[3.5] Magi-Psi Transparency

[arguskos]

Would it be terribly unfair if there WAS no such transparency, based on setting rules? Basically, assume there isn't such a transparency. What happens? Is this reasonable? Will it cause any problems, other than there being two very unique and highly different power sources in the world?

Note: this is not a "which is better" question, but a question of "are there any glaring issues with them mixing in a world where they don't nullify one another".

[Random NPC]

I can only think that as long as there's a specific spell that disrupts Psionics (like dispell magic) and a specific power that disrupts Magic, you are good to go

Then again is late at night and I can't think of anything else

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Would it be terribly unfair if there WAS no such transparency, based on setting rules? Basically, assume there isn't such a transparency. What happens? Is this reasonable? Will it cause any problems, other than there being two very unique and highly different power sources in the world?

Note: this is not a "which is better" question, but a question of "are there any glaring issues with them mixing in a world where they don't nullify one another".

Don't do it!

[arguskos]

Don't do it!

Why? If there's something I don't know as to why this is a bad idea, please, enlighten me.

[Kantolin]

The one problem that comes to mind is anti-magic fields. Or, as another note, cerebremancers setting up an antimagic field while flying and shooting psi-lazers out of it.

Beyond that, it actually doesn't seem as bad as people make it out to be, but I'm also relatively new to psionics, so there may be things I haven't noted.

[arguskos]

The one problem that comes to mind is anti-magic fields. Or, as another note, cerebremancers setting up an antimagic field while flying and shooting psi-lazers out of it.

Beyond that, it actually doesn't seem as bad as people make it out to be, but I'm also relatively new to psionics, so there may be things I haven't noted.

Hey, cerebremancers. That's... a good point. That could be an issue. I might have to look into if they need to be restricted or not. Thanks for catching that one.

[Waylor]

Its ok as long as you dont use it to punish your players, example:

Rogue: Ok, no traps
Wizard: Ill cast detect magic anyway just to make sure
Dm: Nothing, looks safe
*Party enters*
Dm: Bam!! Psionic desintegrate to everyone!
Party:

My group doesnt use the transparency rule, but psionics are something very rare in my campaign, they just explored an abandoned psionic city and it worked nice.

[Knaight]

The biggest problem is spell and power resistance. Specifically the absurd boost psionic characters get against magic beings, and magic characters get against psionic beings. Anti-magic and anti-psionic fields are of minimal importance relative to that.

It could work, but there would need to be a lot of careful rebalancing. An easy method is simply to have a static difference between the two(say 8), and increase one by 4 for each monster, while decreasing the other. If intelligence is greater than charisma, higher psionic resistance, if charisma is greater than intelligence higher magic resistance, if they are equal, same value.

[Lycanthromancer]

It partially depends on how widespread both are. If there's only a handful of psions and psychic warriors in the world, and the rest of the world is full of mages, protections against magic will be rampant, while the same for psionics will be more or less null, meaning the psionic characters will be incredibly difficult to resist. The reverse is also true when magic is rare and psionics is common.

If magic and psionics are both common then it'll strain the party's resources because they'll have to put out double the money to protect against both (rather than just one transparent psi/magic grouping).

The only reasonably fair way for total magic/psionics nontransparency is for both to be incredibly rare and difficult to find and use. This, however, has considerable problems, as 3.5 wasn't meant for low-magic play (or psionics, as the case may be).

There are lots of problems with magic/psi nontransparency, including SR not affecting psionics (which will likely be encountered most often), and PR not affecting magic (which, given the notable overall lack of creatures with PR, this won't be as much of an issue).

Also, if they don't interact at all, that means you can have a +1/+1 flaming burst/icy burst/shocking burst/ghost touch/spell storing/thundering/collision/psychokinetic burst/suppression/lucky/dissipating/power storing greatsword for the cost of two +10 greatswords, because the psionic enhancement won't affect the magical enhancements and vice versa, but they'll still affect enemies just fine.

^That^ is the kind of unintended consequences you have to deal with if you make magic and psionics nontransparent. I hope you're ready to deal with that kind of stuff all the time (because it'll probably happen all the time).

Much better just to make the flavor different, and leave the mechanics the same. After all, psionics is as different from arcane magic as divine magic is, and you never see arcane/divine nontransparency.

[Milskidasith]

Basically, Mages and Psions all play rocket tag, or cross class buy UPD/UMD to get anti-whatever protections and then cast with ease. Permanent AMF on the Psion is pricey, but when you get to take out the entirety of spellcasters (for the most part), then it's well worth the cost as an item.

Getting rid of the transparency just means the party needs to spend twice as much to be protected as well as normal, and enemy spellcasters/psions can go around in APFs/AMFs and make half of your players suck.

[arguskos]

So, the assumption is that players/the DM will automatically become ***** and do the one thing to screw over the other folks? That's fair, and probably, the logical extension of the issue. If, for some reason, such immunities could not be acquired, would there STILL be an issue?

Also, assume the idea of SR/PR being similar values, and always granted together, as the XPH suggests as a variant, is in play. If so, does THIS change anything?

Remember, this is a thought experiment only, and I'm just collating data, as they say. Also, thanks for your suggestions and thoughts so far. It's very helpful for shaping my thoughts, esp your post, Lycanthromancer.

[erikun]

A lot of the defenses setup to prevent wizard from killing high CR targets (including other wizards) generally relies on resisting spells. Having no PR or power immunities means that the difference between a level 15 fighter and a CR 25 Great Wyrm is only a matter of several dozen HP.

It also encourages rocket launcher tag, as if you can no longer defend yourself, the most practical solution is to kill the opposition as quickly as possible.

[Milskidasith]

So, the assumption is that players/the DM will automatically become ***** and do the one thing to screw over the other folks? That's fair, and probably, the logical extension of the issue. If, for some reason, such immunities could not be acquired, would there STILL be an issue?

Yes: Psions and Wizards are well defended against themselves, and play rocket tag against each other. You can't dispel their buffs, you can't be immune to their attacks, etc. At lower levels, it's the same as normal, but at higher levels no wizard is going to want to buff if there is even a chance a psion could be there.

Also, assume the idea of SR/PR being similar values, and always granted together, as the XPH suggests as a variant, is in play. If so, does THIS change anything?

That would help, although not with the issue that buffs and magic items become twice as expensive (in terms of cash and action economy).

It's a bad idea.

[PhoenixRivers]

The problem is that it creates a situation where players must spend twice the resources defending from tactics, in many cases.

Entire build concepts become marginalized (counterspeller/dispellers, for example).

In short, it radically alters the landscape. Use with caution.

[arguskos]

So... what I'm hearing now is that hit point damage suddenly becomes viable? If SR/PR are the same thing (let's call it Effect Resistance), and blasting is now suddenly better, what's the issue here?

If we remove those blanket immunities and make SR/PR the same effect, what happens? Blasting is now a viable alternative to battlefield control when mages and psions meet and battlefield control isn't lessened in the least. Sounds like not much of an issue to me.

Also, can someone explain to me how SR/PR being granted at the same time equates to twice as many resources being spent (granted, I added that in a later post, and it may have been missed)? Saves still are useful, SR/PR are the same thing. It DOES negate counterspelling/countering powers, which is a good point, Phoenix. That's something I'd need to address.

Have I made any incorrect links in my chain of logic above? If so, what and how do I fix them?

[Milskidasith]

So... what I'm hearing now is that hit point damage suddenly becomes viable? If SR/PR are the same thing (let's call it Effect Resistance), and blasting is now suddenly better, what's the issue here?

It's not that blasting is better, it's that defensive options are no longer worth it. It cost twice as much to defend against things and many defensive buffs are entirely useless (Mind Blank?)

If we remove those blanket immunities and make SR/PR the same effect, what happens? Blasting is now a viable alternative to battlefield control when mages and psions meet and battlefield control isn't lessened in the least. Sounds like not much of an issue to me.

Removing blanket immunities is A: going to be extremely tough without making certain spells useless, and B: still not going to make blasting better than casting no save just die spells, because you can do that without getting blocked by defenses.

Even if I can't think of all the possible issues right now, removing all blanket immunities and making psions and wizards able to one shot each other with immunities will still have the basic issue that all that matters is initiative and/or celerity and that psionic readied action power cheese.

[arguskos]

If so, is there a way to fix this? If so, what does it entail? I don't care what level of effort is required, I just want to know the steps involved in making it so transparency is no longer required.

[Milskidasith]

If so, is there a way to fix this? If so, what does it entail? I don't care what level of effort is required, I just want to know the steps involved in making it so transparency is no longer required.

The best way of making transparency no longer required is to make every power that stops powers and every spell that stops spells and making them into a power/spell that affects spells/powers. Basically, you just double the number of spells/powers that relate to stopping other spells/powers. So basically, Spell Immunity would get a new version, Power Immunity and such. That only gets a little bit of the work done, though.

[BobVosh]

If so, is there a way to fix this? If so, what does it entail? I don't care what level of effort is required, I just want to know the steps involved in making it so transparency is no longer required.

Redesign every monster with spells and/or psionics, a few spells, and most powers. Anything that has SR should have PR if appropriate. The defenses against the various powers and spells. Create and price various items that are done with psionics, like PR enhancement for armor that echos SR.

[Lycanthromancer]

The best way of making transparency no longer required is to make every power that stops powers and every spell that stops spells and making them into a power/spell that affects spells/powers. Basically, you just double the number of spells/powers that relate to stopping other spells/powers. So basically, Spell Immunity would get a new version, Power Immunity and such. That only gets a little bit of the work done, though.

And once again we hit the "it takes twice as much to do the same thing" thing. So you have wizards that can only prep half as many dispel magics because half of them have to go toward dispel psionics. And you need twice the mind blanks and twice the freedom of movements and twice the true seeings.

And the fighter has to buy twice the number of items to avoid getting gimped.

And so on.

And the DM has to give the monsters twice the potions and scrolls and abilities just to deal with both types of abilities, because otherwise they'd get stomped by the side they didn't prep for.

This definitely makes cerebremancers a lot more powerful, for sure.

[Sliver]

Would such things me more affordable to the players in a gestalt game?

[Lycanthromancer]

Would such things me more affordable to the players in a gestalt game?

Well, everyone could afford to take levels in both psionic and magic classes, so yes. However, it does rather limit which classes can be taken.

A swordsage//barbarian doesn't have any more gold to spend than a swordsage or barbarian of equivalent level, and doesn't have any class abilities that would help overmuch against both.

Plus, he's likely to be fighting higher level enemies, which are considerably more dangerous if he's not as well prepped for whichever kind of abilities that creature has because of nontransparency.

[PhoenixRivers]

Defenses:

Dispel Magic doesn't protect against Psionics and vice versa.

Mind Blank and their psion equivalent are worthless against their opposing type.

Yes, the basics: AC/Touch AC/Saves/HP/SR?? That's all unchanged.

But spells that protect? Now only protect halfway.

[Sliver]

Well, everyone could afford to take levels in both psionic and magic classes, so yes. However, it does rather limit which classes can be taken.

A swordsage//barbarian doesn't have any more gold to spend than a swordsage or barbarian of equivalent level, and doesn't have any class abilities that would help overmuch against both.

Plus, he's likely to be fighting higher level enemies, which are considerably more dangerous if he's not as well prepped for whichever kind of abilities that creature has because of nontransparency.

What items did the would have bought that are specifically anti-magic that won't work now against Psionics?

Also, if you give monsters both psi-protection and magic-protection but the players don't get it for free, you are upping their CR. So while normally they would fight higher CR monsters, the same monsters they would have been fighting before gestalt, are now higher CR. So they still fight the same monsters.

[Kantolin]

You know, I actually still don't understand a lot of the counterpoints listed here.

I mean. If your defense against magic is to boost your saves or touch AC, you can still do that. If your defense is to boost your stats, you can still do that. If your defense is Celerity shenanigans, nothing stops you from doing that either.

If your defense is globe of invulnerability, then you can't do that anymore, but that's not exactly an all-encompassing spell itself.

The main thing it seems to stop is 'I ready a dispel magic to counterspell'. In which you can still ready a fireball or energy vortex for when they cast a spell (or just smack them with it), or use your save-or-suck spells/powers, or whatever. Not a really big deal.

The two things that probably have to really be looked at are:
- It stops spell resistance and power resistance from being as all-encompassing. This may or may not be alright, depending, but is easily fixed.

- Anti-Magic Field Cerebremancer shenanigans.

Otherwise, eh? Spells that specifically say 'spells' and powers that specifically say 'powers' don't function as well, but those aren't all that common.

Protection from evil states 'Second, the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature', which is the reason most people use it. That would work against a psionic effect as well due to not specifying spells.

Mind blank is 'The subject is protected from all devices and spells that detect, influence, or read emotions or thoughts. This spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects'. Again, 'all devices', 'all effects'.

So at least, I'm not seeing the huge 'spend twice as much on defenses' problem. Trying to get a high touch AC stops (certain) psions and wizards, trying to get a high will saves stops (certain) psions and wizards, trying to have evasion stops (certain) psions and wizards... trying to get globe of invulnerability doesn't (And it doesn't stop spell-like abilities either, so you have to watch there).

Meh. Doesn't seem like it takes too much effort to get transparency to work fine. If you're worried about dispelling, make dispel magic/psionics an exception or sommat.

[dsmiles]

Personally, I use the Psionics is Different rule. As long as your players know that this rule is in play, there should be no problem. You just have to get them thinking about all of the different ways. The rule is explained in the EPH and (I believe) in the 3.0 Psionics Handbook. There are also spells in the back of the EPH that can help deal with the non-transparency of Psionics and Magic.

[PhoenixRivers]

[QUOTE=Kantolin;7452255]I mean. If your defense against magic is to boost your saves or touch AC, you can still do that. If your defense is to boost your stats, you can still do that. If your defense is Celerity shenanigans, nothing stops you from doing that either.

If your defense is globe of invulnerability, then you can't do that anymore, but that's not exactly an all-encompassing spell itself.[/spoiler]Good defenses are layered.

This prevents any spell that protects from a specific type of effect(nondetection, mind blank, death ward) from working on any psionics.

Now you have someone who blew a good amount of spells on Mindblank, that still has to roll against a level 1 psionic charm. So he needs to double up on those defenses. This creates more defenses to keep track of, which increases the complexity of everything. Not always ideal.

The main thing it seems to stop is 'I ready a dispel magic to counterspell'. In which you can still ready a fireball or energy vortex for when they cast a spell (or just smack them with it), or use your save-or-suck spells/powers, or whatever. Not a really big deal.

Except that a dispel magic is infinitely more versatile, and more likely to stop a casting to boot.

The two things that probably have to really be looked at are:
- It stops spell resistance and power resistance from being as all-encompassing. This may or may not be alright, depending, but is easily fixed.

- Anti-Magic Field Cerebremancer shenanigans.

There's more than this, as the other issues are being handwaved by you as unimportant. Counterspell/Dispellers are an entire build concept. Make psionics different, and you take 90% of the builds out there and throw them in the trash. Because the best Dispel Magic in the world won't do a thing to the psion flying around burning the party, even though functionally, it's the same thing.

Meh. Doesn't seem like it takes too much effort to get transparency to work fine. If you're worried about dispelling, make dispel magic/psionics an exception or sommat.

Limited differences? There's a potential for that.

But the printed Psi/Mag different rules? You might as well throw your game on a sword.

[sonofzeal]

There's really only a few categories where Transparency applies...


1) SR/PR. Definitely keep these the same. If they're different, Psi gets a huge power boost and earns the resentment of the arcane casters unless there's a relatively large number of PR creatures. Note that almost nothing in any of the MM books has PR. You'd have to do a lot of houseruling or vastly limit your monster choices to make this work without transparency.

2) Antimagic/Nullpsionic. Without transparency, it's a huge advantage to the other side. This is easier for the DM to handle, as he just has to throw a balanced mix at the party and let the party throw what they want. As previously mentioned, this gives a great boost if one side can activate Antimagic while packing a heavy Psi punch, whether damage or SoL. Cerebremancers rejoice.

3) Psicraft/Spellcraft. Mostly just a flavour thing, can be there or discarded at your leisure.

4) Crafting. Transparency here is a boost to Psi, as Craft Wondrous Item is miles ahead of Craft Universal Item, and any Psion ever is going to need a whole pile of magical items (Headband of Int, Cloak of Resist, etc). A lack of Transparency here effectively removes "party crafter" from the list of roles the Psion can fill. If he wasn't going to fill it anyway, it's not a big deal though.

5) Misc items, like Cognizance Crystals and Robes of the Archmagi and Orange Ioun Stones. Mostly just a convenience thing, but convenience is nice. Transparency here simplifies loot and sharing of gear, and helps equalize the wealth of the party a bit if the Psion and the Wizard can choose who gets what rather than sharing.

6) Misc spells. You've got Sphere of Invulnerability, Spell Immunity, and a bunch of others that help protect against spells. You also have a bunch of awkwardly-worded ones that were written assuming magic and would have to be re-read word by word to see if they still function against psionics. Psi powers are usually much more explicit on this front; compare the wording of the arcane and psionic versions of Mind Blank. I'm pretty sure both work the same way, but the psi is far more clear about it. Anyway, if spell-protection effects don't protect against Psi, that's a big boost, as psi-protection effects are usually a lot more careful about what they protect from and this can lead to imbalances. It also leads, as previously noted, to rocket tag.



So, which elements of transparency are you thinking of discarding?

[Voidhawk]

My current DM's world has no Magi-Psi transparency at ALL, to the extent that we've had interesting debates over whether mage armour would work, let alone spells that shield your mind...

However, the reason that this works fine is next to nobody in the world knows how psionics work: there are no psions, and certainly no cerebramancers, hanging around to make double defensives necesscary.

But when you come across a psionic monster, like an Illithid? It turns them and every other psionic monster into the freaking bogey-man for the world. They're alien, they're incomprehensible, and they cut straight through your protections like it means nothing.

Illithids TERRIFY us

If we see them (as we do, being in the underdark and all) we tend to resort to OHGODOHGODOHGOD KILL-IT! KILL-IT!! KILL-IT!!!
Drow don't like being denied their SR.

(As an aside, on her world the Illithids and other psionics come from a different planet, and crashed in their psion-jammer spaceship millions of years ago. There's also one freindly psionic lizard-woman, who came from the planet in her own spaceship quite recently, and is very suprised to discover what to her are effectively dinosaurs running about! She also keeps getting mistaken for a demon...)

[dsmiles]

I like the way that sounds. Sounds like a very darkscary campaign world.