The Age of the Warriors - a ToB expansion book idea

[ErrantX]

Black Heron and Dread Crown seem to overlap a bit in fluff. Not to say there can't be two fiendishly originating disciplines, but they are a definite pair of candidates for being "related" in the projects fluff.

Personally, I don't see it. Dread Crown originated from two incredibly potent outsiders from the Lower Planes, Black Heron originated from possessing fiends channeling their wrath through a mortal vessel. I can see how one of said fiends might know Dread Crown as well, but they are mutually exclusive in my mind. I need to make some more classes that utilize Black Heron, and a monster or two that use it to help it along. The Kazarzeth alone isn't cutting it.

Also, why are we trying to make the ludicrous Falling Anvil discipline fit with everything?

-X

[pyrefiend]

Also, why are we trying to make the ludicrous Falling Anvil discipline fit with everything?

I'd say Draco is doing the opposite, i.e. finding components of the project that are incompatible with Falling Anvil.

[DracoDei]

As far as the history is concerned, I consider that it is already fitted in for any particular campaign that a GM choses to include it in.

The "compatible/incompatible" thing is just which disciplines you can also know maneuvers of while knowing Falling Anvil maneuvers. It has NOTHING to do with what things it can exist in the same SETTING with.

EDIT: As for why anyone would use it, all I will say for the moment is that I have had more than one reaction of "I want to PLAY that", so regardless of the specific reasons, people do want to play it. Or did you mean why a CHARACTER would want to pursue it?

[pyrefiend]

Not to knock Draco or anything, as I know how hard it is to come up with a discipline that's not like any of the others (harder still with all the homebrews out there!) but I guess I just don't understand why anyone would fight like Bugs friggin' Bunny in D&D and call it fun. Or why it needs to be compatible or incompatible with anything. Just my 2 cents.

-X

Well, OK. This might be thinking about it too much, and DracoDei is free to Joss me, of course, but this is how I see it.

Falling Anvil can be a reasonable part of an otherwise non-silly campaign if you consider it to be the functional opposite of the Far Realms discipline. Both are based on insanity and a lack of logic, but whereas the general mood of Far Realms is darker-than-black, Falling Anvil is super-bleached-white. Far Realms isolates the concept from the player, as the fluff is that it's power source is completely incomprehensible and alien. Falling Anvil, on the other hand, does the opposite: introducing concepts to the player that don't make any sense to the characters themselves! Neither make any sense, and so Falling Anvil is, in a way, no less fitting than Far Realms.

You might even say that the "Far Realms" of Falling Anvil is the real world, as the concept would be just as bizarre to the characters.

[DracoDei]

Well, OK. This might be thinking about it too much, and DracoDei is free to Joss me, of course, but this is how I see it.

Falling Anvil can be a reasonable part of an otherwise non-silly campaign...

That would never have even occurred to me... While I think you may have something there, I would have assumed that if you were going to include it the GM would also have other humorous (or at least meta-referencing, such as setting the whole thing in Oz or having monsters from specific horror movies as enemies), elements to it. Both the inestimable Vorpal Tribble and myself have created pun-based monsters, and those would be very at home in a campaign that included Falling Anvil to my way of thinking.

...if you consider it to be the functional opposite of the Far Realms discipline. Both are based on insanity and a lack of logic, but whereas the general mood of Far Realms is darker-than-black, Falling Anvil is super-bleached-white. Far Realms isolates the concept from the player, as the fluff is that it's power source is completely incomprehensible and alien. Falling Anvil, on the other hand, does the opposite: introducing concepts to the player that don't make any sense to the characters themselves! Neither make any sense, and so Falling Anvil is, in a way, no less fitting than Far Realms.

You might even say that the "Far Realms" of Falling Anvil is the real world, as the concept would be just as bizarre to the characters.

Again, this is a very interesting take, and any thoughts I might have to the contrary are NOT Jossing you, just proposing another, equally valid, option. My own thoughts were simply along the lines of the MST3K mantra...


Also: I have added some templates for the "Wake of the X" maneuvers from Ocean Soul to one of my earlier posts since I made it.

EDIT: Corrected some stuff about my templates (the maximum size of some of the cones for the lower level maneuvers was smaller than I thought it was), and glanced at Ocean Tempest. Ocean Tempest looks compatible, but I also noticed that the mechanics for "Ride the River" are still missing.

[Golden-Esque]

Wow, it appears like the very fabric of DracoDei's discipline is under fire 0_0. As far as I'm concerned, Falling Anvil has just as much place in the setting as anything else does; as far as connections go, it has a fairly strong one in Far Realms should Draco choose to joss it, and there are PLENTY of examples where people see something and go "I want to play that." Monks were born from the "I want to play that" of oriental martial arts, and I think its safe to say that the Falling Anvil discipline is in a better place mechanics wise then the poor, old Monk :).

I do salute you though, Draco. I kinda wish all of MY morales and ideas regarding my discipline (Solaris Arcanum) came under fire :D. You are a lucky one to warrant such attention ^_^.

[DracoDei]

Heh. If Swordsage recovery didn't bug me so much, I think I would have gone with a character focused on Falling Anvil and Far Realm for the tournie. The hilariously disturbing part is that they actually synergize really well.

Well, if you feel like being cheesy, you could make a warblade who took a bunch of White Raven and Diamond Mind maneuvers, and then went nuts (Martial Study or Martial Stance for something from Falling Anvil) and all those maneuvers converted to Falling Anvil maneuvers of equal level...

[Haven]

Well, if you feel like being cheesy, you could make a warblade who took a bunch of White Raven and Diamond Mind maneuvers, and then went nuts (Martial Study or Martial Stance for something from Falling Anvil) and all those maneuvers converted to Falling Anvil maneuvers of equal level...

...Ooh! I forgot that's how it works.

Say, I could actually do that with my crusader if I had given up Devoted Spirit instead of White Raven for Far Realm. Hmmm.

[DracoDei]

Devoted Spirit is ALSO "incompatible" with Falling Anvil, so you still could... you just wouldn't have any Devoted Spirit Maneuvers.


EDIT: Also, I have a PrC to contribute the True Master of Nine (already designed with homebrew disciplines in mind). I can't believe I didn't mention it before...
EDIT^2: Which is already in the listing on the first page, so it is probably beside the point except to formally say "Yes, you can include it in the project".

[Nero24200]

@Draco
Have you ever looked at the Grey Jesters in Heroes of Horror? If you're playing in a more serious campaign, I could still see this type of discipline working for a creature like that. In fact, if you made a creature for that discipline (similer to the chain devil for that grappiling discipline) it would make alot of sense, and if done right could make for a particularly chilling encounter.

For those unfamilier with Grey Jesters, they're evil fey that feed off of emotions. In combat, they try to use Tasha's Hideous Laughter to make your characters laugh, then spend the next few rounds draining their charisma (since they can only do it to characters that are laughing).

[DracoDei]

Hadn't heard of Grey Jesters before, no...

Given my tastes I am much more likely to stat out my friend, Pastor Oren Otter's, rubber chicken wielding Angel character Vlax...

[ErrantX]

Meh, whatever, I'll look like the jerk then I just dislike the discipline because it doesn't fit with any aspect of D&D at all. Ever. But that's just my opinion. To each their own. Kudos to you for having people who like it.

I will pipe back in at a later time when we're not discussing this discipline.

-X

[DracoDei]

Here are some tables I generated while researching for Falling Anvil. I will probably be adding some of the homebrew disciplines. I don't know if these are useful numbers to be measuring, but they should be of some use... the number of maneuvers at each level gives a vague idea of how versitile a discipline is, whereas the pre-requisites give an idea of how much dedication it takes.

{Table=head]Maneuver Level|Desert Wind|Stone Dragon| Tiger Claw | Setting Sun|Shadow Hand|Diamond Mind|Iron Heart|White Raven|Devoted Spirit|Man Lev
1| 0 | 0 |0-1(MOST 1!)| 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 |1
2| 0-1 | 0 | 0 | 0-1 | 0-1 | 0-1 | 0 | 1 | 0 |2
3| 0-1 | 0-1 | 1-2 | 1 | 0-1 | 0-1 | 1 | 1 | 1 |3
4| 1-2 | 0-2 | 1-2 | 1-2 | 0-2 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 1 |4
5| 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 0-2 | 0-2 | 2 | 2 | 1 |5
6| 2 | 0-2 | 2 | 2 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 |6
7| 3 | 2-3 | 2-3 | 3 | 0!? | 3 | 3 | 3 | 2 |7
8| 3 | 2-3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 0-3 | 2-3 | 1-3 | 2-3 |8
9| 5 | !!??0??!! | 4 | 5 | 5 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 3 |9[/Table]

Maneuvers
{Table=head]Maneuver Level|Desert Wind|Stone Dragon| Tiger Claw | Setting Sun|Shadow Hand|Diamond Mind|Iron Heart|White Raven|Devoted Spirit|Anvil|Man Lev
1| 5 | 3 | 4 | 3 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 4 | 4 | 7 |1
2| 4 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 4 |2
3| 4 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 6 |3
4| 3 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 5 |4
5| 3 | 3 | 2 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 5* | 4 |5
6| 3 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 5* | 4 |6
7| 2 | 2 | 3 | 1 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 5 |7
8| 2 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 3 |8
9| 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 |9[/Table]
*Alignment Based (so you can take, at most, 2 of 4 very similar maneuvers).

[Krazddndfreek]

For the record, its Devoted Spirit, not Devoted Defender

[DracoDei]

Fixed the name problem... have an idea for an Epic magic item related to the Sublime way.

More tables(incomplete, but usuable). Might put them all together in one post so people will have less of a distance to scroll up and down to get each maneuver after I get a bunch together...((And yes, I know it is The Way of THE Gear, but it that would mess up the spacing in the text file I am working in...))
Prerequisite Maneuvers
{Table=head]Maneuver Level|Army of One |Black Heron| Black Rain| Far Realm |Lost Lyrics|Narrow Bridge|Sola. Arcan.|Twin Spirit|Way of Gear|Man Lev
1| 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0-1 | 0 | 0 |1
2| 0 | | 0 | | | | 0-1 | | |2
3| 1 | | 0-1 | | | | 1 | | |3
4| 1 | | 1-2 | | | | 2-3 | | |4
5| 1 | | 2 | | | | 0-2 | | |5
6| 2 | | 0-2 | | | | 2-3 | | |6
7| 3 | | 3 | | | | 0,3 | | |7
8| 3 | | 3-4 | | | | 0,4 | | |8
9| 4 | | 4 | | | | 4 | | |9[/Table]

Maneuvers
{Table=head]Maneuver Level|Army of One |Black Heron| Black Rain| Far Realm |Lost Lyrics|Narrow Bridge|Sola. Arcan.|Twin Spirit|Way of Gear|Man Lev
1| 5 | | 4 | | | | 4 | | |1
2| 4 | | 4 | | | | 4 | | |2
3| 4 | | 3 | | | | 3 | | |3
4| 4 | | 2 | | | | 3 | | |4
5| 3 | | 2 | | | | 3 | | |5
6| 3 | | 2 | | | | 2 | | |6
7| 3 | | 2 | | | | 2 | | |7
8| 3 | | 2 | | | | 2 | | |8
9| 1 | | 1 | | | | 1 | | |9[/Table]
*Alignment Based (so you can take, at most, 2 of 4 very similar maneuvers).

[Golden-Esque]

So if I'm understanding this right, the top chart lists how many maneuvers at the given level require a prerequisite, while the bottom lists how many maneuvers there are at that level period?

[DracoDei]

A pair of typoes, if they are typoes... but important that I check: "...how many maneuvers maneuvers at the given level require AS prerequisite..."

With that correction, I you have it right...

[DragoonWraith]

The prerequisites on some of the 1st level Tiger Claw maneuvers is one of the dumbest things in ToB, I think. That just shouldn't happen.

Anyway, I made similar charts when working on Chthonic Serpent, with a breakdown of the number of Strikes, Boosts, Counters, and Stances at each level of each Discipline. I'll post that when United Airlines returns my desktop to me.

Also, as far as Falling Anvil... I tend to agree with ErrantX, but I think I can also provide some meaningful feedback - namely, I dislike the "incompatibility" mechanic quite a bit. I think it's awkward, makes little to no sense in-character, and is extremely difficult to scale up for this project. I think it would be better to convert it to a system similar to TD1's training system (in fact, I think that system works best and should be used for all of the disciplines). Thoughts?

[Haven]

Also, as far as Falling Anvil... I tend to agree with ErrantX, but I think I can also provide some meaningful feedback - namely, I dislike the "incompatibility" mechanic quite a bit. I think it's awkward, makes little to no sense in-character, and is extremely difficult to scale up for this project. I think it would be better to convert it to a system similar to TD1's training system (in fact, I think that system works best and should be used for all of the disciplines). Thoughts?

I agree, actually. Far Realm has a similar problem (further proof that they are twins?), specifically that it requires a feat to access instead of the training system. But that's not the only benefit the feat gives, so it probably wouldn't break its intended balance too much if we subjected it to the training system and standardized that across all the disciplines.

[DracoDei]

Anyway, I made similar charts when working on Chthonic Serpent, with a breakdown of the number of Strikes, Boosts, Counters, and Stances at each level of each Discipline. I'll post that when United Airlines returns my desktop to me.

That will be good I think.

Also, as far as Falling Anvil... I tend to agree with ErrantX, but I think I can also provide some meaningful feedback - namely, I dislike the "incompatibility" mechanic quite a bit. I think it's awkward, makes little to no sense in-character, and is extremely difficult to scale up for this project. I think it would be better to convert it to a system similar to TD1's training system (in fact, I think that system works best and should be used for all of the disciplines). Thoughts?

I am afraid you may be right mechanically. HOWEVER, the reasons I like it is BECAUSE of the way it works in-character. Often times in cartoons you will have a very staid character who finally reaches a breaking point and starts doing completely ridiculous things which radically alters the physics of the way that character operates... the idea is that focus can not exist in the same mind as lunacy (Diamond Mind), fanatical devotion to a cause can't cohabit with the relaxed flow that lets the universe take care of you (Devoted Spirit), fury is a mutually exclusive emotion to laughter(Tiger Claw), and leading someone is a very different relationship from entertaining them AKA Marines have NO sense of humor (White Raven) etc etc etc.

Mechanically it might be improved if already having X maneuvers of Falling Anvil added it to your disciplines for all classes. That way you can have your Crusader "snap" at 10th level, and not be so limited to only Stone Dragon maneuvers for effective combat tactics at 16th...

Part of my reasoning is/was that I actually consider it "a discipline and a half" due to the large number of maneuvers and extreme diversity of options it grants. Thus, losing only a single discipline to access it seem(s/ed) to me to be overpowered.

On balance I am going to suggest making my personal mechanic (whatever it turns out to be) an optional rule.

[The Demented One]

That would never have even occurred to me... While I think you may have something there, I would have assumed that if you were going to include it the GM would also have other humorous (or at least meta-referencing, such as setting the whole thing in Oz or having monsters from specific horror movies as enemies), elements to it. Both the inestimable Vorpal Tribble and myself have created pun-based monsters, and those would be very at home in a campaign that included Falling Anvil to my way of thinking.

Yeah, I honestly see it as being a very niche-y campaign that Falling Anvil would fit into. Have you considered doing it, should a pdf ever come out of this, as an appendix?

[DracoDei]

If you mean the discipline itself, that would be up to Elliot20, or whoever is in charge of formatting. Personally I would prefer it to be in with all the rest, just with a rather prominent note at the top of it regarding what sorts of campaigns it is suitable for. In timelines and such just writing it as "Falling Anvil(Humorous)", might suffice. There are, of course, advantages and disadvantages to each method, so in the end I leave it to the wisdom of the formatters (with input from everyone else).

If on the other hand, you mean would I feel like writing up a campaign setting specially made to incorporate it and other such humorous works, the answer is that I don't think I would be very good at it by myself.

[Haven]

Hey guys, just a reminder--there's a playtest tournament for the material we've got so far, if anyone's interested in participating. :o

[Debihuman]

I realize that I'm getting into the debate here rather late, but it strikes me that there are two ways of looking at the expansion either to be inclusive and include Falling Anvil because it is another variation on the rules, or to be exclusive and exclude Falling Anvil because it doesn't fit the Age of Warriors theme.

Generally, I am all for the inclusive approach. Unfortunately, there is a matter of game balance in addition to appropriateness. I'm not familiar enough with Tome of Battle maneuvers to start judging whether these additions are balanced, appropriate, or fun to play.

Furthermore, there is the sticking point of whether there is a place for humor in a "serious" expansion book. WotC's approach was always that they weren't good at doing humor not that they were opposed to it. See the "Why We're Not Funny" article in their archives if you want the details.

Rather than to step on anyone's toes, would it a bad thing if Falling Anvil were put into an appendix at the end or if notations were made throughout about how to fit it in among the other maneuvers?

Debby

[Haven]

I think making a note to the effect of "If you feel the tone of the fluff is not appropriate for your game, consider renaming some of the maneuvers and rebranding the discipline's lore as supernatural reality-warping martial arts" might suffice. Mechanically speaking, it's just another discipline along the lines of Desert Wind.

[ErrantX]

Personally, I feel that Falling Anvil does -not- fit the theme of the Age of Warriors; I'm a huge fan of keeping it simple and straightforward. I like that sourcebooks don't include humor; they leave it to the professionals and instead focus on what the do know and that's their supplement. If it was included as an appendix in the supplement, then that would be great. It can have it's whole shiny chapter devoted to it.

If the overall consensus is that Falling Anvil should be included in the lore for this netbook in all seriousness, I'd prefer that you leave my work out of it. No offense to you DracoDei, but to all of you if we're not going to take putting this together seriously then I'd prefer my work not be mingled in with it. I take my work seriously enough to keep it straightforward like any WotC product.

Nothing personal, just how I feel on the matter.

-X

[DracoDei]

To be clear, I personally* think that it should be made as easy as possible for a GM to run the setting both with and without Falling Anvil. Whatever format makes that happen the best is what I am in favor of. That may be an appendix, it may not. Such formatting and psychological matters are not my forte. I realize that might be a trickier task to pull off than doing the same thing for Black Rain (as firearms are also not part of the usual concept of D&D), but I have every confidence that the Playground is up to the task.

*I don't pretend to speak for everyone who has spoken up in favor of the discipline.

Errant-X: I would like to say however, that it seems to me that you are may be making an assumption that I am not a "professional" at humor by this project's standards of "professional".

[Mulletmanalive]

On a sheer outsider's point of view, including humour in a game book without making the whole thing silly is pointless and distracting.

It's one of the reasons that i don't like Frank Trollman's work, his humour is, to my mind, horrible and unfunny.

As an additional, discreet chapter, perhaps called "Wage or Wurriers" or something, preferably formatted so that it's off kilter on the page, I think it might work nicely as a completely seperate thing; complete with notes on a silly campaign and some monsters that are totally stupid.

The other way would probably lead to a bleed in the rest of the book, which will lead to some people not wanting to read whole sections because they don't find it funny.

[ErrantX]

Thank you Mulletmanalive for putting it into words better than I was able to. If it's kept completely separate from the whole of it and attached to back as an appendix on crazy weird stuff, that's fine. Comingling Falling Anvil with the rest I feel detracts from the rest.

-X

[pyrefiend]

Devoted Spirit is ALSO "incompatible" with Falling Anvil, so you still could... you just wouldn't have any Devoted Spirit Maneuvers.

I don't see why. I once played a totally insane crusader. I took the chaos-themed maneuvers and fluffed that my "devotion" was fueled by madness- madmen can make great zealots.

Comingling Falling Anvil with the rest I feel detracts from the rest.

I think perhaps we are taking this all a tad too seriously. This PDF, after all, is not going to be sold. It exists to showcase our work. Falling Anvil is not suitable for all campaigns, and there should be a note explaining as such, but the idea that it must be separate from all other disciplines is silly. It has as much value as the rest of them.