Is Eberron stable?

[Cicciograna]

Hello fellow Playgrounders! I recently bought Eberron Campaign Setting, and after a first partial reading it seemed me a nice setting. But...it seemed to me a little bit too unstable. I mean, fluff-wise Baker made a good work in describing this sort of steampunk setting, but it quickly collapses when game mechanics come into play.

There are very few high level NPC: the world is young and the PC can be the real heroes...or the destroyers. Who could oppose them if a party made by a Wizard, a Cleric, a Druid, an Artificer and some other Tier 1-2 class, maybe with optimized characters, decides to conquer and rule Khorvaire? There's little to do, Dragonmarked houses would be totally useless against such mean machines: Marks of Sentinels and Marks of Warding offer risible abilities, too easily bypassed by ST and other protections commonly available to PC.
Then the Dragonmarked houses... What exactely prevents normal spellcasters to outshine marked memebers of the houses? I mean, the powers granted by the Marks are weak, and their daily uses limit their useless even more... What if a noble contacts House Sivis to encode a message for the captain of his guard, only to hear "Sorry M'lord, I've already used my Illusory script spell today"? What would prevent said noble to contact a 5th level Wizard to cast such spell, thus entirely bypassing House Sivis?
But it's not over! Artificers. I said everything. The second most broken feature of this game after spells are magic items. Now we have a class that is almost immune from the only mean to control the widespread diffusion of magic items in the world, namely XP loss: an Artificier can break a game at about 8th-9th level, and a player doing this would be nigh unstoppable due to said scarcity of high level NPCs. Dulcis in fundo, the class is vital to the setting, as a good share of the fluff heavily depends on their crafting abilities, so it cannot be banned either!

I'm really concerned for this setting. My players are an expert lot, used to high optimization and to the exploit of loopholes and mechanical bugs. I'm not so sure to begin a campaign with them in Eberron, for I fear that they would soon rule the world and be unstoppable.
Tell me that I'm wrong, beacuse I'm enjoying Eberron Campaign Setting...

[kamikasei]

No, Eberron is not stable. It just came out of a hundred years of war and is poised to fall back in to a worse tumult within a few years. The snapshot outlined in the setting books is of a house of cards about to fall down. And yes, the PCs should by their mid-levels be making a major stir in the world.

That's the kind of place it is. High-level characters are going to be movers and shakers. You do have the option of ignoring this by just assuming things hold together in Khorvaire while the party go delving through sealed-off giant ruins in Xen'drik or something, but the fact that the world isn't impervious to the actions of the players is meant to be a feature, not a bug.

[Tavar]

Well, for high level stuff, you're looking at the wrong continent. Remember that one filled with dragons? Yeah, that has some high level stuff for your players.

[Gamerlord]

I agree about the low-level NPC issue, perfect for a evil campaign though!

Anyway, yeah, dragon land is the place to go. And Xen-Drik.

[Cicciograna]

So to have enduring campaigns I have to buy other handbooks, those about Sarlona and Xen'Drik...very clever from WotC...

[NeoVid]

Yeah, Baker was keenly aware of 3.5's balance issues, which is why the setting basically capped at level 14 or so. Level 10+ is enough to make PCs some of the most influential people in the world.

[Gamerlord]

So to have enduring campaigns I have to buy other handbooks, those about Sarlona and Xen'Drik...very clever from WotC...

Or just have a evil campaign, not stupid evil though!

[Tavar]

So to have enduring campaigns I have to buy other handbooks, those about Sarlona and Xen'Drik...very clever from WotC...

Well, it is a company. You expect them to give the stuff away?

[PinkysBrain]

There are very few high level NPC: the world is young

Just want to point out that the theory behind this is that adventurers (ie. the PCs) are special, not because the world is young. Anyway, up to level 12 or so the major cities have equal level NPCs both described in fluff and from demographics. So by the time they can break things D&D is broken anyway :)

Eberron isn't suited for cog in the machine or random dungeon play at higher levels ... by level 12 you have to have an epic campaign underway, where they are questing to either save or rule the world (or if they are that particular brand of insane, destroy it). Once the **** really starts flying you can bring in the dragons or Dalkyr or native critters from the plane of dreams etc etc.

What's so important about stability?

[Cicciograna]

Well, it is a company. You expect them to give the stuff away?

No, but when I bought Forgotten Realms I didn't find any impediment to having long lasting campaigns: I had everything I needed to depict low-, mid- and high-level scenarios...while with Eberron I have to limit myself to the first 10 levels or so and then aPCalypse begins...

[PinkysBrain]

Isn't that better than delaying apocalypse to epic level where the rules become an even bigger joke?

[Prime32]

No, but when I bought Forgotten Realms I didn't find any impediment to having long lasting campaigns: I had everything I needed to depict low-, mid- and high-level scenarios...while with Eberron I have to limit myself to the first 10 levels or so and then aPCalypse begins...

So giving dozens of individuals (many of whom are insane) enough power to wipe countries from the map makes things more stable how?

As for the dragonmarks only working 1/day, the important thing is that they can be used to power at-will magic items with related abilities (or in some cases the items just work much better when their user has a certain dragonmark). Plus it gives them more prereqs for magic item crafting.

[hamishspence]

Player's Guide to Eberron has a few suggestions for handling epic.

Such as upgrading the villains (Vol from lich to demilich) bringing in Xoriat and Dal Quor as major problems, etc.

Doesn't say much about players breaking the economy though.

[Prime32]

Another option would be travelling back in time to when the dragons fight demons, the giants fight quori, or the orcs fight the daelkyr.

[kpenguin]

So to have enduring campaigns I have to buy other handbooks, those about Sarlona and Xen'Drik...very clever from WotC...

How so? You can have a campaign in Khovaire that is enduring.

[hiryuu]

And then the PCs discover that a series of continent-spanning organizations with ties to every merchant, innkeeper, and blacksmith that have stockpiles of ancient untested artifacts can make life a real big headache even IF you can move mountains.

Superman can't fight Lex Luthor directly, remember?

Even then, there's tons of high level threats in Eberron. Daelkyr start at CR 20. Most of the major villains are 12+. The Lords of the Dust have divine ranks and don't make a move on the world because it would upset the balance of power... in fact, most villains don't move on their plans openly because it would cause a collapse of world power, just like you'd expect from an actual world. Not only that, but a bunch of recently-empowered weirdos taking flashy and open warfare on organizations is a surefire target for anyone who wants to keep themselves safe.

[Cicciograna]

So giving dozens of individuals (many of whom are insane) enough power to wipe countries from the map makes things more stable how?

This way.

As for the dragonmarks only working 1/day, the important thing is that they can be used to power at-will magic items with related abilities (or in some cases the items just work much better when their user has a certain dragonmark). Plus it gives them more prereqs for magic item crafting.

Have a group with a Wizard and an Artificer and you can defeat every House in their field of operations.

Isn't that better than delaying apocalypse to epic level where the rules become an even bigger joke?

Epic levels are a mess. But they are optional.
In Core there are 20 levels: it's sad to use only half of them.

How so? You can have a campaign in Khovaire that is enduring.

Okay, I admit that I'm not the best DM here. I tend to railroad a lot, and I'm a little slow to react to unforeseen actions by my players. Maybe I'm not fit to DM a game in Eberron beacuse I fear unpredicted actions of wanton destruction from my players. One of them is especially fond of bullying people weaker than him: once at level 10 or 11, what could I put on the field to oppose him, when his party mates are there to protect him? And given that he's a bit of a powergamer he would be even more dangerous...
This is why if I ever DMed in Eberron I would end the campaign at about level 10-12: after that, my players would be completely out of control...

[kpenguin]

Indeed. Sucks to the party that pisses off the Lords of Dust and the Chamber.

[CockroachTeaParty]

Baker wrote a great deal concerning the Dreaming Dark in a blog somewhere... That should provide plenty of ideas for high level challenges.

My most recent Eberron game ended around lv. 15, I believe. The party was fighting at the center of a battle to determine the very outcome of the Draconic Prophecy, and the birth of a new Progenitor Dragon. They fought all sorts of crazy stuff: a shadow dragon, a daelkyr and a teratomorph, an elder brain, and even a couple balors (they were a well-optomized party, and they had help from a bunch of blue dragons and the Undying court, as well as pre-buffs from the Speaker of the Flame...).

Perhaps the biggest threat to the party was there own divisions in alignment, motivation, religion, and goals. They just about tore themselves apart by the end of it, and many of them did not have very 'happy' endings by the end of it. After the dust settled, Eberron was forever changed, and the world faced a new era of uncertainty.

So I'd heartily encourage sticking with Eberron, and not to let the low power level of the rest of the world scare you. There will always be a handful of individuals of very comparable power to the PCs anyway, and they should become recurring nemeses. House Phiarlan assassins, agents of the Dreaming Dark; my PCs had their hands full with a variety of unpleasant enemies.

So go nuts, I say. The PCs should be the biggest deal around. What they choose to do (or not do) should define the future of Khorvaire by the end of it, if not the rest of the world. Make them feel special.

[awa]

Eberron at higher levels is a diffrent mentality then say forgotten realms. In forgotten realms their are so many epic character running around the pcs have little to know ability to affect the status Quo at least not until epic levels. In Ebrron they can affect the world in a meaningful way at much lower levels.

So yes its less stable but that's not necessarily a bad thing the world will change in response to the pcs actions

[Dracomorph]

I thought I'd respond to a few of your points. I know this might sound like I'm just dismissing your arguments, but that's not my intent.

This way.

Didn't this almost end our world during the Cold War? Not a good strategy.

Have a group with a Wizard and an Artificer and you can defeat every House in their field of operations.

Well, yes and no. Yes, the PCs can create lots of crazy items, but the NPCs pretty clearly don't follow DMG item creation rules. If they did, then a lot of the more unusual Last War technology wouldn't have been possible, because the highest level characters on the mainland mostly ended up dead.

Okay, I admit that I'm not the best DM here. I tend to railroad a lot, and I'm a little slow to react to unforeseen actions by my players. Maybe I'm not fit to DM a game in Eberron beacuse I fear unpredicted actions of wanton destruction from my players. One of them is especially fond of bullying people weaker than him: once at level 10 or 11, what could I put on the field to oppose him, when his party mates are there to protect him? And given that he's a bit of a powergamer he would be even more dangerous...
This is why if I ever DMed in Eberron I would end the campaign at about level 10-12: after that, my players would be completely out of control...

Well, you're probably better than you give yourself credit for, TBH. Knowing your limitations is a big part of being a good DM. But you're forgetting something: organizations are quite a bit stronger than the sum of their parts.

If your player is likely to commit random acts of violence or bullying, then word would spread about this. The Dragonmarked Houses look after their own, and with all the reports of this guy coming in, he'd likely be persona non grata at any sort of shop very quickly. Being unable to trade in his equipment could provide some incentive for being less of a jerk, even if there are ways around it.

There are also a few people of significant power that he'd be bumping into at that level, including the rulers of countries. Major players like Kaius III, Boranel and Aurala would start being interested in keeping his behavior above board, and if a nice letter doesn't work, they're capable of bringing in the honor guard and taking down a 10th+ level party. Or sending in really powerful assassins. Just because they aren't listed in the campaign setting doesn't mean there aren't a few high-level mercenaries around.

[Cicciograna]

Guys, I must say: your answers were reassuring. I hope to entice my players in a way that they come to love this setting instead of pushing their way in it in the most destructive way. Thank you.

And Dracomorph, you didn't have to reassure me on your good intentions: discussions require the proposition of concepts and their evaluation, said concepts can be accepted or rejected. Thank you, however, for you polite statement

[Mongoose87]

Have you considered using it as the setting for an E6 campaign?

[jmbrown]

There are very few high level NPC: the world is young and the PC can be the real heroes...or the destroyers. Who could oppose them if a party made by a Wizard, a Cleric, a Druid, an Artificer and some other Tier 1-2 class, maybe with optimized characters, decides to conquer and rule Khorvaire? There's little to do, Dragonmarked houses would be totally useless against such mean machines: Marks of Sentinels and Marks of Warding offer risible abilities, too easily bypassed by ST and other protections commonly available to PC.

Organizing such a campaign is the first wrench in the player's cogs. When you think about what actually goes through to amass an army, take over a region, quell rebellion, and establish stability would make your head spin. So the level 10 PCs have successfully captured a small village. The rest of Khorvaire has just imposed an embargo on goods and there's 2,000 mouths to feed.

Then the Dragonmarked houses... What exactely prevents normal spellcasters to outshine marked memebers of the houses? I mean, the powers granted by the Marks are weak, and their daily uses limit their useless even more... What if a noble contacts House Sivis to encode a message for the captain of his guard, only to hear "Sorry M'lord, I've already used my Illusory script spell today"? What would prevent said noble to contact a 5th level Wizard to cast such spell, thus entirely bypassing House Sivis?

The dragonmarked houses hold a monopoly over spell services. The same wizard who can cast illusory script is likely a member of House Sivis himself. If a lone wizard sets up shop offering dragonmarked services at a cheaper price, he's going to find his life miserable. It's difficult to continue research when your supplies suddenly disappear and people are leaving flaming arrows outside your door.

But it's not over! Artificers. I said everything. The second most broken feature of this game after spells are magic items. Now we have a class that is almost immune from the only mean to control the widespread diffusion of magic items in the world, namely XP loss: an Artificier can break a game at about 8th-9th level, and a player doing this would be nigh unstoppable due to said scarcity of high level NPCs. Dulcis in fundo, the class is vital to the setting, as a good share of the fluff heavily depends on their crafting abilities, so it cannot be banned either!

And the PCs aren't the only artificiers in the land and NPC artificiers are usually members of the same guild or house.

Think of the houses as a union. As a union worker, you do what the union does. You take a break when the union tells you and you strike when they do. If you work outside the union, you draw the ire of that union. Unions are just as much about politics as they are giving workers fair rights. A lone artificier tries circumventing the normal channels of magic item creation and what happens to him? He could find his supplies suddenly tainted, threatening messages whispered in his ear at night, or even a raptor head in his bed.

I'm really concerned for this setting. My players are an expert lot, used to high optimization and to the exploit of loopholes and mechanical bugs. I'm not so sure to begin a campaign with them in Eberron, for I fear that they would soon rule the world and be unstoppable.

The stronger you get in any setting the more you attract the ire of powerful individuals. Your PCs want to conquer Khorvaire? Good on them. Eventually something big and nasty is going to be drawn to this sudden shift in power. The entirety of the country could rally together to try and take down a growing threat. There's not much even a single level 20 character can do to circumvent 500,000 armed and angry people bearing down on them except hide, change identities, and try again.

[Draxar]

As for the dragonmarks only working 1/day, the important thing is that they can be used to power at-will magic items with related abilities (or in some cases the items just work much better when their user has a certain dragonmark). Plus it gives them more prereqs for magic item crafting.

This. Essentially, the Dragonmarks, as well as the specific spell-like's they grant, also grant them some kind of metaphysical dominion over the concepts associated with their Mark, meaning that there are all kinds of magic items that work very well with the marks. And there's the prestige classes, several of which are rather nice.

Also, look at the caster level on those things. A level 8 character, with whatever 4/Dragonmark Heir 4, has a caster level of 14 for their Dragonmark ability, and their Greater Mark will be at least level 5 spell, inaccessible to anyone else till level 9, if not 6-7, even further off. To take that further, a Heir of Orien with a single level of Wayfarer Guide can take himself and 6 others 2250 miles, twice a day. Which is enough to cross Khorvaire in a single day.

In a setting where few people reach high levels, these abilities are quite potent.

[Loren]

When it comes to matters of power the DM has a few tricks in his/her corner. Most of these boil down to control of information. So what if there aren't any NPCs passed the level x, the players don't know that (I always tell my players to not read the Campaign setting because I change things and it'll mislead them). So long as they don't necessarily know what to expect they need to play more conservatively (to emphasize the point have opponants attack them, or people they are close to every so often). Also the DM has the power of creation. If you want a high level creature all you need to do is pull it out of a book or stat it out and boom! it's there.

As far as powerfull PC's taking over a world think about this, they often have a considerable power to destroy, but rarely can they do much beyond that. The power to destroy does not translate directly into political power. Think about what happened in British controlled India. The people of India decided they won't obey the British. The British couldn't do anything but kill they wanted to work for them, which wouldn't accomplish their goals (check out Hindi swraj "india home rule" for a better understanding of how this worked). In a more contemporary context think of Iraq and Afghanistan and how much effort it takes to dominate two relatively small countries.


If you want some help running an ebberon game I recommend the first series of adventures published for the setting (shadow of the last war, vampires blade, and graps of the emeral claw). They follow the adventure in the campaign setting. The Whispers of the Vampires Blade, IHMO, shows the depth possible at low levels with some of the coolest encounters I've seen yet.

[Gamerlord]

Personally I think we all need to ask ourselves the inevitable:

What happens when all the important NPCs die? Because it WILL happen.

[Frosty]

The PCs are going about it the wrong way if they're trying to "conquer" things militarily. Get a high level Beguiler and Bard team together, and they'll rule the world faster than any party using brute force.

[sonofzeal]

Hello fellow Playgrounders! I recently bought Eberron Campaign Setting, and after a first partial reading it seemed me a nice setting. But...it seemed to me a little bit too unstable. I mean, fluff-wise Baker made a good work in describing this sort of steampunk setting, but it quickly collapses when game mechanics come into play.

There are very few high level NPC: the world is young and the PC can be the real heroes...or the destroyers. Who could oppose them if a party made by a Wizard, a Cleric, a Druid, an Artificer and some other Tier 1-2 class, maybe with optimized characters, decides to conquer and rule Khorvaire? There's little to do, Dragonmarked houses would be totally useless against such mean machines: Marks of Sentinels and Marks of Warding offer risible abilities, too easily bypassed by ST and other protections commonly available to PC.

Yeah, by level 12 (and certainly by level 15), PCs suffer from Big Fish Small Pond, which can be fun. Remember thought that there's a fair number of reeeeeeeeally powerful guys out there, they just aren't in Khorvaire (or rather that 99.9% of the population isn't aware of them). The Dragons, the Lords of Dust, the Dalkyr, and the Quorri all offer substantial opposition to PC plans. Yes, the PCs can conquer and hold a kingdom - great for them, you can have all sorts of fun with that - but there will still be forces they have to watch out for. Lord help them if their conquerings tampers with the prophesy, for one.

If your PCs are in this power range, make sure they're aware of the prophesy, and how powerful its defenders are. That'll curb a lot of reckless action.

Then the Dragonmarked houses... What exactely prevents normal spellcasters to outshine marked memebers of the houses? I mean, the powers granted by the Marks are weak, and their daily uses limit their useless even more... What if a noble contacts House Sivis to encode a message for the captain of his guard, only to hear "Sorry M'lord, I've already used my Illusory script spell today"? What would prevent said noble to contact a 5th level Wizard to cast such spell, thus entirely bypassing House Sivis?

A 5th level Wizard can, but House Sivis also has 5th level Wizards, and their Wizards get the extra edge of having the Dragonmark. In the short run, maybe the non-Sivis Wizard can get a profit, but in the long run Sivis has the edge and can grind him into the dirt in price wars. What they have isn't a replacement for actual casters, but it's a network and support system and bankroll built up over a century of that little extra edge coming into play time and time again. Do not screw around with the Dragonmark houses, because they've been there, they've seen your kind before, and they know exactly how to deal with it.

Until you're level 12-15 or so, then you can dictate terms to the Lolipope herself. =P

But it's not over! Artificers. I said everything. The second most broken feature of this game after spells are magic items. Now we have a class that is almost immune from the only mean to control the widespread diffusion of magic items in the world, namely XP loss: an Artificier can break a game at about 8th-9th level, and a player doing this would be nigh unstoppable due to said scarcity of high level NPCs. Dulcis in fundo, the class is vital to the setting, as a good share of the fluff heavily depends on their crafting abilities, so it cannot be banned either!

Artificer brokenness is contingent on gp inflow. My favorite quote for them: "nothing is impossible, what you want is merely expensive". I've played an Artificer, and while I was the most powerful person in the party, that's mostly because I'm the only optimizer. The class isn't nearly as bad as most people assume, given reasonable gp inflow/outflow.

Oh, and time is key. Even with a squad of Dedicated Wrights, time is a key issue at higher level. As a DM, if you limit time then Artificers fall substantially in power.

An Artificer can break the game at 8th level, given enough time and starting resources, but most of the really powerful stuff will leave him hemorrhaging gp/xp and desperate for a week off so he can re-craft all the expendables he blew. If your players understand that they need to conserve and think about long term efficiency, it becomes a much more reasonable class.

I'm really concerned for this setting. My players are an expert lot, used to high optimization and to the exploit of loopholes and mechanical bugs. I'm not so sure to begin a campaign with them in Eberron, for I fear that they would soon rule the world and be unstoppable.
Tell me that I'm wrong, beacuse I'm enjoying Eberron Campaign Setting...

Even if your players are pro, there's a whole lot of safe fun to be had in the levels 3-8 range. Past that, send them to any of the other three continents and things will be fine.

[AslanCross]

Eberron is definitely not stable. Actions a group of PCs, ESPECIALLY if they're stupid evil/chaotic stupid, should have serious repercussions.

While rulers aren't the highest-level characters around, they could definitely have lackeys who are---not everyone who is of a high level wants to be on the throne.

There are also likely to be Rakshasa cabals, Quori agents, and maybe even Daelkyr cults that have penetrated deep into regular humanoid society. If the PCs mess with the wrong crowd, they're not guaranteed to only bully humanoids. For all they know, the foppish noble they decided to kill for chuckles was a high level Ak'Chazar Rakshasa.

If the PCs mess with the stability of THE WORLD itself, they could face an army of dragons flying in from Argonnessen. That's the hook I used for my RHOD campaign. If the PCs don't do it, the dragons will, and they will do it very thoroughly. The converse of this is true---if the PCs mess up the world too much, they risk drawing the attention of epic-level threats.

The last time anyone threatened the integrity of the Material Plane, the dragons destroyed a continent-spanning empire of giants. Barring Pun-pun and Gate-chain cheese, you're looking at an army of approximately 50,000 dragons here. :P