Help me make a comprehensive list of spells that need banning / modifying

[taltamir]

I am trying to make a comprehensive list of spells (and abilities) that break the game and thus need modifying or banning outright.

For example:
Gate, Planer Binding (and lesser, and greater): simply summons a creature to your plane, you have no power (From the spell) to compel them to do anything. you need another spell (say, dominate) or diplomacy to convince them to do anything.

Polymorph (and other spells like it), only allowed as specific form... that is. you can have a "troll shape" or "polymorph into a troll" spell, but no "polymorph into anything in the MM" spell.

In addition to specific spells, I think there should be one and only one rule nerf:
Simply ban metamagic as a whole (regular, divine, any kind). Metamagic is either not worth it, or abused to ridiculous extend. It is just too unpredictable. It is hard enough to balance spells against each other without giving a set of "modify spells as you wish" tools.
If you need a metamagic like effect you are free to RESEARCH a modified version of the spell..

For example, if you wish to have a stilled teleport, you can attempt to research a "stilled teleport" spell (Which will be a level 6 spell if allowed at all; in this case, it would be allowed).

An alternative not so stringent rule would be "only one metamagic allowed per spell". So no stacking metamagics.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Test of Spite ruleset is a pretty good place to start, they seem to be banning the most obviously broken stuff, leaving the just powerful/awesome behind.

[jmbrown]

Oh boy, is it that time of the week again

You're not the first person to attempt this and I guarantee you can find a topic on this subject at least every other page. Still...

Gate, Planer Binding (and lesser, and greater): simply summons a creature to your plane, you have no power (From the spell) to compel them to do anything. you need another spell (say, dominate) or diplomacy to convince them to do anything.

The problem isn't convincing a creature, the problem is that the spell mixes roleplay with hard mechanics which you should never do. There needs to be a clear list of what you can and cannot demand from a bound creature followed by the DC and modifiers. For example

Creature must perform a dangerous task +5
Creature is expected to use their abilities to benefit you instead of themselves +5
Creature is offered 1,000gp per hit dice -5
Creature is expected to fight against opposing alignment -3
Task is open ended or lasts more than a day +1 per day estimated or each additional assigned service

The problem with high level spells is that they're vague which goes against the point of a Vancian system. Magic is supposed to have specific, irrefutable results. If the results can be questioned or the wording isn't specific, you leave things open for player interpretation.

Polymorph (and other spells like it), only allowed as specific form... that is. you can have a "troll shape" or "polymorph into a troll" spell, but no "polymorph into anything in the MM" spell.

Pathfinder does something like this but even they screwed up. Personally, I'd rule that the target is always You, never someone else, and you don't gain hit points from polymorphing. I'd also require a constitution roll or you take a penalty because the new form is alien to you. Magic shouldn't circumvent the fact that you're suddenly no longer human.

I like using AD&D as examples for "balance" because magic was a lot more dangerous. Polymorph self essentially worked as 3E's polymorph but only on the caster and you retained your original hit points and saving throws so wizards were still weak unlike 3E. Polymorph other let you turn your fighter friend into what you wished (white dragon even) but there was a 100% chance (-1 for every point of intelligence and -1 for every point difference in hit die) that the person polymorphed would assume the mindset of the creature he became.

In other words, a wizard polymorphed into a dragon could breath fire and fly but he was physically no tougher than a wizard. A fighter polymorphed into a dragon could very well become a dragon. Oh, yeah. Polymorph other had a permanent duration. If it was dispelled, the character had to roll a polymorph survival check or die from the shock.

An alternative not so stringent rule would be "only one metamagic allowed per spell". So no stacking metamagics.

I agree with this for divine metamagic at least. That feat is pure cheese especially to people with extra turning.

In addition to specific spells, I think there should be one and only one rule nerf:
Simply ban metamagic as a whole (regular, divine, any kind). Metamagic is either not worth it, or abused to ridiculous extend. It is just too unpredictable. It is hard enough to balance spells against each other without giving a set of "modify spells as you wish" tools.
If you need a metamagic like effect you are free to RESEARCH a modified version of the spell..

The game doesn't have to be balanced, but what it does need are hard rules. Spells should not be open to interpretation. Fabricate only creates a single, complete product requiring a single craft check and should have a line in there specifically stating "Fabricate can not be used to replicate multiple products in tandem."

As for research, it was a staple in AD&D but 3E killed it. You don't gain experience from researching or creating magic items and it's assumed that magic stores exist for you to buy, cheaply, whatever you need. Simply having a scroll of teleport on hand to cast in an instant isn't rare or difficult to do.

[sonofzeal]

Metamagic isn't a problem. Metamagic reducers, are. Ban them, not the metamagic (which is useful and fun and moderately suboptimal).

[Lycanthromancer]

Creature must perform a dangerous task +5
Creature is expected to use their abilities to benefit you instead of themselves +5
Creature is offered 1,000gp per hit dice -5
Creature is expected to fight against opposing alignment -3
Task is open ended or lasts more than a day +1 per day estimated or each additional assigned service

Threaten to torment its essence for the rest of eternity (via trap the soul) if it doesn't do something for you that might inconvenience it for a day - Priceless.

[jmbrown]

Threaten to torment its essence for the rest of eternity (via trap the soul) if it doesn't do something for you that might inconvenience it for a day - Priceless.

There should also be a greater focus on the "creature may seek retribution" part of the spell. Using the "bind a nightmare" example argued into the ground in the "wizards overpowered" topic, the first thing I'd do when set free is find the nearest balor and say "Hey, there's a puny wizard with butt tons of treasure. Touch me and I'll astrally project you and your subjects to him."

[Lycanthromancer]

There should also be a greater focus on the "creature may seek retribution" part of the spell. Using the "bind a nightmare" example argued into the ground in the "wizards overpowered" topic, the first thing I'd do when set free is find the nearest balor and say "Hey, there's a puny wizard with butt tons of treasure. Touch me and I'll astrally project you and your subjects to him."

"Sorry, but you can't do that. For one, astral projection doesn't work that way. Two, the dimension lock prevents you from teleporting. Three, you can't cross the magic circle against evil (but I can throw this here soul gem at you over and over and over, using my handy-dandy mage hand to bring it back to me. And if you try to snatch it up to prevent me throwing it at you...? Well, let's just say I get what I want either way."

Seriously, it's that bad.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

There should also be a greater focus on the "creature may seek retribution" part of the spell. Using the "bind a nightmare" example argued into the ground in the "wizards overpowered" topic, the first thing I'd do when set free is find the nearest balor and say "Hey, there's a puny wizard with butt tons of treasure. Touch me and I'll astrally project you and your subjects to him."

Who says you let him go? Once whatever you summoned him for is done, Dominate/Trap the Soul/Metamagic'd orb of death.

[Sendal]

If its so obvious that thats what a wizard would do, then what incentive does your bound creature have to do anything for you? After the 500th time this happens to some demon or other, word will get around.

If it was the threat of death before, thats just lost all meaning. I'm sure that given the choice, it would rather die laughing at you than being stabbed in the back.

I would fix it by making the spell summon the creature to you for a short time (say a day) and then you can negotiate with it to perform a service for you. The fact that the diplomacy rules are broken is a seperate issue.

I would make the creature safe from you, and you safe from it during the negotiation period, so you have to offer something to it other than threats. At the end of the duration you decide whether to send it home or release it from the circle.

[jmbrown]

"Sorry, but you can't do that. For one, astral projection doesn't work that way. Two, the dimension lock prevents you from teleporting. Three, you can't cross the magic circle against evil (but I can throw this here soul gem at you over and over and over, using my handy-dandy mage hand to bring it back to me. And if you try to snatch it up to prevent me throwing it at you...? Well, let's just say I get what I want either way."

Seriously, it's that bad.

No, what I'm saying is that after the spell is over the creature is instantly released from service and can seek retribution on you. I'd agree to your terms... but you better watch your back because I know where you live and as an outsider I don't need to sleep or eat. Binding outsiders isn't the safest thing in the world and in Conan or most classic pulp fantasy the evil sorcerer usually dies because his bound demon finds a loophole and kills him.

That's the kind of unpredictability higher level spells should have in 3E. You shouldn't know whether or not your spell is successful. You shouldn't be given days to constantly retry a charisma check. I'd also rule that the penalty to have the spell instantly broken is increased by 1 per day. On the 2nd day the creature attacks you on a 1-2. On the third day he attacks on a 1-3 and so on.

Who says you let him go? Once whatever you summoned him for is done, Dominate/Trap the Soul/Metamagic'd orb of death.

You'd have to kill him instantly and before he spoke to you because by RAW, the moment he tells you the service is done he's immediately sent back to his own plane.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

You'd have to kill him instantly and before he spoke to you because by RAW, the moment he tells you the service is done he's immediately sent back to his own plane.

"Return to me only when the service is done or if a king born on the second day of February gives you his first daughter's hand in marriage."

Then blow him up before he says anything.

[Draz74]

From Core:

Acid Fog
Alter Self
Antimagic Field
Astral Projection
Blasphemy
Clone
Deathwatch
Dictum
Divine Power
Explosive Runes
Gate
Glitterdust
Holy Word
Knock
Mage's Disjunction
Magic Circle vs. Chaos
Magic Circle vs. Evil
Magic Circle vs. Good
Magic Circle vs. Law
Mind Blank
Planar Ally
Greater Planar Ally
Lesser Planar Ally
Planar Binding
Greater Planar Binding
Lesser Planar Binding
Polymorph
Polymorph Any Object
Protection from Chaos
Protection from Evil
Protection from Good
Protection from Law
Reverse Gravity
Righteous Might
Greater Shadow Evocation
Shapechange
Shrink Item
Solid Fog
Teleport
Greater Teleport
Time Stop
True Seeing
Wall of Iron
Wish
Word of Chaos

... and that's a conservative list, really. That still leaves spellcasters with a number of options that are powerful enough to scare me.

Really, the shorter list would be the Core spells that I don't have some kind of gripe with, even a minor one. (Many are too weak.)

And that's only Core.

[Lycanthromancer]

Remember, even if you change planar binding so that you have to bargain with the creature, and you cannot harm the creature in any way, you can still get at least two wishes out of an efreeti by offering to make your last wish on its behalf.

You can then get a simulacrum of the efreeti, and one of a nightmare, then use the wishes granted by the efreeti simulacrum to get more simulacra.

[Sendal]

thats a weakness in the design of the Efreeti rather than the binding spell.

And I'm pretty sure simulacrum is a spell that could do with a look at as well. I'm not sure how to make it do what it was supposed to reliably though.

Clearly the idea is to be able to make a copy aproximatly 50% as powerful as a creature that you have been able to obtain a part of. Firstly, it must be made clear that you don't have a small part of every creature in existance in your component pouch. Thats just silly for starters. The hard part is how to nerf your copy in a consistant way that works for all creatures. Halfing the HD just doesn't cut it.

[PinkysBrain]

From Core:

Acid Fog

Meh, this and solid fog can contextually be encounter winning ... I don't think it's a huge problem, Evard's Black Tentacles is far worse.

Divine Power/Righteous Might

No one ever wants to play clerics ... without metamagic reducers I don't think making a big deal about buffed clerics is good for the game. Uber buffing in general is a problem, but that's not so much a problem with these spells and should be solved differently.

Protection from X

You can meet stuff like vampires at pretty low level ... these are powerful defenses, but I don't have a huge problem with powerful defenses against SoDs.

and that's a conservative list, really.

Don't even see telekinesis, so easy to break the damage cap on spells with this.

[Draz74]

Meh, this and solid fog can contextually be encounter winning ... I don't think it's a huge problem, Evard's Black Tentacles is far worse.

Black Tentacles starts off more powerful but doesn't scale as well to high levels. I still considered putting it on the list, though.

No one ever wants to play clerics ... without metamagic reducers I don't think making a big deal about buffed clerics is good for the game. Uber buffing in general is a problem, but that's not so much a problem with these spells and should be solved differently.

Righteous Might, you may be correct. Divine Power, though, is definitely a mechanic (changing your actual BAB) that the game does not need.

And while there's a lot of things I don't like about the 4e Cleric, they got one thing right: the way to make the Cleric more appealing to play isn't to make it super-good in melee, it's to make him able to do his mediocre melee fighting and his healing/buffing stuff at the same time.

You can meet stuff like vampires at pretty low level ... these are powerful defenses, but I don't have a huge problem with powerful defenses against SoDs.

Powerful defenses and absolute defenses aren't the same thing. Shutting off half of the school of Enchantment with one spell, Protection from X (or shutting all of Enchantment off with Mind Blank), means things need some kind of re-design. I won't deny that Vampiric abilities and the like either need very powerful counters, or just need to be nerfed themselves; but Protection from X isn't the ideal way to design the counters to them. (For one thing, it makes parties who don't have access to these specific spells too un-viable.)

Don't even see telekinesis, so easy to break the damage cap on spells with this.

Yeah, there's lots of spells that aren't broken if used as intended, but can be broken with enough rules-lawyering. I put some on the list (e.g. Shrink Item), but you're right, Telekinesis proves I wasn't very thorough.

[Tiktakkat]

Metamagic isn't a problem. Metamagic reducers, are. Ban them, not the metamagic (which is useful and fun and moderately suboptimal).

I think all reducers just need the same text as Metamagic Song in Races of Stone. That being, the feat cannot be used to add metamagic that would make the spell of a higher level than you could normally cast. No quickened DMM at 1st level, and no 25th level spells reduced to 9th level without burning way too many epic feats.

[PinkysBrain]

And while there's a lot of things I don't like about the 4e Cleric, they got one thing right: the way to make the Cleric more appealing to play isn't to make it super-good in melee, it's to make him able to do his mediocre melee fighting and his healing/buffing stuff at the same time.

I don't think being able to effectively healbot will endear the class to 3e players ... quite the opposite actually.

[lesser_minion]

Protection from Evil doesn't shut off half of the enchantment school at all - it doesn't stop you being dominated, it lets you follow your own orders for a short time.

Dominate effects need work anyway - Being able to guarantee the effect for all eternity feels like a loophole (in fact, it should be as hard to compel a creature magically to relent on a save as it is to compel it to suicide. You're actually trying to suppress the same thing in both cases).

Suggestion also needs work. V's little trick on the dragon shouldn't have been legal at all.

[Reinboom]

My old banned/modified list for 3.5:

Spoiler

Show

If a spell is banned that is in your domain, an alternative option is acceptable to be worked out with the GM.

Banned Spells/Powers/Maneuvers:
1
Ray of Enfeeblement
Protection from [Alignment]
Locate City**
Detect Secret Doors**
Synchronicity (p)

2
Alterself
Glibness
Glitterdust*
Knock**
Rope Trick
Ray of Stupidity
Bestow Power (p)
Knock, Psionic (p)**
Share Pain (p)

3
Bands of Steel
Shivering Touch
Stinking Cloud
Wind Wall
Ray of Exhaustion
Fly*
Unluck
Wraithstrike
Phantom Steed
Share Pain, Forced (p)
White Raven Tactics (m)

4
Black Tentacles
Polymorph
Celerity
Confusion
Dimension Door*
Fear
Solid Fog
Shadow Conjuration**
Charm Monster
Geas, Lesser
Enervation (for its metamagic potential, not for the spell itself).
Consumptive Field (d)
Divine Power (d)
Glory of the Martyr (d)
Psychic Reformation (p)
Fabricate, Psionic (p)

5
Baleful Polymorph
Cloudkill
Teleport*
Dominate Person
Feeblemind
Hold Monster
Flesh to Stone
Private Sanctum
Overland Flight
Shadow Evocation
Fly, Mass
Fabricate
Righteous Might (d)
Owl's Insight (d)

6
Acid Fog
Contingency
Overland Flight, Psionic (p)
Mind Switch (p)
Fabricate, Psionic Greater (p)

7
Transfix
Stun Ray
Avasculate
Bite of the Werebear
Brilliant Aura
Forcecage
Teleport, Greater
Magnificent Mansion
Shadow Conjuration, Greater
Banishment
Finger of Death
Planar Bubble
Reverse Gravity
Arcane Spellsurge
Energy Transformation Field
Hiss of Sleep
Simulacrum
Geas/Quest
Consumptive Field, Greater (d)
Holy Word (d)
Blasphemy (d)
Dictum (d)
Word of Chaos (d)

8
Polymorph Any Object
Avascular, Mass
Embrace the Dark Chaos
Wrathful Castigation
Celerity, Greater
Maddening Whispers
Bestow Curse, Greater
Irresistible Dance
Shadow Evocation, Greater
Power Word: Stun
Shun the Dark Chaos
Superior Invisibility

9
Maw of Chaos
Shapechange
Gate
Time Stop*
Mage's Disjunction
Programmed Amnesia
Weird
Dominate Monster
Teleportation Circle
Power Word: Kill
Ice Assassin
Astral Projection
Shades
Affinity Field (p)
Mind Switch, True (p)

Notes:
(d) = Only Found on Divine List
(p) = Psionic
(m) = Martial Maneuver
* = Modified version instead, on/based on: http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Core_Tweaks
** = My fiat specific. I just don't like the spell.

Banned Feats:
Divine Metamagic
Natural Spell
Fell Drain
Fell Weaken
Metamagic School Focus
Easy Metamagic
Leadership
Leap Attack
Persistent Spell
Explosive Spell
Sculpt Spell
Sanctum Spell
Dragonwrought
Assume Supernatural Ability
Dark Speech
Mercantile Background
Epic Spellcasting
Epic Manifesting

Banned Items:
Admirals Bicorne
Belt of Battle
Blindfold of True Darkness
Boots of Temporal Acceleration
Candle of Invocation
Dust of Sneezing and Choking
Flesh Ring of Scorn
Headband of Conscious Effort (Concentration for a Fort Save)
Heward's Fortifying Bedroll (Sleep)
Ioun Stone, Orange
Nightsticks
Rod of Metamagic
Rod of Metamagic, Greater
Thought Bottle

Banned Item Enhancements:
Splitting
Soulfire

Banned Prestige Classes:
Hulking Hurler
Frenzied Berserker
Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil
Ur-Priest
Dweomerkeeper
Illithid Slayer
Shadowcraft Mage
Thrallherd
Telflammar Shadowlord

Banned Classes:
Wizard
Cleric
Druid
Archivist

Banned Races and Templates:
Mineral Warrior
Lolth Touched
Feral
Dark
Half-Ogre
Jermlaine
Neraphim
Anthropomorphic
Whisper Gnome
Evolved Undead
Illumian

Banned/Changed Other:
Mastery of Shaping (Archmage High Arcana)
Hivemind (Anything that can produce a hivemind, as by Book of Vile Darkness)
Effigies (The strange construct template that can be produced)
Symbiots (Tentacled strangeness from the Fiend Folio)
Lion Totem Barbarian (Alternative class feature in complete champion)
Prestige Class spell lists for anything other than that PrC (including items) (So, if an artificer was allowed, it could not use Arcane Eye right off due to Trapsmith having it at level 1)
Dinosaurs, and anything to become one or get one.



9th Level Spells Added to the Poor Poor Beguiler:
Reaving Dispel (Spell Compendium, 169)
Replicate Casting (Spell Compendium, 173)

:edit: Note: This is an older list, and my opinions and ideas are not necessarily the same. However, this was the product of quite a bit of research. There are also clearly things missing, like Mind Rape.

Some of the things on this list are also a product of other rules, such as the fact that I don't play with alignments having a significant mechanical effect. Detect/Smite/etc. only works against things with the [Alignment] tag.
And as I recall, ** is a changed spell I have somewhere.

[lesser_minion]

There are quite a few spells which can be fixed by using the old version - even Polymorph (3.0 Polymorph Other had exactly one problem, which can be fixed pretty easily. I'd suggest making disorientation actually relevant as well).

Alter Self is possibly the single biggest example. The designers took something that worked fine and made it into something ridiculously, absurdly unbalanced by comparison.

Monster XP is a really large issue, and one which would be much better resolved by a rules patch than by changes to a whole pile of spells - Sp and Ps abilities should have all the same XP, focus and material components as everything else (Sp abilities should actually be treated exactly like spells, and be vulnerable to counterspelling. They don't make sense as anything other than "this creature has the ability to cast these spells as a consequence of what it is")

Called monsters should lose any calling or summoning abilities they have for the duration of the effect, in the same way that summoned monsters do. That stops any Chain-Gating idiocy.

[Starsinger]

I don't think being able to effectively healbot will endear the class to 3e players ... quite the opposite actually.

And here we have the reason why nobody ever actually gets around to "fixing" the spells on lists like these. For every person who is disgusted with an aspect of 3.5, there is another person who thinks that this is the way the game should be.

[erikun]

What is the point of the bannings?

If it is to prevent the spellcaster from breaking the world in unreasonable ways, then perhaps it is best to simply make a list of what is broken and fix that. Gate isn't broken by itself - it's basically a summon or a mode of transportation - it's broken when you Gate in something and have it cast Wish. And Gate isn't the only think which can do so. A better fix would be to prevent summoned creatures from using abilities which would have a gold/XP cost, or remove the summoning part of Gate, or even make the character enter a "summoning contract" before they can summon anything. It solves the same problems with other spells (Planar Binding) without needing to ban the whole group.

If the bannings are to get wizards in line with fighters... well, that's not happening. Look over the Tier system and ban Tier 1, Tier 5, and Tier 6. That should put everyone in roughly the same ballpark.

[Optimystik]

Test of Spite ruleset is a pretty good place to start, they seem to be banning the most obviously broken stuff, leaving the just powerful/awesome behind.

This. Why reinvent the wheel?

[Pigkappa]

then perhaps it is best to simply make a list of what is broken and fix that

IMO, the simpliest and most effective way of balancing the game is speaking with players. There are an incredible amount of ways a wizard (or a cleric) can be overpowered. I think the DM should ask in advance to the members of his party if they plan to use some combo in the future, and speak about it with them.

If a player spends a lot of money to convince a wizard to let him copy the Gate spell, and then the DM nerfs Gate, he will most likely be disappointed. If he knows in advance what he can do and what he can't do, he won't be too angry.

[Doomboy911]

Shouldn't the DM be able to come up with better challenges mindflayers are murder on a party.

[PinkysBrain]

And here we have the reason why nobody ever actually gets around to "fixing" the spells on lists like these. For every person who is disgusted with an aspect of 3.5, there is another person who thinks that this is the way the game should be.

This is only true up to a point, the 4e exodus has homogenized the player base a bit.

[PinkysBrain]

This. Why reinvent the wheel?

The high tier matches in ToS are still insane ...

[lesser_minion]

One question - how do you call a nightmare? Do you happen to know its truename?

If you want to call a specific creature, you have to name it. Your ability to name something is complete DM fiat. IIRC, there are no rules listed anywhere outside of the BoED, BoVD, and Tome of Magic for finding the name of something, and none of the relevant material from any of those books is likely to be in play.

So how do you call a nightmare with anything less than Gate?

Being able to trade astrally-projected copies of things is also up to DM fiat, IMO - there is nothing in the rules to suggest that an AP'd copy of something is worth anything at all. It disappears irrevocably once the spell ends, and if the high level merchant doesn't have true seeing up (meaning that he knows that you are astrally projecting) then he deserves whatever he gets. But your DM is under no obligation to allow you to actually find such a person.

Astral Projection should probably be nerfed or banned anyway, and Genesis apparently needs it spelled out that Munchkin logic does not apply as well.

Gate probably needs some limitations - being able to get one of the most powerful creatures in the multiverse to help you out for a short time is very powerful, and I don't particularly mind it, as long as you can convince the creature.

The wording of the Candle of Invocation is that a creature with the same alignment as the candle 'responds' to the spell. That implies to me that the creature that appears, by RAW, is not determined using the normal rules for Gate. Instead, the DM picks an appropriate creature.

Major and Minor creation need a footnote that there is no way to cast the spell without the material component, no matter what feats, spells, or other abilities you have (this stops anti-iridium cheese).

[deuxhero]

My old banned/modified list for 3.5:

Wait wait wait. What is wrong with Illithid Slayer/Slayer?