The Age of the Warriors - a ToB expansion book idea

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Oh hey, look what I found. Just a simple list, rather than any attempt to integrate all of them, but wow, is there a lot of material out there.

...most of which is archived at this point, unfortunately. For all of my stuff in that list, and some by others, I had to hit the Wayback Machine because the WotC archives are gone. It would be great if someone could go through and see what threads still exist, but don't expect to get more than a handful of disciplines or PrCs.

I also will point out that a lot of these need the associated 2 feats (one tactical, one pre-requisite to the tactical) and perminant maneuver granting items created (counterparts to the White Raven Crowns, Desert Wind Cape etc). The maneuver granting items basically just need fluff and which slot they take up. The feats are hard enough they might not get written for all the disciplines, but it would be nice to have them for as many as possible. Legacy weapons would be a nice bonus if we can come up with a few, but those are a major undertaking I think (as shown by the fact that none have been created to date that I know of). Then again it is possible that the type of homebrewer who has a talent for discipline creation doesn't usually happen to be the type who has the skills for legacy weapon creation.... now that I think of it, I don't know that I have EVER seen a legacy weapon on these entire boards.

You haven't been looking hard enough. My Ocean Tempest has the feats and the legacy weapon, if you want to take a look, though I admite I overlooked the maneuver-granting item.

[Nero24200]

Adding manuever granting items is easy, you pretty much just need to specify a slot. The feats are slightly harder, since it requires new effects (and in the case of the Tactical feats, multiple new effects).

Looking forward to seeing how this project turns out, so once I try my hand at the feats I'll update the post with my discipline in it.

I'm also considering something similar to the...well...I can't remember it's name, but it was like a chain devil with automatic access to a chain/grapple focused discipline. Something like that might be nice for other disciplines as well (and could add possible fluff reasons for them not being taught at the first temple of nine swords, since they might have been inspired by the monsters first or discouraged).

[DragoonWraith]

Do you mean the Dorokusai that Saintheart just posted? That one is pretty sweet, I'm very happy with what he did with my discipline.

[The Demented One]

You haven't been looking hard enough. My Ocean Tempest has the feats and the legacy weapon, if you want to take a look, though I admite I overlooked the maneuver-granting item.

*cough*It'salsoawesome*cough*

[Nero24200]

Do you mean the Dorokusai that Saintheart just posted? That one is pretty sweet, I'm very happy with what he did with my discipline.

That's exactly what I meant. I've always thought about the idea of monsters using some dicisplines naturally, like a vampire using some of the HP restoring manuevers in the Devoted Spirit school, refluffing them as the vampire draining blood and using it's energy to heal himself. Creating (or recreating) monsters that use diciplines or gain automatic access to some manuevers could help flesh out this type of setting a little more.

[elliott20]

that's primarily one of the ideas I have about this book. In addition to say, just having a couple extra creatures, if you guys feel up to it, we can also write down guides on how to convert standard MM creatures into martial discipline creatures and attach a couple examples.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

*cough*It'salsoawesome*cough*

Thanks. You're the first person to even acknowledge its existence, though....

[deuxhero]

Wow. This much material would basically allow someone to run a game with initiators without ever buying the tome of battle. Thank you all very much!

Well there is still how maneuvers and such "work". A bit is covered in this expert, but is leaves a bit out.

[Dante & Vergil]

Do we want to bring up that one discipline? Uh, y'know... that one with the tentacles and the Ecchinobi.

I know it's not going to go up here, but do you have a copy of the class? I ask because the original creator over at Gleemax has been trying to find it again because he didn't save it on his computer.
If anyone has this, send me a copy so I can get it to him.

Also, I took the liberty to copy down a bunch of the old disciplines from the Martial_Compendium. If it's archived, I can see if I was able to get it from gleemax before the big switch.

[Zovc]

There's an overwhelming of ToB homebrew on these forums, and I'll start looking through things, but here are some ideas that I think should be included.

• A revised, sublime Monk. (Yes, I know that there is an Unarmed Swordsage, but I've never read it, so I don't know if it gets more "Monky" or not.)
• A sublime class that has Charisma synergy.
• Possibly a sublime class that has more Wisdom synergy than the Swordsage.
• A sublime class well suited to using Dexterity, it gives weapon finesse, and later on lets you add dexterity to your damage. Perhaps the class lets you add your dexterity modifier plus half your dexterity modifier to your armor--most classes that add something else still let you keep your dexterity bonus if any.
• A sublime prestige class tailored to Sword and Board, Two handers, and dual wielding, maybe even just one one-handed weapon.
• One sublime class for each added discipline, designed to be the epitome of one who practices the respective discipline.
• Feats to go with each added discipline.
• Miscelaneous feats that increase random synergies with.
• Possibly feats for non-initiators.
• Perhaps some a feat that makes multiclassing work better between two martial classes.
• Perhaps "dual-progression" feats that resemble Complete Scoundrel's feats.
• A legacy weapon to go with each added discipline.
• Perhaps some new equipment.
• Maybe we could add a domain and/or some spells to the game while we're at it.
• What about a sublime NPC class?

[Shyftir]

I'm very interested in this discussion. I'd like to see the Sohei of OA turned into a martial character idea along with a pole-armist focused discipline, in fact sign me up as "the guy working on Martial Sohei."

[Zovc]

I'm very interested in this discussion. I'd like to see the Sohei of OA turned into a martial character idea along with a pole-armist focused discipline, in fact sign me up as "the guy working on Martial Sohei."

A good place to start with making a polearm specialist would be letting them use a polearm with reach to threaten adjacent spells as well. This could work, at first, as a move action to switch your grip, and later become a free action.

[DragoonWraith]

There's an overwhelming of ToB homebrew on these forums, and I'll start looking through things, but here are some ideas that I think should be included.

• A sublime class that has Charisma synergy.
• A sublime class well suited to using Dexterity, it gives weapon finesse, and later on lets you add dexterity to your damage. Perhaps the class lets you add your dexterity modifier plus half your dexterity modifier to your armor--most classes that add something else still let you keep your dexterity bonus if any.
• A sublime prestige class tailored to Sword and Board, Two handers, and dual wielding, maybe even just one one-handed weapon.

I have interest in doing the first and third, and am currently working on the second, for the record.

Not calling dibs or anything, just kind of stating interest.

[The Demented One]

A revised, sublime Monk. (Yes, I know that there is an Unarmed Swordsage, but I've never read it, so I don't know if it gets more "Monky" or not.)

That's what the Swordsage is.

A sublime class that has Charisma synergy.

See the Warrior-Poet that I posted above.

Possibly a sublime class that has more Wisdom synergy than the Swordsage.

Um...what's wrong with the Swordsage as is?

A sublime class well suited to using Dexterity, it gives weapon finesse, and later on lets you add dexterity to your damage. Perhaps the class lets you add your dexterity modifier plus half your dexterity modifier to your armor--most classes that add something else still let you keep your dexterity bonus if any.

That's not a class, that's a Swordsage who took Shadow Hand.

A sublime prestige class tailored to Sword and Board, Two handers, and dual wielding, maybe even just one one-handed weapon.

I would do these as disciplines, but the concept is sound.

One sublime class for each added discipline, designed to be the epitome of one who practices the respective discipline.

Are you talking prestige classes or base classes? The former is almost obligatory, the latter would be ridiculous.

What about a sublime NPC class?

Nigh-preposterous. What's wrong with just having a Warrior take Martial Study?

[The Demented One]

Oh, and a thought–would anyone be interested in seeing some Epic Martial Styles? I'd come up with an idea for doing them a while ago, but never actually implemented it.

[Eldan]

Well, many different weapon styles are well covered by disciplines already, if we look at the ton of homebrew we have here. There's one for two-weapon fighting, at least. Sword-and-board probably needs a little more love, though.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Oh, and a thought–would anyone be interested in seeing some Epic Martial Styles? I'd come up with an idea for doing them a while ago, but never actually implemented it.

Sure, I'd go for that. Heck, if it's up to your usual standards, even people who wouldn't want to see it would probably be won over in the end.

Sword-and-board probably needs a little more love, though.

Very much so. I think I'll do a S&B discipline the next time I get around to doing one--again, not calling dibs, so feel free to do one.

[Zovc]

Perhaps I should look through the ToB more wholesomely.

See the Warrior-Poet that I posted above.

Will do.

I would do these as disciplines, but the concept is sound.

I suppose they could work as disciplines. Why not add 'polearm-user' to the list while we're at it, since Shyftir mentioned it.

Are you talking prestige classes or base classes? The former is almost obligatory, the latter would be ridiculous.

I meant to put prestige in there somewhere.

Nigh-preposterous. What's wrong with just having a Warrior take Martial Study?

Something I hadn't considered.

[Eldan]

Sword and Board Discipline... how do you do that? I can see shield slams, and a few counters you can do while holding a shield, but what else? Deflecting stuff (spells, maybe) with a shield?

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Sword and Board Discipline... how do you do that? I can see shield slams, and a few counters you can do while holding a shield, but what else? Deflecting stuff (spells, maybe) with a shield?

I'm seeing it as one quarter combo attacks (bash with shield and follow up with weapon, trap enemy's weapon between shield and weapon, etc.), one quarter making a shield a more useful defense (miss chances and/or deflecting ranged attacks, using it for cover, etc.), one quarter using the shield for offense and/or weapon for defense (stun or daze with shield slams, better "full defense" if you block with both shield and weapon, etc.), and one quarter bringing one-handed damage up to the level of two-handed damage to give S&B a comparable damage output to Power Attacking zweihanders.

How much of that can be accomplished, and how much can fit in one discipline, is up in the air, but that's what I'd aim for, anyway.

[Eldan]

Well, one handed damage is already covered with other disciplines, so that wouldn't have to be part of it, I think. After all, you can still take Diamond Mind or Tiger Claw strikes with an S&B discipline.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Well, one handed damage is already covered with other disciplines, so that wouldn't have to be part of it, I think. After all, you can still take Diamond Mind or Tiger Claw strikes with an S&B discipline.

True, but I'm thinking more along the lines of maneuvers that specifically are better with one-handed the same way some Tiger Claw strikes and boosts are better with TWF. Most other maneuvers can be used one- or two-handed, so a two-hander is still coming out on top. Granted, the proportions noted above are less even proportions of each kind of maneuver in the discipline and more the four conceptual parts of it, so there would probably be 3-4 einhander damage boosters at most, just as long as there's something in there along those lines.

[Zovc]

I feel like the S&B discipline should take a one-on-one control role and try to provide the ability to not be flanked (at first not by two, but by three, then simply not at all?). I imagine a polearm should provide 'area' control more so than a sword and shield would.

[DracoDei]

Very much so. I think I'll do a S&B discipline the next time I get around to doing one--again, not calling dibs, so feel free to do one.

Devoted Spirit has a few shield based maneuvers... enough so that the Paladin/Crusader in the game I PLAY in (not the one I GM) uses a S&B.

I realize that may not be enough, but I thought it worth reminding people of.

[deuxhero]

Note that you can use a shield bash for two weapon fighting.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

I feel like the S&B discipline should take a one-on-one control role and try to provide the ability to not be flanked (at first not by two, but by three, then simply not at all?). I imagine a polearm should provide 'area' control more so than a sword and shield would.

Yeah, S&B definitely has a more "one against the horde" feel than a polearm style would. And yes, you can TWF with a shield and Devoted Spirit has some shield maneuvers, but a devoted discipline would still be nice.

Anyway, we're derailing the thread a bit; I'll try to get up at least a draft of a S&B discipline by this weekend, and we can debate its merits in that thread.

[Shyftir]

A good place to start with making a pole-arm specialist would be letting them use a polearm with reach to threaten adjacent spells as well. This could work, at first, as a move action to switch your grip, and later become a free action.

Actually I covered that with the first stance in the pole-arm focused discipline I'm creating to go with the class.

I'll post the blurb on the discipline and the entry for the stance in the spoiler.

Spoiler

Show

Death Adder
Death Adder maneuvers are swift and deadly much like the lunging strike of the snakes for which the style is named. The naginata (glaive), guisarme, halberd, ransuer, spear and long-spear are the preferred weapons of the Death Adder discipline. The long reach and piercing capabilities of these weapons make them ideal for the in and out strikes favored by Death Adder practitioners. Balance is the key skill for Death Adder allowing the initiator to stay poised while shifting his weight in swift, lunging strikes. Death Adder maneuvers are only usable by Sohei, unless you take the Martial Study feat.

Coiled Bite
Death Adder (Stance)
Level: Sohei 1
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Duration: Stance

With a simple change of posture and shifting of grip you alter your weapons range entirely.

While in this stance you can use a reach weapon to attack enemies in squares adjacent to you, but you sacrifice 5 ft of reach to do so.

No one is using the name "Viper Fang" for a discipline yet are they?

Edit: I guess someone is, coming up with new name...

Got the new name, Death Adder.

[elliott20]

Rapid Coil? nah, that just sounds silly.

It seems that the wizard compendium board make up is quite different from what we have here. I'll have to see if I can incorporate all of it.

[Saintheart]

That's exactly what I meant. I've always thought about the idea of monsters using some dicisplines naturally, like a vampire using some of the HP restoring manuevers in the Devoted Spirit school, refluffing them as the vampire draining blood and using it's energy to heal himself. Creating (or recreating) monsters that use diciplines or gain automatic access to some manuevers could help flesh out this type of setting a little more.

Just a minor note here that the Valkyrie, in the back of the ToB book, is an excellent model to build off when you're creating monsters of this kind. It gets automatic access to maneuvers without having class levels in Swordsage, Warblade or Crusader per se; I used its build as guidance for creating the Dorokusai. It's also an easier build to get to grips with than the variant Rakshasha they also cite, and more powerful than the Reth Dekala which seems to be a CR 4 monster.

that's primarily one of the ideas I have about this book. In addition to say, just having a couple extra creatures, if you guys feel up to it, we can also write down guides on how to convert standard MM creatures into martial discipline creatures and attach a couple examples.

I'm no expert, but the very quick rule I assumed was this, going off the Valkyrie build: a creature gets an Initiator Level equal to its CR. It gets a number of automatic maneuvers and stances at least equal to its Initiator Level, though it seems to me lower CR-rated monsters get a couple more. The Valkyrie gets 10 automatic maneuvers, has an IL of 10, and is CR 10. The Dorokusai is (roughly) a CR 12 build, therefore gets IL 12, and has 12 maneuvers.

[elliott20]

list updated, still need to grab the wizard community stuff