Methods of Non-Detection Help

[Wings of Peace]

I'm making a character for mostly theoretical purposes and I would appreciate some assistance. The build itself is an Iaijutsu build but the Iaijutsu I already have under control myself. I recall a rule in the Rules Compendium that if an enemy is unaware of your presence they are flat-footed (May have the wording slightly wrong). I want to find a method of Non-Detection that will work in the widest array of situations to enable as much Iaijutsu damage as possible. Invisibility obviously comes to mind but there are spells that Penetrate it and it does not function in anti-magic field. Help?

[PhoenixRivers]

Sadly I've lost access to a great number of my D&D books for the time but driven by inspiration I'm still designing off of memory. I recall a rule in the Rules Compendium that if an enemy is unaware of your presence they are flat-footed (May have the wording slightly wrong). I want to find a method of Non-Detection that will work in the widest array of situations. Invisibility obviously comes to mind but there are spells that Penetrate it and it does not function in anti-magic field. Help?

The most reliable way is hiding.

With 13 levels of Wilderness rogue, you get an <EX> Hide in Plain Sight, as long as you're in nature.

Shadowdancer gives <SU> Hide in Plain Sight, if you're near shadows.

Both together should make you reasonably hard to detect.

Wilderness Rogue 13 / Shadowdancer 1 / XXX 6

On a side note, they're not flat footed. They are denied their Dex bonus to AC (unless they have the blindfighting feat). Subtle difference that occasionally matters.

[Sliver]

Shadowdancer gives <SU> Hide in Plain Sight, if you're near shadows.

You can easily use it to hide anywhere... The only limitation is you can't use your own shadow, but you can use your allies, your enemies, or even the grass and random anything.. Is that really RAI?

[mostlyharmful]

combine Non-Detection the spell with Mindblank, Superior Invisibility, Ghostform and you're set versus just about everything except Mindsight and Lifesense.

[Wings of Peace]

On a side note, they're not flat footed. They are denied their Dex bonus to AC (unless they have the blindfighting feat). Subtle difference that occasionally matters.

Incorrect. I was able to find my Rules Compendium

Rules Compendium p. 92:
"If you’re successfully hidden with respect to another
creature, that creature is flat-footed with respect to you. That
creature treats you as if you were invisible (see page 76)."

Edit: I should have explained this in the first post and I'll edit it in, my build in mind is an Iaijutsu build. The Iaijutsu part I have down pat I'm mostly looking for efficient ways of Flat-Footing.

[Fishy]

Don't forget your Darkstalker. Lets you Hide against pretty much any sort of sense: scent, blindsight, tremorsense...

[PinkysBrain]

Flat footed status was always on the thin edge of rules lawyering.

Rules lawyering wise I wouldn't say the rules compendium entry says that invisibility grants flat footedness perse, it just says that hiding does it.

[deuxhero]

That colar from Tome of Magic that grants you the Dark template (or get the template proper and buy it off), not only does it have HiPS, but tons of other goodies.

[Wings of Peace]

Flat footed status was always on the thin edge of rules lawyering.

Rules lawyering wise I wouldn't say the rules compendium entry says that invisibility grants flat footedness perse, it just says that hiding does it.

I'm not sure how accurate it is to call it rules lawyering if one were to say that invisibility hides you.

[PinkysBrain]

If you’re successfully hidden with respect to another
creature, that creature is flat-footed with respect to you. That
creature treats you as if you were invisible (see page 76).

The causal link between flat-footedness and invisibility is weak. You can read it as :

If you’re successfully hidden with respect to another
creature, that creature is flat-footed with respect to you. That means the creature treats you as if you were invisible.

Or you can read it as :

If you’re successfully hidden with respect to another
creature, that creature is flat-footed with respect to you. That
creature also treats you as if you were invisible.

Add to it that the rules on page 76 say absolutely nothing about flat-footedness and you just end up with a weak case.

Invisibility only gives you a bonus on your hide check, it doesn't make you hidden.

[Wings of Peace]

The causal link between flat-footedness and invisibility is weak. You can read it as :


Or you can read it as :


Add to it that the rules on page 76 say absolutely nothing about flat-footedness and you just end up with a weak case.

I want to hear you say the words "Invisibility does not hide you."

[PinkysBrain]

Well, it doesn't.

[Wings of Peace]

Well, it doesn't.

How does it not hide me? They cannot SEE me.

[PinkysBrain]

The finer points of rules lawyering ... a word can have it's English meaning and it can have a rules meaning. With the rules meaning of hiding invisibility doesn't make you hidden, it only gives a bonus, your hide check does.

[Wings of Peace]

The finer points of rules lawyering ... a word can have it's English meaning and it can have a rules meaning. With the rules meaning of hiding invisibility doesn't make you hidden, it only gives a bonus, your hide check does.

The preceding paragraph to the one cited is in reference to hiding. With the current paragraph then expanding on that idea and finishing with the mention of if I have succeeded on these counts I am treated as though invisible.

If

Hidden vs. Creature = Creature Flat Footed

and

Hidden vs. Creature = I am treated as though invisible

Then

I am treated as though invisible = Flat-Footed

and if

Invisibility = I am treated as invisible

Then

Invisible = They are Flat-Footed

They're not written as separate benefits. If it cannot see me I am already recieving the same benefit invisibility grants me. I cannot become doubly unseeable. Further, the final sentence does not say that I am ALSO treated as though invisible which would indicate this is again not a seperate benefit.

[PinkysBrain]

They're not written as separate benefits.

They are not written as equivalent either ...

If it had said "That means the creature treats you as if you were invisible." you would have a strong case, as it is you have a weak case.

If we take "=" as meaning full equivalence then these two statements can't both be true BTW :

Hidden vs. Creature = I am treated as though invisible

Invisibility = I am treated as invisible

Or at least not if we take into account that you can be invisible without being hidden.

You seek truth where there is only semantics (there is no truth outside of mathematics). I am not saying you have no case, I'm saying you have a weak case.

[Wings of Peace]

After some review what is public opinion on these parameters?

Race: Necropolitan [Libris Mortis]
Class (For HiPs only): Lurking Terror 3 [Libris Mortis]
Feats: Darkstalker [Lords of Madness], Shape Soulmeld: Fellmist Robe [Magic of Incarnum]

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Needs more Darkstalker. Seriously. That is the only way to hide from certain abilities.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Not from Mindsight if I'm reading correctly. Bizarre oversight in Lords of Madness.