My players are REALLY frustrating

[starwoof]

Warning, huge block of ranty frustrated text.

This is why I don't DM.

Last night I finally managed to get my friends together for a game of DnD. My intention was to start around 6:30 but they are all so ridiculously ADD (lets get food! Lets sit here and play guitar! Tra la la) that we didn't start until 9:30.

After I recap the last session three times (what happened? I wasn't listening, I was talking.) we finally got under way. The new players introduced their characters; Voltron the Cleric and Snizzy Snazbullets the Elven Ranger. They seem to find my exasperation hilarious. It takes us a few minutes after that to get back to roleplaying and they set out to follow the trail of some ghouls they fought last time. When they found the river they spent 20 minutes trying to find a good way for the full plate clad cleric could cross because the player who was playing an aquatic character refused to help because he was 'hiding'. Eventually I just decided that he could walk across, since the river wasn't supposed to be a huge challenge.

They found the dungeon entrance, a massive slab of stone with some runes written in ancient common. "Here Lies Eirikr, the Everking". The locathah player squeezes through the gap and 'runs to here', placing his mini on the map. Naturally he gets hit by a blade trap before being clusterfudged by wights. This battle is fairly easy, but earns a lot of coins that they split up immediately.

Then they found the secret door that was the entrance to the main dungeon. The room is a large natural cavern with several platforms above a deep, dark pit. There are 4 elves here all dressed in black leather armor with bat wings on their helmets. The group stops to laugh and go off topic for like three minutes. One of them goes off into the corner to play guitar. I just got frustrated and told them to roll initiative. They asked why they weren't allowed to parley and I told them that the elves heard them talking about elves from dragon age and got mad.

This combat is with four elven rangers, all one level higher than the party. Since the party is four gestalt, characters, it was supposed to be kind of an easy fight on tricky terrain. Halfway through the fight though, I tell the sorceror//monk to make a spot check, and he feels a chill breeze from off to his left. He goes off to investigate, figuring the rest of the party can handle 2 elven rangers (which is understandable. He finds a secret door though, and decides to open it and run in.

While this is going on the rest of the party is finishing up with the elves. The cleric is way up in the front bashing the last one while the party's ranger supports with arrows. The locathah fell and is now hiding 60 ft below in a pile of sticks he found, because he is low on hit points from walking into the trap at the beginning so many times. The ranger finishes off the last elf right after the sorceror monk discovers that the room behind the secret door he found isn't empty like he assumed it was; it had a Frost Salamander in it.

Now I put the frost salamander (CR 7) in for a few reasons. It was an interesting monster and it was tough enough to make a good showing of itself before the party took it down. Key words being 'the party'. I don't know what possessed an experienced dungeon crawler to enter another room without the party and then try to solo the monster there (who I warned him looked very tough and mean).

And I don't really know why right after that another party member did the EXACT SAME THING on his initiative and ran into another room, only to find more wights and a necromancer.

So the encounter drags on for a good while longer. The monk's player gets really mad at me when I inform him that his punches seem to be doing almost nothing, and he guesses that it has DR 10 (its actually 15). THe cleric gets webbed and stabbed a few times by the necromancer, then he gets really mad at me when a wight gives him a negative level. He refuses to write it down.

The ranger gets out his iPhone or whatever and watches youtube videos with the locathah.

Eventually they did win in the end, after convincing the locathah's player to actually help (he threw orb's of fire at the salamander and killed it in like 2 throws). Then they complain to me about how this dungeon was too hard and it was just one giant combat and it took way too long (2 and a half hours). They didn't seem to really understand that making half the dungeon into one fight was pretty much their fault for splitting the party of four into three groups.

The fights were supposed to be quick! Why would they make it all into one giant fight that takes the whole session!!! Aaargh! I even made some puzzles for the dungeon they haven't seen yet.

Maybe it's my fault and my dungeon WAS too hard. They are just so frustrating to play with. They always tell me how they want to play dnd but all they want to do is hang out.

Urgh!!! I just had to vent somewhere. Does anyone else have problems like this?

[Tengu_temp]

If they frustrate you do much, why do you agree to DM for them? Next time they ask you, refuse.

[Knaight]

On the one hand, those focus issues are frustrating. On the other, the dungeon sounds contrived. Among other things, why would the characters want to go in it, why would all those creatures work together, why wouldn't they help eachother out and turn things into a giant battle if they did work together, and what exactly is going on in the game beyond dungeon crawling? The game sounds like a long grindfest, and while the tactics were suspect, it didn't sound like much fun at all. And it does sound like the people are there mainly to socialize, and don't want to focus on gaming.

Still, your DMing sounds pretty awful, and I don't blame them for getting bored. But, pretty much everyone either starts off awful, or has a lot of background as a player under GMs who are really good but started off awful, so that may well end up being a temporary condition.

[AslanCross]

Urgh. I've had parties of easily-distracted people too, but this is just bad. I'd say just drop them and refuse to DM. The reason why nobody else wants to DM, probably, is that they're aware how sucky a job it is with this group.

[Temotei]

...Nice.

[Worira]

Good thing the monk made the spot check to feel a breeze.

[RiOrius]

Your dungeon sounds totally reasonable for a normal party. Your players, however, seem to be more slapstick and less focused than a normal party. Presumably you want to play a real game of D&D, whereas they mostly wanna goof around and chuck some dice.

So your options are either to

A) Try to shoehorn them into a more serious campaign. I don't recommend this.

B) Try to build the campaign based on their preferences. Let it be a goofball campaign. Could still be a lot of fun, if you're up for that.

C) Don't play D&D with these guys. If you don't wanna play their way, and they don't wanna play yours, this is probably the best choice for all.

[Rasman]

I can feel your pain, we have a 3 hour rule, as a running joke, with our DM. Anytime he sets a time for a session, it is guarenteed that it won't start within 3 hours of the time set. We broke that rule last time, but that's because none of us had been able to get together for a month. We tend to have come cutting up and off-topicness, but as the DM you really just need to take control with stuff like that. Our DM can be part of the off-topic and then just suddenly turn the "world" back on. At which point, you're either paying attention or not. If you're not, you miss out on important info that, had you listened to, might not have gotten you maimed.

Promoting teamwork in a dungon might be something you want to look at. A guy I work with, also a DM, has noticed that the group he plays with is very much so an individualist type group, so he's working on traps and creatures that ALL of his party will have to take part in solving and defeating.

As a DM, you can't be afraid of killing someone off either. D&D is supposed to be fun, but if you die, reroll. Just be sure to incure some penalties if they have to reroll, like their character must be a level or two below the rest of the party, or something along those lines.

[FoE]

You made some grievous errors.

1) You allowed the presence of New, Shiny Things at the gaming table. Always remember that the average D&D player is a dull-witted apeman prone to distraction by New, Shiny Things. Forbid them.

2) You wouldn't expect a Kindergarten student to go a full day without recess ; similarily, you can't expect a player to hold to a strict timeline. Allow them to spend some time bulls***ing before the game starts. Establish a fake start time that you announce to the players and a real start time that you would like to achieve. (Tell the players you'd like to start around 6:30 p.m. when you'd actually be satisfied to start around 8:30 p.m.)

3) Don't stick to your game plan so strictly. You shouldn't save players from their idiocy, but if you have a situation that's headed for a TPK, you need to nip it in the bud. Just because you had a frost salamander in your original plan doesn't mean the frost salamander has to show up at the exact same spot. And don't freak out because your players get into a little OOC discussion at the table.

4) Players pick dumb names for their PCs. There's nothing to be done about it, though there's no rule saying you can't mock them for it.

5) Consider this: maybe they don't want to play D&D? Or maybe they don't care for your DMing? Maybe they're trying to send you a message here and you're just not getting it.

[starwoof]

Well they tell me they want to play DnD. They always tell me that I should DM too, so I don't think that's the problem. I think that when they say they want to play DnD they actually just want to hang out. I don't mind a little OOC discussion, we all do it, its just when they go off to play guitar or totally ignore me when I want to get back to playing several minutes later that it bugs me.

I'm not going to make excuses for myself not being a very good DM though. I don't get in a lot of practice anymore and I've never pretended to be especially good at it anyway.

As many people have suggested, I think I'm just gonna stop DMing for this specific group of people. Since my old group was spread to the four winds these are the only guys I have to DM for and their play style is so different from mine it really bothers me. I still have my other group (that I play a cleric in, and is much more serious), so at least I can still get my DnD fix.

[Trodon]

Yeah, my friends are kind of like that, the last oh 4 times I tried to dm for them they quit about 30 minutes in. So that was about 8 total hours of preparing that went to waist. Not fun stuff.

[Lycanthromancer]

Yeah, my friends are kind of like that, the last oh 4 times I tried to dm for them they quit about 30 minutes in. So that was about 8 total hours of preparing that went to waist. Not fun stuff.

A second on the lips means a lifetime on the hips?

[R. Shackleford]

That three hour lull between arrival and starting is pretty common from my history RP'ing; talking and playing Magic or eating or whatever. DND is the big event of the week.

Sounds like your friends just aren't compatible as a RP group for you.

Though remember that improv is an important DM'ing skill.

[Zincorium]

Differing expectations.

You (seem to) want a long, punctually started game, with lots of character acting, clever tactics, and tough battle scenes.

These players either A. Do not want the same thing or B. You are doing (or not doing) something that you aren't aware of that is setting the game off.

So, ask questions. Use what they tell you, and if they tell you things you don't like, walk away. But you can manage the group if it's that important to you, regardless.

[DabblerWizard]

Starwoof: As a guy who happens to really enjoy DMing, these are my thoughts, observations, and suggestions.

Time Lapse

The fact that it took your friends 3 hours to actually sit down and play, would be incredibly frustrating if it happened to me. Frankly, I wouldn't have it. After about half an hour of waiting for them to stop fooling around, I would tell my friends that (a) I'm ready to start, or (b) I'm taking a break, and they can call me when they're ready to get to it. This way, I don't let my frustration build up, and I distance myself from what's annoying me.

I happen to spend a good deal of time preparing for a gaming session, and my friends and I only have a limited time to play... It would be incredibly disrespectful of them to disregard my efforts.

On the other hand, friends like to socialize, and that's part of the essence of a d&d game... an expanded form of socialization, mixed with healthy doses of escapism (put into very general terms).

And yet, if taken seriously, d&d isn't just another time to hang out. For the non-spontaneous-heavy DM (and for roleplay and optimization oriented players), this game can involve a lot of preparation and a lot of sweat (but hopefully no blood or tears).

If your friends need this time to socialize, because they're not hanging out a lot otherwise, you can do two things (a) allow them to generally socialize a bit as part of your "pre-gaming" ritual (up to a certain extent... I'd say no more than an hour) or (b) find a way to hang out together, before you all get together to play... go out to eat somewhere, for instance.

On the other hand, if they're already hanging out plenty, and they're just goofing around, and not taking you seriously, letting them know that their actions bother you, is probably the next best thing.

Recaps

Not everyone needs or wants recaps. I also had a trend where recaps generally preceded the start of a session, and at one point, my players asked me to stop, because they all basically remembered the story, and were willing to go on their memory / note taking.

If there's a crucial plot point relevant to an encounter, just reminding players, at that moment, isn't a bad policy. There's no reason to fault player memory after all.

Disengaging

You brought up multiple instances where your players weren't paying attention, were losing attention, or were entirely disengaging from the game in the middle of it.

To avoid this at the beginning of a game, I don't start until my players are quiet and attentive... generally I know this is the case when they sit there waiting for me to start the ball rolling.

If they lose attention in the middle of a game, it's probably because they're bored. Sometimes that can't be helped, and the player just has to deal with it.

On the other hand, there's a difference between boredom and being disrespectful by getting onto a laptop or phone and completely distancing yourself from the game. I would call my players out if they did that.

Character names and role play oriented players

Voltron and Snizzy Snazbullets? If I was playing a very light hearted game, I wouldn't mind character names like that. Otherwise, if I was DMing a more serious game, where off handed humor detracts from the play style, I would expect my players to be joking... if they weren't I would ask them to change the name into something more thematically appropriate.

The fact that your players thought your exasperation was hilarious, suggests that (a) they don't respect you very much, (b) your face was funny and they didn't think you were serious, (c) they didn't understand what was bothering you and just reacted with a laugh, or (d) they're teenagers

My friends wouldn't laugh at me like that, but if they did, I would very calmly explain why I was bothered by their actions. (My friends and I are in our early 20s, so this suggestion is likely easier among us, than it might be between 15 year olds, for instance)

Seperation of gamism and realism

When your players laughed and went off tangent because of your 'elves that wear winged helmets', they were obviously being disrespectful on multiple levels (once again disengaging from the gaming session, laughing at you, etc). I would find this annoying too. I wouldn't let my frustration alter their in-game experience. You're breaching the "Fourth Wall"... making a meta-gaming error... allowing your personal feelings to change your players' gaming experience. That kind of behavior ruins games, no matter if it's done by players, or DMs. It's best to deal with these things, instead of ignoring them, or getting retribution in some petty way.


I hope these points were helpful.

[doliest]

I'm stuck with a party like this; although not nearly as bad. The worst part is building characters; we've got a member who refuses to build their character before the game and always shows up at the first session and takes an hour...at least. To give advice on your problems......I'd let their idiocy kill them allow, then maybe revive them in a way that punishes them. My party made some bad decisions and so I let them die, THEN revived them as free-willed undead.

[Foeofthelance]

I know I'm going to get in trouble for this, but hear me out.

Players are like sheep. They are simple creatures, with simple needs. Some want action, some want drama, and they all pretty much want to have fun. Get them on their own and they can do fine, put them in a group and their combined IQ seems to suffer from some bizarre formula involving plenty of subtraction, division, and square roots. So it is up to you, as the DM, to serve as a shepherd of sorts, and provide them with something interesting enough to keep their attention.

In my experiences, combat will not do this, but monsters will. Once you've managed to get them settled down (which is another difficult task that I really don't have much advice for) try throwing something that makes them stop and think for a second. Some of my favorites have been animated suits of armor with corpses stuffed inside (really puzzled the group when the healing magic didn't obliterate the thing, but instead seemed to make it more powerful) and a trio of dragon golems, two of which could shield the other from attacks, while it was the only that could attack back (it was a very combat oriented group, and they suddenly learned how to be sneaky). Basically what it comes down is if you can predict what they will do, through a hiccup into their plans. Just try and make sure that it doesn't serve as a perfect counter to them, just interferes with their plans a little bit.

I hope this helps.

[Vizzerdrix]

Warning, huge block of ranty frustrated text.

This is why I don't DM.

Last night I finally managed to get my friends together for a game of DnD. My intention was to start around 6:30 but they are all so ridiculously ADD (lets get food! Lets sit here and play guitar! Tra la la) that we didn't start until 9:30.

1 Negative level per half hour. Removable at a rate of 1/hour of play. Grant a 1 hour settling time at the start for ordering of foods and whatnot.

Maybe it's my fault and my dungeon WAS too hard. They are just so frustrating to play with. They always tell me how they want to play dnd but all they want to do is hang out.

Urgh!!! I just had to vent somewhere. Does anyone else have problems like this?

Only thing hard about that is dealing with those types of players. After the first two hours I'd have just packed it in and gone home.

[kjones]

Then they found the secret door that was the entrance to the main dungeon. The room is a large natural cavern with several platforms above a deep, dark pit. There are 4 elves here all dressed in black leather armor with bat wings on their helmets. The group stops to laugh and go off topic for like three minutes. One of them goes off into the corner to play guitar. I just got frustrated and told them to roll initiative. They asked why they weren't allowed to parley and I told them that the elves heard them talking about elves from dragon age and got mad.

I was with you up until here. Don't railroad your players like this. Nine times out of ten, a negotiation is more interesting than a battle anyway. (Of course, eight times out of ten, it ends up in a battle regardless...)

[valadil]

I can't tell if they want to play D&D or just hang out. They certainly don't want to play it with the same level of seriousness as you.

My suggestion is to stop planning for game. Just improvise something. Then it doesn't matter if you start late and it doesn't matter if they get distracted. You won't have wasted your time prepping for them and you won't get pissed if they don't end up playing.

[Count Dravda]

DabblerWizard, that was a nice post. You put up a lot of good points.

Yeah, it doesn't really sound like your players want to play D&D, or at least not as serious a game as you do. I agree that while the players might be feeling something understandable, they were pretty frickin' rude in expressing it.

So I would relax and run a fun, rules-light game with them. Expect more chatting and guitar strumming than dice rolling. To me (and probably to you) that doesn't sound like an adequate D&D session, so I would recommend finding (or training) another group that shares your play style. You can fight the tide or you can surf on it. Your choice.

-Count Dravda

[bringatoweltoo]

I'm wondering if these guys don't so much mean that they want to play D&D as they want to spend the night gaming. You might try them on something that requires a lot less focus and planning - Kobolds Ate My Baby! or HOL might go over well with them.

[toddex]

I am sorry but people like you frustrate me, D&D to me isnt about schedules and structure. Its the geeks poker, its about friends coming together hanging out and having fun. Which is what your friends seemed to be doing, apparently you dont like having fun.

[FoE]

I am sorry but people like you frustrate me, D&D to me isnt about schedules and structure. Its the geeks poker, its about friends coming together hanging out and having fun. Which is what your friends seemed to be doing, apparently you dont like having fun.

But you can just "hang out" at any time. Poker requires a deck of cards, a cursory knowledge of the rules and a table, plus some kind of tokens, chips or cash to be used for betting.

D&D requires AT A MINIMUM the purchase of rulebooks (or the borrowing/theft/inheritance of rulebooks) and the time it takes to write up character sheets. And that's assuming the DM improvises an adventure/uses a pre-written module.)The more time you spend on "hanging out," the less time there is for D&D. Why waste all that effort (and expense, if you're purchasing books and miniatures) if you aren't going to play the game? Why not just get together for night of playing cards/video games/drinking?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

I am sorry but people like you frustrate me, D&D to me isnt about schedules and structure. Its the geeks poker, its about friends coming together hanging out and having fun. Which is what your friends seemed to be doing, apparently you dont like having fun.

Anarchist!

Starwoof: As a guy who happens to really enjoy DMing, these are my thoughts, observations, and suggestions.

DESTROY THEM ALL!!!

There. Wasn't that easier to type and more practical to carry out?

[DabblerWizard]

DabblerWizard, that was a nice post. You put up a lot of good points.

Thank you Count Dravda. I appreciate the compliment.

[DabblerWizard]

I am sorry but people like you frustrate me, D&D to me isnt about schedules and structure. Its the geeks poker, its about friends coming together hanging out and having fun. Which is what your friends seemed to be doing, apparently you dont like having fun.

I agree that d&d can be a "geek's poker" i.e. a very light hearted, spontaneous, game. I also think, that it can be highly structured, and supremely involved.

The difference is preferential. It's like choosing between Tetris on level 1 and Civilization IV on hard mode. Each game has its place, and it's okay to prefer one to the other. It's possible to have fun with either level of involvement. Different moods and play styles and levels of sobriety (for all of us that are of age *ahem* ), can effect these sorts of things.

Liking a structured, mind-numbing game, is its own kind of fun, for some people.

There's no need to get frustrated about it.

[starwoof]

Everyone is entitled to play their own way. If you and your group want to play casually, that's fine. My group and I just have this wide disparity in play style.

[Proven_Paradox]

My advice to you is to buy a gaming console and get together over that. Everyone involved will have more fun. These guys don't want to play DnD, they want to joke around and have a light-hearted good time. DnD is NOT a good vehicle for this. [edit]At least, not the way I want to play, and I suspect not the way you want to play either. Your mileage may vary.[/edit] Get something with local split/same screen multiplayer for up to four people. If you need suggestions, I've got plenty. Attempting to continue playing DnD with these guys is going to ruin your friendship I think. There were issues with your DMing (which have already been discussed) but the problem rested primarily with a disconnect between what you wanted and what they wanted. It'd be best for everyone involved to move to a different hobby.

[kemmotar]

I'll agree with everyone else, if they don't want to play a serious game try running a light hearted game where they can mess around and be silly, in game...

If you don't want to run a light hearted game and instead want to play a serious campaign you should explain that to them and instead of forcing each other in this, just hand out. This is in fact one of the reasons why I started playing PbPs...I enjoy both types of games but the rest of my group don't care much for more serious campaigns and RP...in fact, I'm not sure some of them actually understand the concept. But that's ok, we've had plenty of funny moments, goofed around and killed some monsters and there was much rejoicing.

If you feel like running a light hearted game you can make it completely spontaneous or make it seem so. You can either play it by memory and fancy, sift through the MM and say you find this, and show the monster you've selected.

On the other hand, you could prepare a dungeon without a particular theme, some interchangeable monsters, traps, loot and a BBEG. If the party chooses to head to the mountains and find a dragon's lair, the unthemed dungeon becomes a cave with thematically appropriate monsters, loot etc, if they want to kill the lich terrorizing the village it becomes a castle and so on and so forth.

It involves about the same amount of work since you're not actually making a story line...make up NPCs, cities, places whatever strikes your fancy...make them start in an inn with a silly/evocative/whatever name (whatever works for the group). Include some plot twists or things that will attract the PC's attention...a small pixie approaches you, reaches for its bow and ***** an arrow, as soon as the arrow leaves the bow it becomes a large ballista bolt headed right for you...the shiny new armor you just put on without identifying changed your skin color to lavender and made an arcane mark on the back of your shirt reading:kick me.

alternatively you could play the light hearted version of paranoia. If they take too long making characters and want a chance to goof off, all they need to know is: the computer is your friend.
plus it's new and shiny and bound to get their attention...