combining weak feats

[awa]

i was considering combining a couple of the weaker feats such as run and endurance and improved unarmed and improved grapple to make them more appealing to characters.
would this make them to good?

Also i was considering doing something about feats like stealth perhaps increasing the bonus to +3.
what do pepole think?

[Zincorium]

If...

...your players will always take it: too strong, tone down a bit.

...your players will usually take it for a given character: strong feat

...your players might take it after they've taken good options: weak feat

...nobody ever takes it: too weak/circumstancial. Make it stronger or more versatile.


Granted, forums are a good resource for objective comparisons (in which case, I think both of these are good ideas), but running them past your players is the key thing here. Gauge their reactions appropriately, and don't be scared of making strong feats, just ones that are better than any other feat.

[taltamir]

i was considering combining a couple of the weaker feats such as run and endurance and improved unarmed and improved grapple to make them more appealing to characters.
would this make them to good?

Also i was considering doing something about feats like stealth perhaps increasing the bonus to +3.
what do pepole think?

I don't know why run is considered underpowered...
I have had a character be the ONLY survivor of a TPK thanks to run before...

[Glimbur]

I don't know why run is considered underpowered...
I have had a character be the ONLY survivor of a TPK thanks to run before...

Choosing feats so that you can survive when Rocks Fall Everyone Dies is not as helpful as choosing feats so that you can prevent Rocks Falling.

[RandomLunatic]

Choosing feats so that you can survive when Rocks Fall Everyone Dies is not as helpful as choosing feats so that you can prevent Rocks Falling.

Better yet would be picking something that would allow you to prevent those rocks from falling in the first place...

[rayne_dragon]

Unfortunately, even the best plans sometimes go wrong, so sometimes it's actually better to have a way to get out of rocks falling than of preventing it. Especially if other people in your party enjoy doing stupid things (like taking on a whole army at once).

[sofawall]

Better yet would be picking something that would allow you to prevent those rocks from falling in the first place...

I think that is exactly what he said.

[taltamir]

Unfortunately, even the best plans sometimes go wrong, so sometimes it's actually better to have a way to get out of rocks falling than of preventing it. Especially if other people in your party enjoy doing stupid things (like taking on a whole army at once).

aka... sometimes things go south and you just have to leg it :)

also... "I don't have to run faster then the bear, I just have to run faster than you"

[Sstoopidtallkid]

aka... sometimes things go south and you just have to leg it :)

also... "I don't have to run faster then the bear, I just have to run faster than you"

Wizard:DD/Teleport/Invisibility
Rogue:Hide
Cleric:Meld into stone
Fighter:Heavy armor so he can't move anyways, let alone outpace any of his party.

Tell me, who benefits from that feat?

[Radiun]

Wizard:DD/Teleport/Invisibility
Rogue:Hide
Cleric:Meld into stone
Fighter:Heavy armor so he can't move anyways, let alone outpace any of his party.

Tell me, who benefits from that feat?

Druids
Wait, I'm pretty sure there's a rule against running while burrowing... still, for flying and swimming.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Druids
Wait, I'm pretty sure there's a rule against running while burrowing... still, for flying and swimming.

How many enemies can both fly and burrow themselves? Especially since Druids get their own array of Teleportation effects. And summons/ACs willing to go "Thou. Shalt. Not. Pass." for them.

Plus, when was the last time a Druid was overmatched?

[Setra]

Wizard:DD/Teleport/Invisibility
Rogue:Hide
Cleric:Meld into stone
Fighter:Heavy armor so he can't move anyways, let alone outpace any of his party.

Tell me, who benefits from that feat?

Barbarians?

Rangers?
[/grasp at straws]

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Barbarians?

Rangers?
[/grasp at straws]

The Barbarian can outrun anyone anyways.

The Rangers can die in a fire.

[Setra]

The Barbarian can outrun anyone anyways.

The Rangers can die in a fire.

Well I was grasping at straws

And, fair enough =p

[UserClone]

How many enemies can both fly and burrow themselves? Especially since Druids get their own array of Teleportation effects. And summons/ACs willing to go "Thou. Shalt. Not. Pass." for them.

Plus, when was the last time a Druid was overmatched?

I believe the line you were looking for is "YOU SHALL not pass", as opposed to "thou shalt."

[Curmudgeon]

I believe the line you were looking for is "YOU SHALL not pass", as opposed to "thou shalt."

Yeah, since King Arthur & co. had to be speaking really Old (5th Century) English, which is a Germanic language vastly different from the one we're using, it makes no sense to throw in 17th Century English word forms.

Those Monty Python guys were mostly Oxbridge types, and they stayed pretty true to the legends. (Except funnier, of course.)

[Prime32]

Wizard:DD/Teleport/Invisibility
Rogue:Hide
Cleric:Meld into stone
Fighter:Heavy armor so he can't move anyways, let alone outpace any of his party.

Tell me, who benefits from that feat?

Well, monks do, but if you're playing a monk the TPK is your fault in the first place.

I believe the line you were looking for is "YOU SHALL not pass", as opposed to "thou shalt."

Actually, it was "You cannot pass." in the book.

[Kurald Galain]

Unfortunately, even the best plans sometimes go wrong, so sometimes it's actually better to have a way to get out of rocks falling than of preventing it.

Yes, it's called a Potion of Invisibility.

Considering how many gold pieces the average character gets vs. how many feats he gets, I'd consider that a much better deal.

[boomwolf]

Don't underestimate weak feats such as run. the extra they give is sometimes jest what you needed.

For example-if you are a light melee swashbuckler style/twin dual, that x5 speed will help you get closer to that archer/wizard/ranged whatever that keep shooting and moving away faster they normal, and that extra round of arrival might be crucial.
Maybe you need to catch somebody that is running away because he holds the only map of a castle you need to invade and had scry protection all around.

Now, I admit these are specific situations, but they DO come up.
And how many useful feats melee dudes get anyway? not much.

These feats need a boost to make worthwhile, but they have their uses.

[PhoenixRivers]

Now, I admit these are specific situations, but they DO come up.
And how many useful feats melee dudes get anyway? dozens

Fixed that for you.

[taltamir]

Wizard:DD/Teleport/Invisibility
Rogue:Hide
Cleric:Meld into stone
Fighter:Heavy armor so he can't move anyways, let alone outpace any of his party.

Tell me, who benefits from that feat?

DD requires level 7 wizard, teleport level 9, invisibility requires move silently checks (your wizard will fail those).
EDIT: invis also requires a creature based threat (and not, say, a trap), and it requires that it doesn't have blind sense or scent (tracking dog).

In cases where I found it useful, I was playing a wizard that has not YET learned dimension door.

[Project_Mayhem]

invisibility requires move silently checks (your wizard will fail those).

Ooh, Ooh, Ghost Sound!

[taltamir]

Ooh, Ooh, Ghost Sound!

they will hear you casting the ghost sound though.

[Project_Mayhem]

they will hear you casting the ghost sound though.

Ooh, Ooh, Silenced Ghost Hand!

Edit: Also, Ghost sound has round per level duration, so it can come first. Ideally, we go quickened Ghost hand (echoing running noise), Invisibility, and then very carefully and slowly tiptoe out. Even if they disbelieve the sound, its still obscuring your noise.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

DD requires level 7 wizard, teleport level 9, invisibility requires move silently checks (your wizard will fail those).
EDIT: invis also requires a creature based threat (and not, say, a trap), and it requires that it doesn't have blind sense or scent (tracking dog).

In cases where I found it useful, I was playing a wizard that has not YET learned dimension door.

Wizard uses Rope Trick instead. Ist very nice, yes?

Also, why use Run when Travel Devotion does it better and allows for full attacking?

[Mongoose87]

Those Monty Python guys were mostly Oxbridge types, and they stayed pretty true to the legends. (Except funnier, of course.)

Cambridge, actually, IIRC.

[Oslecamo]

Yes, it's called a Potion of Invisibility.

Considering how many gold pieces the average character gets vs. how many feats he gets, I'd consider that a much better deal.

Consdering how much monsters have scent/somethingsight/see invisibility at mid/high levels, potion of invisibility isn't a very reliable escape button when you can afford it.

[Zincorium]

Consdering how much monsters have scent/somethingsight/see invisibility at mid/high levels, potion of invisibility isn't a very reliable escape button when you can afford it.

We're comparing it to the run feat. Which is only reliable against a slim sampling of the monster catalog.

Invisibility is a good way to prevent being targeted. Yeah, if you're running solo and the monster can detect you, it won't allow you to escape- but it'll still give you a miss chance against most of them while you hoof it. If there's someone else around, then they'll probably get the monster's attention more than you do (again, against most of them).

[jiriku]

i was considering combining a couple of the weaker feats such as run and endurance and improved unarmed and improved grapple to make them more appealing to characters.
would this make them to good?

Also i was considering doing something about feats like stealth perhaps increasing the bonus to +3.
what do pepole think?

I generally roll any feat that begins with the words 'Improved' or 'Greater' into the base feat, and add a 'special' line to the base feat stating that you only get the increased benefit when you meet all the prerequisites you would have needed for the improved version of the feat. For example:

PRECISE SHOT [Fighter, General]
You are skilled at timing and aiming ranged attacks.
Prerequisite: Point Blank Shot.
Benefit: You can shoot or throw ranged weapons at an opponent engaged in melee without taking the standard -4 penalty on your attack roll.
Special: If you also have Dex 19 or better and base attack bonus +11 or better, you ignore cover and concealment, and when firing into a grapple you never hit the wrong target. Total cover and total concealment still provide their normal benefits against your ranged attacks.

This begins to correct a balance problem between casters and non-casters (spells scale in power as you level up, but feats don't), and allows melee types to take advantage of good ideas that were poorly executed in the rules (such as improved two-weapon fighting and greater two-weapon fighting, or bounding assault and rapid blitz). Naturally the monsters get the same benefits too if they take these feats. It works nicely.

[Zar Peter]

Yeah, since King Arthur & co. had to be speaking really Old (5th Century) English, which is a Germanic language vastly different from the one we're using, it makes no sense to throw in 17th Century English word forms.

Those Monty Python guys were mostly Oxbridge types, and they stayed pretty true to the legends. (Except funnier, of course.)

Actually Arthur spoke Celtic or Latin (because the Romans just left Britain) and he fought the Anglo-Saxons who brought this German elements you're using into your language.