What on earth does gesalt mean?

[Gamerlord]

So, I'm a experienced D&D played, but I keep seeing the following term thrown around.

Gesalt.

WHAT DOES IT MEAN?

[Boci]

Unearthed arcane, dual progression of two classes, gaining the better of each. Gestalt characters are rarely compatable with non-gestalt characters.

[jokey665]

Here you go.

[Doc Roc]

In actual practice? Unless you are a closely-knit group with a good GM, it means Time-To-Go.

[Myrmex]

In actual practice? Unless you are a closely-knit group with a good GM, it means Time-To-Go.

Elaborate.

[Boci]

Elaborate.

I think he measn that with base classes already unbalanced, it is practically impossible to keep a cap on the power differences between different characters, hence the need for a close knit group.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Elaborate.

It's easy to break. You can get any number of things that aren't supposed to be combined, like Factotum 8 and full spellcasting, and it's harder to balance, meaning the DM needs to work harder and make more endurance runs. That said, I'm a fan of it, you can build any number of difficult concepts, even for less experienced players, and it can be used to make weaker classes(Fighter, Monk etc) viable.

[Justyn]

In terms of D&D, Gestalt means taking two classes at the same time, each level.

"Gestalt" is also a German word meaning "form" or "shape", but in English refers to a group of things that take on a unified whole.

[Myrmex]

It's easy to break.

Welcome to D&D 3e.

[Boci]

Welcome to D&D 3e.

Even more so when you have two classes instead of one.

[starwoof]

I prefer to run gestalt games. It encourages more variety among characters, I've found. Stronger characters also means I can be a lot meaner with the encounters and not feel bad about it.

Bipedal ice paraelemental combat reflexes glaive wielding ankylosauruses, tralala...

[Myrmex]

Even more so when you have two classes instead of one.

Even more so when you have players without self control.

[Tackyhillbillu]

Even more so when you have two classes instead of one.

If you are chain gating Solars while in Time Stop, doesn't matter if you are Gestalt or not.

[Zincorium]

Gestalt, when combined with the recommended use of higher CR monsters, is very rewarding.

The maximum level of any ability is the same (except for a few broken things that shouldn't be allowed for a gestalt game). That is to say, at 5th level, a wizard//rogue still only has 3rd level spells and 3d6 sneak attack. But the cool bit is that they get both instead of having 2nd level spells and 1d6 sneak attack as a wizard 3/rogue 2.

There is no official rule for how level adjustment and racial hit dice work in gestalt- personally, I've found that placing them on opposite 'sides' of the gestalt, i.e. Monstrous humanoid 4//LA 2/barbarian 2 for a centaur barbarian, gives equivalent class features to two actual classes, and it can make monster characters more accesable.

Others feel that this is overpowering, and have LA, and possibly racial hit dice, on it's own for a particular level. Thus, a Drow Wizard 1//rogue 1 would be considered equivalent to a human wizard 3//rogue 3.

[BobVosh]

Others feel that this is overpowering, and have LA, and possibly racial hit dice, on it's own for a particular level. Thus, a Drow Wizard 1//rogue 1 would be considered equivalent to a human wizard 3//rogue 3.

Ewwwwwwwww. As if LA/HD weren't bad enough. Doubled in a game with much, much better other classes?

[Lycanthromancer]

Ewwwwwwwww. As if LA/HD weren't bad enough. Doubled in a game with much, much better other classes?

I'm definitely with you on that one.

And on that note, I managed to make good use of LA in a game that was done that way.

The DM considers kobolds (not the updated ones, the ones from the Monster Manual) to be LA -1, so he offered me a free +1 LA template. For free. Which didn't count against my ECL. For free.

For free.

I went necropolitan kobold, and took evolved undead as my template.

This. Is. Awesome. Even in a gestalt game.

[Milskidasith]

I'm definitely with you on that one.

And on that note, I managed to make good use of LA in a game that was done that way.

The DM considers kobolds (not the updated ones, the ones from the Monster Manual) to be LA -1, so he offered me a free +1 LA template. For free. Which didn't count against my ECL. For free.

For free.

I went necropolitan kobold, and took evolved undead as my template.

This. Is. Awesome. Even in a gestalt game.

Circle of Death at level 1 (assuming you picked that as your SLA)? That's... pretty awesome.

[Zincorium]

Nice, you're like the world's smallest dracolich. Except better. But I do have to opine that negative LA is a terrible idea, only somewhat worse than regular LA.

First game in gestalt I ever played I was a gray orc/mummified template/psychic warrior//monk. This was when I learned firsthand that monks kind of suck, as even first level powers dramatically enhanced my abilities. I was actually pretty balanced with the vampire/rogue//soulknife.

And the wizard/red wizard//archivist/lich? Yeah, we were his henchmen. There was really no pretending otherwise past level 9.

[Myrmex]

Circle of Death at level 1 (assuming you picked that as your SLA)? That's... pretty awesome.

Also against the rules.

[Milskidasith]

Also against the rules.

Ah, I don't have the book handy. What are the rules with Evolved Undead and what SLA you can pick, again?

[Myrmex]

Ah, I don't have the book handy. What are the rules with Evolved Undead and what SLA you can pick, again?

Any that you could cast with your HD = CL. Which means none of the SLAs, as they all require a CL of at least 5.

[Lycanthromancer]

Circle of Death at level 1 (assuming you picked that as your SLA)? That's... pretty awesome.

He's a positive energy undead (basically, negative energy and positive energy treat him in exactly the opposite ways that they normally would). Since he's positive energy based, the DM is giving him some sort of life-sense/undeath-sense that gives him a version of always-on pastiche of true seeing and blindsight that isn't quite as strong as either one but can do similar things...

...which is awesome.

Nice, you're like the world's smallest dracolich. Except better. But I do have to opine that negative LA is a terrible idea, only somewhat worse than regular LA.

Well, I could've been more abusive, but I wanted a necropolitan kobold, and I picked evolved undead specifically for the fast healing (because dying when you're effectively 1st level due to necropolitanism sucks).

But yes, I like my little mini-dracolich very much.

Too bad his best-friend/boyfriend has kind of dumped him because he doesn't like the fact that he's an undead abomination. Poor guy. Still Chaotic Good but nobody believes him.

[Ravens_cry]

Ugh,I hate positive energy undead. Negative Energy, to me anyway, is simply an alien elan vital. The various oddities of various negative energy undead, blood drinking, brain hunger, rot and decay, are simply a symptom of that alieness, and the incompatibilities with the mortal frame. But positive energy undead are a literal perversion of the forces of Life. Much more Evil in my opinion.
On the subject of gestalt, I like how it allows otherwise unusual or/and weak, concepts to be much more effective. I want to play a old granny curmudgeon martial artist with a keen knowledge of healing like Cologne from Ranma 1/2, but going simply multiclass cleric/monk would mean losing too many caster levels for my liking for the possible benefit.

[PhoenixRivers]

I would like to point out that Evolved Undead in a Gestalt game is rather unethical.

It's like putting War Hulk on one side, and Full BAB on the other... Except with magic. Cause anyone taking it is going for sorceror or wilder or the like on the other side...

[Zincorium]

Unethical is a bit strong of a word.

I do think that evolved undead should definitely have it's LA reviewed whether the game is gestalt or not, and war hulk is on many people's ban-lists for the very reason you describe- but it's still not nearly as broken as many straight 20//20 combos that are around.

[PhoenixRivers]

Unethical is a bit strong of a word.

I do think that evolved undead should definitely have it's LA reviewed whether the game is gestalt or not, and war hulk is on many people's ban-lists for the very reason you describe- but it's still not nearly as broken as many straight 20//20 combos that are around.

The main difference is in application.

When you have to choose between powering your spells and powering your DC's, it's a rough choice, and +1 is more or less alright. Even melee, lose out on a critical low point for undead... HP.

No, out of gestalt, it's fine.

In gestalt, it's: Take your spellcasting progression, Str, Natural Armor, SLA's, AND +1 DC to all spells per level.

So a level 10 Sorceror, with his level 5 spells (assuming 18 Cha, +2 stat increases, and a +2 item) has Saving throw DC's around 26.

Level 20, with 3 more stat increases, +5 inherent, and a +6 item?
DC 41.

Not to mention at level 20? Bonus spells to the effect of:
8/8/8/8/7/7/7/7/6

Which, is practically another full set of spells.

Now, add in Sorceror Action economy to that? And the single class character will be able to blow right through most gestalt saves like tissue paper. Using an incorporeal type-spell (or shapechange), they can even get it to saving throws, AC, and more.

It was never designed to apply to casters. When it is, for essentially free, it's absolutely broken... and a good portion of it is its text that explicitly states that it stacks with itself and can be applied more than once.

[PinkysBrain]

There is no official rule for how level adjustment and racial hit dice work in gestalt- personally, I've found that placing them on opposite 'sides' of the gestalt, i.e. Monstrous humanoid 4//LA 2/barbarian 2 for a centaur barbarian, gives equivalent class features to two actual classes, and it can make monster characters more accesable.

Others feel that this is overpowering, and have LA, and possibly racial hit dice, on it's own for a particular level. Thus, a Drow Wizard 1//rogue 1 would be considered equivalent to a human wizard 3//rogue 3.

Personally I think halfway strikes the balance.

Halved LA on both sides, rounded up, RHD on one side and LA buyoff.

[Closak]

Let's just put it this way.

Level 30 Sorceror/Cleric Gesalt=OMGWTFBBQ!?

That made for one crazy strong BBEG i tell you.



Also, Gesalt with THREE CLASSES instead of two.
Ended up with a level 4 Fighter/Ranger/Rogue NPC antagonist that was a real pain to deal with at lower levels.

[mostlyharmful]

Let's just put it this way.

Level 30 Sorceror/Cleric Gesalt=OMGWTFBBQ!?

That made for one crazy strong BBEG i tell you.



Also, Gesalt with THREE CLASSES instead of two.
Ended up with a level 4 Fighter/Ranger/Rogue NPC antagonist that was a real pain to deal with at lower levels.

trouble is that by that time the DnD engines come apart at the seems, epic, gestalt and even three way gestalt... you've left behind anything like 3.5 and are essentially homebrewing a low level Rifts game... ish....

[Gamerlord]

Thank you so much, that question has been bugging me for MONTHS.