4e: For DMs, a list of particularly brutal monsters.

[Asbestos]

Starting this as a way to compile a list of nasty monsters (either because of their stats or because of the tactics they lend themselves too, feel free to add as I'm starting out with only a few)

Fire Beetle: A bit too strong for it's level. Use sparingly against beginners.

Needledrake Swarms: Pull the PCs down... And then keep doing it. These guys can really lock down the PCs. More than one is just evil. Finding a way to pair them with wolves or enemies that deal extra damage with CA and your players will hate you.

Swarms in general: These can be very hard without a controller in the party to lay down some bursts or blasts.

Wolves and Dire Wolves: Get CA easy and trip up the PCs easy... Then they murder them.

Werecreatures for PCs without silver weapons: Most groups don't seem to be grabbing silvered weapons anymore, teach them why they should early on. I nearly TPKed a group with Rat Swarms and a Wererat, it was well within their expected encounter range too.

Kruthiks: Can use burrow to surround characters and autodamage them to death, these are the bane of the backrow squishies.

Bugbears: Pair these with critters that grant easy CA and watch the PCs drop.

There's something really evil in Open Grave... I'll post it when I get back to my book.

Dragons: Most of these will make a tough fight when used effectively, beware lockdown build PCs.

Night Hag: She can lock down better than that Wizard in the party, make him feel envy for the moment he is alive (and concious).

Forsaken Shell from Open Grave: Read that stat block. They're fast, resistant to forced movement/immobility, their basic attack grabs, they can pull/autodamage grabbed PCs, or and that basic attack while it only does 1d6+5 necrotic (a pitance for a level 6 monster) it takes away a healing surge from the target and heals the Forsaken Shell 5hp! That's right, standard heroic tier monster that takes away healing surges on a basic attack and is incredibly hard to get out of your face thanks to Speed 8 and the ability to make a saving throw against forced movement. Oh, and when they inevitably kill a PC... they rise as a Forsaken Shell on the next turn. Played with a DM that threw 5 of these against a Level 6 party (same level as the monster, should be easy right?) if he hadn't been 'nice' and purposefully neglected to set up CA with these things... easy TPK. The basic Forsaken Shell has two higher level cousins that also drain Surges on hits but they don't spawn as easily as the basic version.

Dark Stalker: A level 10 lurker from the MM1, this monster can be brutal for a party that doesn't have anyone with Dark Vision. A group of these could potentially keep a party blind for an entire encounter and just use CA to slice and dice.

Deathjump Spider: Level 4 Skirmisher that can, at will, Shift 6 squares make make a +6 vs AC (easy to get CA with more than one of these what with all the shifting), for 3d6+3 damage with ongoing 5 poison damage + slow (save ends both) and it knocks the target prone. Oh, and with Climb 6 and the ability to ignore the first 30 points of falling damage these things are practically begging for you to let them drop onto the unsuspecting PCs from the ceiling.

Chillborn Zombies: Level 6 soldiers with stacking auto-damaging Aura 2. Downside is that they're pretty slow (speed 4) so a party with enough room could probably end up kiting them.



Looks like Formorians might be pretty rough Elites, same goes with Black Puddings (Though the pudding is only powerful if you use it against a melee heavy party)

[NeoVid]

Does this still apply after the Needlefang Swarm errata?

I can imagine them still being really nasty with the changes, but not that horrifying.

[The J Pizzel]

Interesting thread. Considering I'm planning on my players fighting some fire beetles next session. After that they're fighting wolves, then some bugbears and goblins.....with more wolves.

I will kill them all.

[Kurald Galain]

Are there any particulary threatening Elites or Solos for an appropriate level party?

Dragons, I think. Most other solos get massacred by an appropriate level party, in my experience.

[Mando Knight]

Does this still apply after the Needlefang Swarm errata?

I can imagine them still being really nasty with the changes, but not that horrifying.

They've got the same tactics, just lower damage dice. Stacking them is still plain evil.

In the evil monsters list: dragons are generally tough for level-appropriate encounters compared to other solos. Tiamat is never a level-appropriate encounter.

[FoE]

Tiamat is never a level-appropriate encounter.

Is she quite tough?

[jmbrown]

Is she quite tough?

The problem with most solos is their lack of attacks in a single round. Tiamat acts five times on five different initiative counts, has 5 action points, and basically goes first unless you roll a 20 on initiative and have tons of modifiers.

[Mando Knight]

There's tough, then there's "I can take a nuke point-blank," and then there's Tiamat. Only guys about as tough to take down are Vecna and Bahamut. Ti-chan snacks on one party member each round. Vecna turns everyone but Revenants into dead things really quickly. Bahamut doesn't stay dead.

[Decoy Lockbox]

The Night Hag in MM1 is really nasty -- it has a close blast 5 super-sleep spell that dazes instead of slows as the primary effect, and the unconsciousness effect has no save. Also, her basic melee inflicts stun (sv ends) if she has CA against the target.

In my first 4e campaign, our DM TPK'ed us by throwing a night hag and 3 gibbering mouthers against us. The mouthers used their free action AOE daze to grant the hag CA against everyone in the party, and it then went around stunning and sleeping everyone. I remember my fighter/warlord was unconcious, stunned, dazed, and taking 5 ongoing acid when he was eaten end-to-end, "lady and the tramp" style by two gibbering mouthers. This was a GM who is notorious for not pulling punches or fudging dice, but he made an exception in this case, and decided to pull out that old chestnut, "it was all a dream".

[Asbestos]

Dragons, I think. Most other solos get massacred by an appropriate level party, in my experience.

Added Dragons. Anyone have experience running Ettins or Hydras? The multiactivation seems like it'd make them meaner than other monsters of their type.

[Asbestos]

Interesting thread. Considering I'm planning on my players fighting some fire beetles next session. After that they're fighting wolves, then some bugbears and goblins.....with more wolves.

I will kill them all.

The PCs, they are the enemy.


Edit: Good catch with the hag, she is one of the nastier controllers. I think I'll arrange these by level at some point.

[tbarrie]

The Night Hag in MM1 is really nasty -- it has a close blast 5 super-sleep spell that dazes instead of slows as the primary effect, and the unconsciousness effect has no save.

Also errataed. It's now save ends.

[Jack_Banzai]

There's tough, then there's "I can take a nuke point-blank," and then there's Tiamat. Only guys about as tough to take down are Vecna and Bahamut. Ti-chan snacks on one party member each round. Vecna turns everyone but Revenants into dead things really quickly. Bahamut doesn't stay dead.

Not to mention Bahamut's nasty tendency to steal 2 healing surges on every hit. And man, can he hit.

[nightwyrm]

There's tough, then there's "I can take a nuke point-blank," and then there's Tiamat. Only guys about as tough to take down are Vecna and Bahamut. Ti-chan snacks on one party member each round. Vecna turns everyone but Revenants into dead things really quickly. Bahamut doesn't stay dead.

What do you mean by that?

[Colmarr]

While there are certainly some nasty monsters out there, I think the true joy of 4e comes from finding the synergy between different monsters.

I'm reviewing Scales of War on my blog at the moment and its amazing how often synergy comes up. Off the top of my head I can think of (not all from Scales of War):

1. Ghouls and zombies - Zombies grab then Ghouls stun.
2. Phalagar and Ghouls (from Thunderspire Labyrinth) - Phalagar AoE grabs and ghouls stun.
3. Ettercap webspinners and Ettercap Fang Guards. - fun with immobilise and restrained

To put it simply, any creature with trait A that triggers from condition B is ripe for synergy with another creature that can reliably impose condition B.

[HMS Invincible]

{Scrubbed}

[Asbestos]

To put it simply, any creature with trait A that triggers from condition B is ripe for synergy with another creature that can reliably impose condition B.

Yeah, this is pretty much why Dire Wolves + Bugbears = Death. The key is finding these little combos (and them being level appropriate for each other)

[Mercenary Pen]

Chillborn Zombie spam anyone? The same goes for other creatures that permit stacking aura damage.

Judging from some of the creatures on this list, I've thrown my party up against some of the tougher low level monsters in 4e, and they're all new to the game.

I mean, I've done wolves, I've done a fire beetle (with a tangler beetle in the same encounter) both with my players only at level 1...

[Guinea Anubis]

Kobolds, when used right I have seen them rip a part PCs.

Edit: I guess I should say why I think they are nasty. The ones that shift away when someone gets next to them makes melees life hell, there leader gives them temp hit points and if you use the ones from Dragon magazine they get even more nasty tricks.

[Shardan]

Beholders are pretty butch for solo mobs. Probably not dragon level, but the 5 square aura can be brutal

[Mando Knight]

What do you mean by that?

Newest Scales of War adventure.

Spoiler

Show

WotC killed him off an adventure or two ago, but the conclusion of this adventure implies that there's no way to keep him dead.

[nightwyrm]

Newest Scales of War adventure. WotC killed him off an adventure or two ago, but the conclusion of this adventure implies that there's no way to keep him dead.

Oh...I just have his statblock from Draconomicon 2.

[Kaiser Omnik]

Spoiler

Show

Newest Scales of War adventure. WotC killed him off an adventure or two ago, but the conclusion of this adventure implies that there's no way to keep him dead.

To be fair, other gods may be using the same trick.

[Boci]

Whats that elite on MM2 that auto dazes as a move actions, turns invisible as a minor action and deals extra damage when it has CA? Two of those and a hooked horror should be a TPK.

[HMS Invincible]

Clerics and warlords when you combine with solo status. 5 healing surges in a row means combat lasts forever, and you have to grind away at him with at-wills.

[Boci]

Clerics and warlords when you combine with solo status. 5 healing surges in a row means combat lasts forever, and you have to grind away at him with at-wills.

So take an elite and add the cleric/warlord template?

[Mando Knight]

To be fair, other gods may be using the same trick.

They probably are, it's just that Crystal Dragon Jesus is the only one shown in a WotC source to actually use the trick in 4e. He's also got an Epic Destiny to grant to players so that they're part of his plan: Vessel of Bahamut, which is actually one of the few EDs I'd look into for a Divine character beyond Chosen or Demigod.

[AllisterH]

To put it simply, any creature with trait A that triggers from condition B is ripe for synergy with another creature that can reliably impose condition B.

The easiest one is combat advantage.

There are lots of creatures that inflict combat advantage as a result of their attacks.

There are lots of creatures that do MORE damage/effects when they have combat advantage.

[Dizlag]

From the Scepter Tower of Spellguard adventure module, the Dark One baddie in MMI that tosses down a 9x9 darkness which blocks line of sight except for him and his buddies that have darkvision. He gets +2d6 damage if he's got CA ... all encounter long if he's in the darkness and he can sustain it as a minor action. Toss a few of the other Dark Ones in the encounter and it was a nasty fight.

From the Beyond the Trollhaunt Warrens article in Dragon (can't remember which one), the fully-armored trolls that explode when they hit 0 hit points and do 2d6+10 damage in a burst 2 or 1, can't remember. They send shrapnel into your PCs ... very nice. My group loved it! And one guy suggested it would be a nasty ability on minions. Oh how I enjoy when players give you ideas to hurt them with. LOL

Dizlag

[BobTheDog]

Deathjump Spiders.

At level 4:

2d6+3 plus 5 ongoing poison and slowed (save ends both) basic attack. Also, it's not a brute, so its defenses do not suck to "counterweight" the hefty damage.

Not only that, it has an at-will attack where it shifts 6 squares and bites (as above) with +1d6 damage and prone on a hit.

I used two of those plus a trap against a decent level 3 party. They ran away leaving the dead rogue behind as spider food.

Edit: oh yeah... Standard monster, not elite or anything. Best 175 xp budget you ever spend.