Oh but I will try, don't worry... It's just that I'd rather keep the big guns in reserve, just in case the DM has a dirtier plan than I think.

[Grushvak]

Oh but I will try, don't worry... It's just that I'd rather keep the big guns in reserve, just in case the DM has a dirtier plan than I think.

Play with them a bit, give them some false hopes by never showing even 10% of your true power, then completely obliterate them when you get bored? It reeks of I Am Not Left Handed. I like it.

Just make sure you send a Simulacrum of yourself, or have enough contingencies set up so you never put yourself at risk while you pretend to fight fair.

Or, even better, take direct control of a solar simulacrum riding a tarrasque simulacrum, and have them believe it's your character. They'll crap their pants the minute they realize you have 87 bazillion more of these in store.

EDIT: If you really want to go at them with your character, you could use Astral Projection and leave your physical body on your genesis plane, protected by your army.

[Gnaeus]

The SR, damage reduction, and the Hit points of the Titan are still a nice improvement for my squishy wizard. If I can still cast spells and use the staff and wands, I'm good to go.

I'm pretty sure you keep your own Hit Points, since it works like Polymorph. You better find and print a copy of the polymorph errata while you are at it.

[Superglucose]

Persisted Shapechange? Does Incantatrix allow this?

[shadow_archmagi]

Shapechange into a Choker. Free extra standard or move action each turn.

Shapechange into a Chronotryn (sp?) from the FC1. Free full round action each turn.

The other day I ran a Choker encounter for my players (they enjoyed the strangulation of their characters.)

I was like "Gosh? Extra actions? What's the LA on a choker PC?"

and now you've given me the perfect way to abuse it

[Claudius Maximus]

Interestingly, the Choker does not have Swiftness in the later printings of the 3.5 Monster Manual. Mine doesn't have it, for one. I think it may have been removed by some erratum or otherwise changed.

[Eldariel]

Interestingly, the Choker does not have Swiftness in the later printings of the 3.5 Monster Manual. Mine doesn't have it, for one. I think it may have been removed by some erratum or otherwise changed.

It's on the SRD so if it was changed, it was retroactively added back; SRD has the latest version.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Persisted Shapechange? Does Incantatrix allow this?

And much much more!

[Da'Shain]

Sorry to bump this, but I just have a quick question: if shapechange can change you into an undead, and you gain all Ex and Su qualities, does that mean you can shapechange into a demilich (if you have 21 HD, of course) to get magic immunity and trap the soul special abilities (Ex and Su, respectively)?

It seems pretty straightforward, except for this little nugget:

This spell functions like polymorph, except that it enables you to assume the form of any single nonunique creature (of any type) from Fine to Colossal size.]

I had an argument with a fellow player about this, and his argument was basically that no demilich is "nonunique" because they're not random monsters naturally (or pseudonaturally or w/e) occurring, but spellcasters who've become liches and progressed to such an epic level that their personalities must be ridiculously unique. I kind of agree with that, but using that logic pretty much any monster isn't "nonunique" because they're all different. Like snowflakes.

So is there an official ruling on that, or is it pretty much up to the DM?

[Prime32]

Demilich is a template, not a standalone race, so you can't turn into one.

[Da'Shain]

Oh, really? I figured if there was a stat block for it and it didn't have a name, it was pretty much fair game. Oh well, guess I'll just stick to golems for magic immunity.