[Any D&D] Replacing Alignment with Honor/Dishonor?

[KillianHawkeye]

I've been kicking around an idea for an asian inspired low-magic D&D setting and I've been thinking about ditching alignment in favor of a metric which measures how "honorable" your character is. I'm thinking it would be like a form of reputation, such that doing bad things wouldn't affect your honor rating unless people found out about it. Similarly, bad things you hadn't actually done would still effect you if everyone believed you did them.

I was wondering if there were already some existing systems that modeled this sort of "honor system", including any guidelines for how much points or penalties certain actions should be worth. Can anybody tell me how this type of system has been handled in other settings? For instance, I've heard that Legend of the Five Rings was heavily ruled by the honor system to the point that if your character disobeyed his lord, you were expected to commit suicide. But what I don't know is how detailed is the system? And is it suitable for what I want to use it for? Are there any other systems I should be considering? Has anybody here made up their own system? I'd hate to have to reinvent the wheel if there was already something around I could use.

Many thanks!

[Simba]

I use WoD's Nature/Demeanor system in some of my groups. It is not a replacement but rather an addon, giving more depth to the alignments.

[Sir.Swindle]

Legend of the Five Rings (what OA was based on) used a system like you want some courtier schools got bonuses based on your Honor/Dishonor.

I'd advise having like an infraction/merit point system, X points gives you a rating that adjusts saves vs. circles agains honor/dishonour and extra damage taken from smites.

Keep in mind honor doesn't equal good. It generally means lawful.

[Frog Dragon]

Satyr's Serpents&Sewers has an honor system in place of alingment. You might want to take a look there.

[drengnikrafe]

I suspect outright replacing the alignment requires one very important thing first: Good roleplayers. Alignment is a way for your PCs to have a general distiction as to what their behavior is supposed to be. Without it, your PCs need to have fully fleshed out personalities that make sense, and that they can act by most of the time. Without that, I imagine you will find their behavior erratic, simply because Honor is not a real way to guide behavior. I mean, if you didn't do things, and people's perception of you changes... that's not really you. It'll make NPCs more interesting, though.

[Kurald Galain]

If you like this, I would recommend reading up on Humanity and the other Paths from Vampire the Masquerade. Essentially, they're all codes of honor that are ranked 1 to 10 that people adhere to to prevent degenerating into mindless frenzy.

They are quite clear on the concept that "honorable" isn't "good".

[Jayabalard]

Legend of the Five Rings (what OA was based on) used a system like you want some courtier schools got bonuses based on your Honor/Dishonor.

Legend of the Five rings was created in 1995. Oriental Adventures was published for 1e AD&D in 1985, and it contained an honor system similar to what the OP is asking about. So "based on" doesn't seem quite accurate, especially in that context.

[Anonymouswizard]

This?

[Sir.Swindle]

...PCs need to have fully fleshed out personalities that make sense....

This is always more important than the 2 letters at the top of their sheet any way.

Also most people will still think they are going to be either good or evil an Honor system just determines whats important to magical effects.

OA suggested you could replace alignments with "Honorable" or "Dishonorable" in addition to shadowlands taint, if you want a much simpler system. Don't remember if they mentioned mechanics tho.

methinks i might have been partialy Ninja'd (hooray for popping my ninja cherry)

[Fhaolan]

2nd edition Oriental Adventures had an honour system in it. I never really got around to using it, but it's there.

[LibraryOgre]

As mentioned, Oriental Adventures had an honor system in 1985. This was recapitulated in the Celts campaign sourcebook in the 90s. There's also an honor system in Hackmaster 4th edition, and another in Hackmaster Basic. I rather like the one in Hackmaster basic, though it's more tied to level than anything else.

[KillianHawkeye]

Can anybody post a general description of the honor system used in L5R and how it compares to the one in the SRD?

[LurkerInPlayground]

Didn't they used to have an honor system in one of the old Kara-Tur D&D settings?

[Unwitting Pawn]

GURPS has a disadvantage system which includes codes of honour. It might be worth a look if you're looking for alternatives to an alignment system.

Because GURPS character generation is all points-buy, disadvantages in that system are worth negative points (by taking disadvantages you get extra points to spend elsewhere during chargen). Code of Honour could be worth -5, -10 or -15 points depending on the specific Code. For example, Code of Honour (Pirate's) is worth -5, but Code of Honour (Chivalry) is worth -15 because it is much more restrictive to the character/player actions.

Something like that could be adapted with some thought as to how to replace the points-buy benefit with something else suitable during the D&D chargen process. My main concern would actually be (from what I remember from years ago) that some of D&D's metaphysics are built around the alignment system, are they not? That is a consideration if you're planning to remove alignments entirely.

[Sir.Swindle]

Can anybody post a general description of the honor system used in L5R and how it compares to the one in the SRD?

L5R is a completly different system than D&D. The SRD's honor system was made to work with D&D mechanics, so it is prolly what you should go with.

But as a brief over view every 10 honor points gives you 1 honor score. You get points based on actions and certain school abilities would give you extra dice or free raises based on your or your opponent's honor score.

Also when I said "based on" I was assuming OA was synonymous with the Rokugan campaign setting. Wich IS the L5R stock world. Sorry for the confusion.

[kjones]

Hackmaster has a brilliant (read: insanely complex) honor system. Honor is a stat, increased by being awesome and not taking smack from nobody and decreased by stuff like respecting NPCs and running away from overwhelming danger. It affects your "honor rolls" (sort of like action dice) if it gets too low - or if it gets too high, since the gods start to get annoyed at how cool you are.

Not really what you're looking for here though. It is really cool.

[Fhaolan]

Didn't they used to have an honor system in one of the old Kara-Tur D&D settings?

Yeah, that's the old versions of the Oriental Adventures rulebook. The 3rd edition version was the L5R conversion (which was an odd move on WotC's part. I never really grokked why they did that.), while older editions were a bit more generic and used Kara-Tur (eventually wrapped into the Forgotten Realms campaign.)

[deuxhero]

I'm all for ditching the alignment system (Really, when someone is lawful because of their devotion, and another is chaotic because of their devotion, it is bad). Personally I prefer "reputation" to "honor" but that's just me.

[Unwitting Pawn]

Personally I prefer "reputation" to "honor" but that's just me.

These two things don't need to be mutually exclusive, surely? Either can have positive or negative aspects, or even both at the same time.

[Roderick_BR]

I'm all for ditching the alignment system (Really, when someone is lawful because of their devotion, and another is chaotic because of their devotion, it is bad). Personally I prefer "reputation" to "honor" but that's just me.

What about when an old farmer asks your help, and you decide to cut his head off and loot his house, and there's absolutely no one around in a mile radius that could have seen you, including magic spying? Do you lose reputation?

There's an old joke me and my friends did about Baldur's Gate, where my friend just killed some random NPC in the florest, and he lost reputation. We say the cow that was near there was a guy disguised, and he ran to the city to tell everyone what happened.

And in the end, all these tricks turns into just Alignment with a different name. The trick to use Alignment properly is to not take it too serious.

[hamishspence]

this site appears to combine the two- with "The following actions are condiered honorable/dishonorable for this alignment"

http://www.easydamus.com/alignment.html

Some are a bit out of player control (accused of a crime?) but may reflect the idea that at least some of alignment is how you are perceived.

[KillianHawkeye]

L5R is a completly different system than D&D. The SRD's honor system was made to work with D&D mechanics, so it is prolly what you should go with.

The problem with the SRD version is that the starting honor score is based on the character's alignment. So if I'm going to eliminate alignment, I'll have to figure out something else to base it on.

Going through the SRD, it looks like what I really want is a combination of honor and reputation, sans alignment. That's gonna take some fiddling, though, and I'll probably have to do a lot more work on the setting itself before I'm ready to hash it all out. Oh well, at least I have someplace to start now.

[LibraryOgre]

The problem with the SRD version is that the starting honor score is based on the character's alignment. So if I'm going to eliminate alignment, I'll have to figure out something else to base it on.

Start with a standard base; e.g. "Everyone starts at 10. You don't have a good reputation, and you don't have a bad reputation. You don't have any particular honor, but you're not scum, either."

You can also vary this base with campaign or class. Wizards are held in low esteem? You start with a 5. Everyone loves fighters? You start with a 15. Maybe dwarves start with a higher base honor than elves, because everyone knows that elves are flighty and unreliable, while dwarves are solid as the earth.

[elliott20]

another way to look at it is to also use your social position to effect your honor score. You're a peasant? -5. You're a high ranking samurai? +5. And so on.

In addition, your honor score can act as a modifier when in social situations. That is, having a honor of 15 might also give you a +5 modifier to certain types of checks when dealing with OTHER people with high honor.

Simply put, doing it this way means your honor is not just a composition of your behavior (though your behavior certainly effects it) but also a composition of your character's background and such as well.

Do not forget to create some guidelines for what is considered dishonorable behavior and what is honorable.

Honor change should not always be static either. The higher your honor, chances are, the higher penalty for acting dishonorably. Where as if your honor is already rock bottom, acting dishonorably is not really going to make much of a difference.

[deuxhero]

Prehaps track both positive and negative reputation (not mutually exclusive) with dishonorable things (in general) bringing negative reputation and vice versa.

Anyways, I'd allow a player to choose there starting honor for the range given

[Optimystik]

This?

Ugh. That's the 4e alignment system in different clothing, complete with "Lawful Good = Better Good."