Is WOTC going to stat EVERYTHING in 4th edition?

[Mystic Muse]

honestly. I think they're going to. we already have stats for Orcus, Dispater, Grazz't, Bahamut, Tiamat, Vecna, Demogorgon and Dagon.

Is WOTC on the track of statting every single god and demon lord in the game for 4th edition Or am I just crazy? or both?

is there anything that they haven't statted that you'd LIKE to see statted?

[BobVosh]

Why not?10 characters

[erikun]

Why not?

Because they killed a bunch of them. Poor, poor Eilistraee....

[Dixieboy]

Because they killed a bunch of them. Poor, poor Eilistraee....

Killing her off might have been the only good move they made lore-wise in 4th edition.

[Mando Knight]

They did it last edition. See books like the Fiendish Codex and Deities and Demigods. Probably only dead powers won't have any stats... and that's only if they don't get them from some adventure where they come back.

[F.H. Zebedee]

It's a bit of a shame to see deities and such fully statted on the page, since that kinda... Well, it takes the mystique out of them. I prefer making the DM wing it, though I'm a homebrew heavy DM, so I'll admit a large ammount of bias there.

Of course, the dial playable level cap does go up to eleven thirty now, though, so that's probably part of it.

[jmbrown]

This isn't anything new. Deities have been given stats since AD&D because it's fun to kill them. Gygax statted out Cthulhu among other real world deities from various cultures.

[Dixieboy]

This isn't anything new. Deities have been given stats since AD&D because it's fun to kill them. Gygax statted out Cthulhu among other real world deities from various cultures.

All knowing = How much INT?

[BobVosh]

Cthulu isn't all knowing. Or, for that matter, a deity. Just a high priest.

Also all knowing is all knowledges at like 300. You know everything worth knowing at that point.

[jmbrown]

All knowing = How much INT?

Nah, he only has IQ 20 which is "supra-genius" in AD&D terms. 21+ is god-like (which is laughable in 3E).

Cthulhu is probably the weakest "greater god" in the Deities and Demigods' Cthulhu Mythos section. You want a real fight? Hop on a Spelljammer and see if you can take on Azathoth. What's that? You approach within 1,000 miles of him? Make a save every round or go insane.

Still, if it has stats it can be killed.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Still, if it has stats it can be killed.

That's technically true in D&D, but not in all systems. Call of Cthulhu, for example (although I'm pretty sure they had the sense not to stat Azathoth or Yog-Sothoth. Everyone below those two though...)

Anyway, D&D's been doing this since Advanced. It's hardly anything new or surprising. It's just how high-level D&D is expected to work.

I will murder someone if they ever stat out the Eberron Soveriegn Host/Dark Six deities, though. I don't care if it means the people in other settings don't think they exist, being able to question their existence is the point.

[jmbrown]

That's technically true in D&D, but not in all systems. Call of Cthulhu, for example (although I'm pretty sure they had the sense not to stat Azathoth or Yog-Sothoth. Everyone below those two though...)

Anyway, D&D's been doing this since Advanced. It's hardly anything new or surprising. It's just how high-level D&D is expected to work.

I will murder someone if they ever stat out the Eberron Soveriegn Host/Dark Six deities, though. I don't care if it means the people in other settings don't think they exist, being able to question their existence is the point.

Aren't they overdeities, though? Greater gods and below are still "mortal" in a sense that they can fade from existence but you can't kill something like Ao or the Lady of Pain that exist above everything or have total omnipotence.

[FoE]

Where are there stats for Dispater and Graz'zt?

[Mongoose87]

Nah, he only has IQ 20 which is "supra-genius" in AD&D terms. 21+ is god-like (which is laughable in 3E).

Cthulhu is probably the weakest "greater god" in the Deities and Demigods' Cthulhu Mythos section. You want a real fight? Hop on a Spelljammer and see if you can take on Azathoth. What's that? You approach within 1,000 miles of him? Make a save every round or go insane.

Still, if it has stats it can be killed.

I find it offensive that Azathoth is even statted. No mortal should be able to reasonably consider even attempting to harm him.

[Shazbot79]

Killing her off might have been the only good move they made lore-wise in 4th edition.

Speak for yourself.

I like 4E story concepts a lot more than previous editions.

[Jothki]

Aren't they overdeities, though? Greater gods and below are still "mortal" in a sense that they can fade from existence but you can't kill something like Ao or the Lady of Pain that exist above everything or have total omnipotence.

Is the Lady of Pain even a deity? I'd assume that that would lead to the beliefs of her worshippers being able to constrain her, which is why she smacks it down so hard.

[FoE]

Is the Lady of Pain even a deity?

Maybe. Probably not. The truth is, nobody knows what she is. The best guess is that she's an avatar of Sigil, a living personification of the city's will.

Aside from The Lady, the only being I hope they don't stat out is Asmodeus.

So, where are those stats on Graz'zt ...?

[arguskos]

That's technically true in D&D, but not in all systems. Call of Cthulhu, for example (although I'm pretty sure they had the sense not to stat Azathoth or Yog-Sothoth. Everyone below those two though...)

The former is nigh-impossible to stat, since you just go insane eventually. The latter would be pointless to fight, since if you actually, SOMEHOW, managed to slay it, the entirety of reality would end. That said, I actually want to see Yog-Sothoth stats, just to see what his abilities would be. Bonus points if they're just "stand there and take it".

[Haven]

Is the Lady of Pain even a deity? I'd assume that that would lead to the beliefs of her worshippers being able to constrain her, which is why she smacks it down so hard.

No, if she were a deity the belief of her worshippers would empower her. She's something else.

And if they stat the Lady of Pain...that's one of the very few things that would make me nerdrage, I think.

[Melamoto]

Since when has something being completely omnipotent ever stopped it from being statted out?

[arguskos]

No, if she were a deity the belief of her worshippers would empower her. She's something else.

And if they stat the Lady of Pain...that's one of the very few things that would make me nerdrage, I think.

Where's Tiki Snakes when you need him? He'd have a fit about this convo right here.

Also, the Lady is not a god, nor a power, nor a mortal. She simply is. And that's all there is to it. You wanna know more? Go get lost in the Wheel and ask a cutter or three what they think about the Lady.

[FoE]

And if they stat the Lady of Pain...that's one of the very few things that would make me nerdrage, I think.

They didn't in the DMG2 (where 4E's write-up on Sigil is contained), so I suspect they won't. It's made fairly clear she's not to be screwed with.

So, stats on Graz'zt? Anyone know where those are?

[Bayar]

Since when has something being completely omnipotent ever stopped it from being statted out?

Yeah, and Cthulhu is actually the Omiscifier, using infinite damage loops for infinite knowledge bonuses.

[daggaz]

Cthulu isn't all knowing. Or, for that matter, a deity. Just a high priest.

Also all knowing is all knowledges at like 300. You know everything worth knowing at that point.

Nor is he a "real world deity"... Godzilla exists in books, does that make him real?

[taltamir]

stating things fills pages, pages make a book, a book can be sold.

there are companies who say "we will not do that because it will detract from the game and we love the game" WOTC isn't one of them.

[Gamerlord]

It's a bit of a shame to see deities and such fully statted on the page, since that kinda... Well, it takes the mystique out of them. I prefer making the DM wing it, though I'm a homebrew heavy DM, so I'll admit a large amount of bias there.

Of course, the dial playable level cap does go up to eleven thirty now, though, so that's probably part of it.

Well, in the new 4e rules, epic levels are actually core, complete with adventures for them, and what do epic people do?

Kill gods on a daily basis.

Fixed your spelling .

stating things fills pages, pages make a book, a book can be sold.

there are companies who say "we will not do that because it will detract from the game and we love the game" WOTC isn't one of them.

Edition war in 5....4.....3.....2......1.....

And the lady of pain WILL be stated, why else would they have rules for lvl 40 creatures?

BTW, the cover of MM3 for 4e has The demon queen of spiders on it, stats ahoy!

[taltamir]

Edition war in 5....4.....3.....2......1.....

What? WOTC has been doing that since FOREVER.
they stated the gods in ADD, in 3e, and now in 4e...
Have you tried counting how many splat books they make for each edition? This really has nothing to do with edition and does not justify an edition war.

Well, in the new 4e rules, epic levels are actually core, complete with adventures for them, and what do epic people do?

Kill gods on a daily basis.

Well, the official WOTC stance on epic levels is "once your players become epic, they are probably going to suggest becoming gods, we say, let them. To find an appropriate encounter they can move beyond this reality, to other planes, the city of doors, etc, and fight things that can kill gods"

This is not verbatim, but a paraphrase of what I remember reading... so yes, killing gods and being gods is what epic characters do, IN ANY edition.

[Gamerlord]

What? WOTC has been doing that since FOREVER.
they stated the gods in ADD, in 3e, and now in 4e...
Have you tried counting how many splat books they make for each edition? This really has nothing to do with edition and does not justify an edition war.

I didn't say it did, I'm just saying sooner or later some dude is going to attack you for that on this forum, be on your guard, the pixies are coming...

And you have a good point...

[Morty]

And the lady of pain WILL be stated, why else would they have rules for lvl 40 creatures?

Any number of overdeities whose nature isn't intentionally left ambigous?

[Ladorak]

The former is nigh-impossible to stat, since you just go insane eventually. The latter would be pointless to fight, since if you actually, SOMEHOW, managed to slay it, the entirety of reality would end. That said, I actually want to see Yog-Sothoth stats, just to see what his abilities would be. Bonus points if they're just "stand there and take it".

The whole 'they go insane' thing is kinda the point of Call of Cthulu (The RPG). They statted Azathoth on page 162 of the core rulebook. Just seeing his stats is enough to force a sanity check...

They also statted Yog-Sothoth. He's basically unkillible