Turnips, Gold and Wishes as applied to post-apocalyptic USA

[cheezewizz2000]

Before anyone comes into this thread hoping for an insightful monologue regarding the economy of a post-apocalyptic world, I want to get right off the bat that this is not what I am providing. This is more inspired by the thread army logistics revisted, which is booping awesome and required reading, and centred around asking how that economy could be applied to a post-apocalyptic scenario. There is also a significant amount of PEACH requested here as well, as this applies to my (3.5) campaign setting.

The Background:
I will be running a game with a group of friends in the not-too-distant future set after a cataclysmic event, the result of which is the resurgance of magic into the "real world" and the sudden frying of all electrical equipment. Each region will have its own issues, such as China's terracotta army turning out to be a load of dormant clay golems under the command of the chinese emperor (and all the fun that brings for those currently in the british museum), and the re-appearance of fey and King Arthur in the UK, but I want to focus on the issues that the US will face as that is where the first campaign will be set.

A red dragon necromancer has been trapped beneath yellowstone for quite a while now and has resurfaced thanks to it erupting. Through some dark ritual, the specifics of which I haven't yet figured out, it is causing the dead to rise as zombies, which are homebrewed to be contageous, but also vulnerable to called shots to the head (effective and optional +4 size bonus to AC, but no DR and not immune to criticals). The sun has been blotted out by ash, at least over the US (Queztacoatl, Canadian-Indian spirits, Japanese Oni and European Fey won't let the ash cloud spread any further, and are commiting significant resources to keeping it out of their respective lands) and most of the continental US is plagued by zombies. The players will be a group of people from Wales, Wisconsin who's job it is to survive/escape/determine the future of the US in future campaigns.

Here's where the economics come in:
Obviously, the dollar is suddenly worthless, cutting out the gold economy. Food is now the currency of choice and as time wares on, it gets pretty rare. The only good stuff is tinned and producing your own food in a volcanic winter is pretty hard to do. Ammo would be the next major currency as, again, no-one is producing it, and it's necessary for survival. The wish economy is not considered as there are no (human) casters of high enough level yet.

And here's my question: How would the sudden re-valuing of the turnip and gold affect the economy? What do forum-goers expect would be the result of this? I'm thinking that banditry would be rife and that gun-stores and supermarkets would be turned into fortresses that get laid seige to constantly by desperate, hungry surviors, but how does this apply to players beyond providing the odd adventure seed? (IE: people have a supermarket and aren't letting people in/you have a supermarket and there's not enough food to go around. People want in.)

[jseah]

Firstly, you need to make sure to wipe all 1st world civilizations.

ALL.

Leaving one country still going strong (relatively, since trade is impossible now) means that any surviving universities immediately apply scientific methods to magic.

You don't want to go there.

[cheezewizz2000]

Firstly, you need to make sure to wipe all 1st world civilizations.

ALL.

Leaving one country still going strong (relatively, since trade is impossible now) means that any surviving universities immediately apply scientific methods to magic.

You don't want to go there.

Actually, that's pretty much exactly where I was going to go. The only magic they will have access to though is the sorcerous kind and ancient books that talk about knowledge of the Arcane Arts and how to produce Wizards. Rome and London would produce the "first" wizards, based on re-interpretations of books in the archives of the Vatican and the University of London. The first Wizards would be multiclassed sorcerers as they have a natural talent for magic and so would "obviously" be the best students to start with.

But I want to know how the "turnips, gold and wishes" economies can be applied to a post-appocalyptic setting.

[Lysander]

Supermarkets aren't defensible. They might be targets initially but soon they'll be looted and their supplies taken to more secure locations.

Currency would depend on how post-apocalyptic things are. If there is still an economy, even a primitive one, gold and silver would retain some value. We don't have a gold economy now so the dollar becoming worthless would not by itself affect gold. If things are really bad only food and supplies would be worth anything. Perhaps it could vary by region - more intact areas accept silver nickles and mercury dimes, more devastated regions don't. I could see canned food being a currency, as well as medicine/first-aid supplies, tools, and other irreplaceable objects.

[BooNL]

I would also depend whether electricity is still running or if communities have a steady way to create it (gas fueled back-up generators won't last long).

Commercial coolers used by restaurants and hotels (especially hotels, they usually have big coolers) could work as central storerooms and are quite defensible.
Most of the hotels I've seen the backstage area of usually have their coolers in the cellar.

[Brendan]

well, for encounters, perhaps some more mystical of the monsters, like the nagas, as they seem to me to be the closest thing to a lot of ancient native american mythos.
oh, and our words. Tarrasque in south america.

[cheezewizz2000]

I would also depend whether electricity is still running or if communities have a steady way to create it (gas fueled back-up generators won't last long).

Commercial coolers used by restaurants and hotels (especially hotels, they usually have big coolers) could work as central storerooms and are quite defensible.
Most of the hotels I've seen the backstage area of usually have their coolers in the cellar.

Electricity isn't working. Mechanics wise, it's because I don't want them having access to the internet or the ability to use cars. Fluff-wise, it's because the Earth's magnetic field is fluctuating enough to amplify electric currents in circuits enough to blow out normal wires. Fridges are right out.

Currency would depend on how post-apocalyptic things are.

In terms of "how post apocalyptic", I was going to go with as much as could be believeable.

We don't have a gold economy now so the dollar becoming worthless would not by itself affect gold.

By gold economy, I don't really mean currencies tied to the price of gold or the gold standard. I mean the use of coins in trade, as distinct from the "turnip economy" (commoners bartering with the food they have produced) and "wish economy" (based on the fact that a high level Wizard can produce a 15,000gp magic item at the drop of a hat, but never anything more).

I sort of wonder how much people would still value money even after the collapse of the banks. Would they retain some "value" so long as people still think they do? How long before the need for food outweighs any value the money still retains? Would ammo start to be tradeable in place of coins as it is inherently useful, in a world overrun by zombies and more easily transported than food, or would a might-makes-right attitude take over, and those people with the most ammo and weapons (I.E. those than horde it rather than trade it) be the most successful in surviving?

[Johel]

I'm going to stop you at that point :
The problem isn't to survive the apocalypse.
It's to survive a several thousands years old hungry red dragon with epic magic.

Whatever make-shift stronghold you can build, it will be snack for the dragon once it will reach a certain demography. No amount of armor is going to endure the furnace of 24d10 fire damage. Not when 15 fire damage is enough to kill anybody (except John McClane and Chuck Norris). Not when the monster is going to breath every 24 seconds. And can cast a spell if you resist nevertheless...

[cheezewizz2000]

The problem isn't to survive the apocalypse.
It's to survive a several thousands years old hungry red dragon with epic magic.

While a highly valid point, the dragon is not necessarily epic, just has access to some sort of epic ritual. I figured it would be a once only thing, requiring a lot of sacrifices of her brood. The Dragon need not be much higher than CR20, or even CR(plot) if the players find out about it early enough. Though that's not to say that if by some miricle of terrible DMing that I let it slip that a Dragon is behind the whole thing at level 4 that the party would travel to Yellowstone to find a wyrmling in black robes with a skull-staff.

The main reasons that the dragon isn't going to be killing them off early are many-fold:

Unawareness of their existance (at least at first)
Villainous Arrogance
The fact that Yellowstone is ~1,300 miles from their starting point. Most of the Dragon's attention would be focused on the West Coast/Canada as they are nearer and so provide much more immediate sources of people to enslave. Its general motivation is that it covets life itself and wants to horde as much of it as possible. Creating an undead horde is the easiest way to go about it.

The hope is that the players will not even be aware of the Dragon until long after their adventuring career has started. They may not even become aware of the Dragon at all in their adventure. My hope is that they either escape to Canada (about 550miles away), or try to set up some sort of East-Coast resistance to the Zombie horde. The dragon is an issue for a later campaign, or for them once they hit later levels (probably around 15 or so, if they can also raise an army).

But this is getting awfully PEACH for a thread in roleplaying games. While I did ask, the general point of the thread was to discuss how the post apocalyptic economy would work, so I could work out how best to conduct trade with the other surviors.

[Prime32]

How did electricity vanish? Because the first thing I would try if this happened would be to set up a lightning rod, and the second would be to learn shocking grasp.

EDIT: Oh, you said electrical equipment. Well, it shouldn't take too long for people to start rebuilding computers... that can interface with magic.

[thubby]

all major currencies are currently fiat money, meaning they are only as valuable as people say it is. as such it could well stay in use.
i think you're underestimating the ease with which one can make munitions. anyone with the know-how could make crude shot from household items. the guns themselves would be extremely valuable though.

tobacco and booze sell, always.

[Gravitron5000]

... and so it begins

[Weezer]

I would imagine that the primary means of exchange would quickly become almost exclusively bottle caps. It makes perfect sense, they're pretty much ubiquitous, small, light, easy to stack, and almost impossible to replicate in post-apocalyptic circumstances. All in all i think they are your answer for what would make a good currency after an apocalypse like the one you describe.

[Temet Nosce]

all major currencies are currently fiat money, meaning they are only as valuable as people say it is. as such it could well stay in use.
i think you're underestimating the ease with which one can make munitions. anyone with the know-how could make crude shot from household items. the guns themselves would be extremely valuable though.

tobacco and booze sell, always.

Further, reusing ammunition is even more ridiculously easy and something people practice even today (I used to when I used my guns more). It's not at all hard to refill a cartridge.

Also, assuming you're basing this in the real world... Some people are going to be abusing the rules. It won't take that long for them to notice if things are working under D&D rules.

Oh, and how long after the apocalypse is this? If the sun is really blotted out and electric items nonfunctional there's not going to be a food shortage - there's going to be a food absence. There simply won't be any in most places and there very well might not be anyone left alive if it's very long after.

[cheezewizz2000]

Oh, and how long after the apocalypse is this?

2 weeks, so not long.

... and so it begins

I dunno, that magma chambre looks an awful lot like a Dragon's lair to me... I should know, I'm a geologist

Further, reusing ammunition is even more ridiculously easy and something people practice even today (I used to when I used my guns more). It's not at all hard to refill a cartridge.

I was not aware of that. I thought bullets were a use once only kind of thing. That changes things slightly as I thought bullets would make a useful replacement for coin. The fact that they get used eventually would help to keep their value up.

Also, assuming you're basing this in the real world... Some people are going to be abusing the rules. It won't take that long for them to notice if things are working under D&D rules.

Besides one artificier at Cern, I don't think I'm going to have any 4th wall breaking characters that know they're in a game, and he's going to be bat-boop insane from the sudden, infinite knowledge he has.

[Shademan]

you might wanna check out the D20 Modern Apocalypse trade system. buuut I think that goes for a wee bit more apocalyptic apocalypse...er...I mean... y'know.... later. long after the doom and destruction.

I might be wrong though.... just check it out.

[Johel]

I would imagine that the primary means of exchange would quickly become almost exclusively bottle caps. It makes perfect sense, they're pretty much ubiquitous, small, light, easy to stack, and almost impossible to replicate in post-apocalyptic circumstances. All in all i think they are your answer for what would make a good currency after an apocalypse like the one you describe.

The fact that they are useless except as metal scrap means people would probably just not use it at first.

People used metal currency first because it was rare, precious and durable. And when I say precious, I mean you can always melt those copper coins and use the metal for something else...like jewels or simply containers. After that, we kept using it mainly because it was tradition and still durable enough for everyday transactions...unlike paper money, which has to be changed after changing hands a few hundred times.

In a post apocalypse world where cities are full of metal, caps would just be more metal. A good currency would be tins at first. They are durable (some can be stored for years), useful (yummy, yummy), convert themselves into goods (they are goods...) and while a bit heavy, they are still lighter and more practical than gold.

After a while, once the first city-states are established and can store food and goods with minimum risk to be pillaged, these cities will issue their own money (maybe bottle caps ?), that one can exchange for food and goods stored into the city's warehouse. In effect, a coin would entitle its owner to take something from the warehouse if he wish so.

As some city-states survive and grow in size, so do their warehouses, to the point where they can actually issue more coins than they have goods in their warehouses, as people trust the coin's theorical value. This actually will allow city-states to basically live through debts, by anticipating future incomes to pay actual expenses.

Some city-states would abuse the "trust system" and emit too many coins. Once people would want to exchange those coins for warehouse goods, since the city-states won't have enough goods, they'll increase the price of the warehouse goods, reducing the actual value of their coins. These city-states will collapse soon or later, as nobody want to exchange his 50 tins for 50 coins if these 50 coins will only buy him 30 tins a few days latter.

Some city-states will understand the importance to keep a near-parity between stored goods and number of coins. These city-states will endebt themselves but to a manageable level so that they'll never need to raise their price, keeping the coin's value high. Eventually, because they can afford to pay latter for project and live of their debt, these city-states will be able to improve their infrastructure, to teach people and attract the qualified individuals.

Finally, once a city-state can reach a point where it can make deal with other city-states using only its own currency, it's a true nation, as the other city-states trust the main city-state's capacity to supply goods upon request enough to let down their own currency.

[Beleriphon]

I was not aware of that. I thought bullets were a use once only kind of thing. That changes things slightly as I thought bullets would make a useful replacement for coin. The fact that they get used eventually would help to keep their value up.

Its not so much the actual bullet you shoot at the zombies, but the brass casing that holds the bullet and propellant. If you really think about it though a muzzle loading musket is easy enough to make (compared to an MP5) and doesn't even need the brass casing.

[Riffington]

So seconding the resilience of human industry, including people making their own bullets or reusing them.
Food will be a huge issue. As previously stated, supermarkets will be quickly emptied.
In terms of money, dollars will probably keep their value until something replaces them. They are easily portable, and people are used to using them, and people trust that they're worth something. It's true that food and ammo will be more valuable - but I think dollars will stay valuable longer than the US government stays up. The only thing that will stop that is if there's massive counterfeiting (or something similar by the Mint).

Utah will fare relatively well (some Words of Wisdom there require keeping a year's food stockpiled)

[Telonius]

Also, assuming you're basing this in the real world... Some people are going to be abusing the rules. It won't take that long for them to notice if things are working under D&D rules.

On that note, the Local Gaming Store will replace universities as centers of learning.

Bicycles would become highly prized, as would horses.

The bigger cities would really be up a creek. No traffic lights, no public transit, no refrigeration ... I would expect large-scale food riots within a few weeks. Cities of over a million people would be unlikely to survive unless they have some seriously committed and organized citizens. I could see some mountain strongholds like Denver and Pittsburgh surviving in some form - Pittsburgh especially, given the number of surrounding Amish communities that never used electricity anyway. (Though given its history, it might be the first location any aspiring Necromancer considers to start his zombie apocalypse).

Basic skills are going to be highly prized. Any Ren-faire people are going to be very sought-after. You know how to forge a sword? Great, you're the next Rockefeller.

[LibraryOgre]

1) Grab SM Stirling's Dies the Fire. Their situation is different (no massive fire dragon, they also lose firearms and a few other things), but the fact is that pretty much everyone living in a city is going to die. Most folks don't have enough food to last through a long siege, and they don't have the weapons to last one, either. Even folks who can reload their own brass are going to run low on powder and lead eventually.
In big cities, it gets even worse. You might see a few fortified subdivisions, but reducing a city's police department to the horse patrol, and their communications to horseback at best, and you've got problems coordinating; for reference, take a look at the city of Houston on a map... from Katy to Channelview is about a day's hard march. There may be seven or eight police departments in that area, but you're still looking at a LOT of ground to cover.

2) A lot comes down to the distribution of magic. Do today's modern magicians have spell powers? What about priests? If the 80-year-old Catholic priest can cast Create Food and Water, you're going to have a lot of Catholics in that area. If some of those modern druids can manage "Purify Food and Water", you're going to have a lot of folks following them. If today's magicians can now throw firebolts which can drive off the people coming to steal food... well, they're going to be popular, and may make themselves into tyrants.

If you're basing it in your area, drive around for a while. See what you think would survive the apocalypse. Look at places near your house where food and tools can be gathered, and realize those are targets as soon as the rioting starts.

For the first couple of days (maybe even weeks), you'll have a barter economy... people trading old-world valuables for food and tools. That will tail off quickly, however, as soon as food and tools start becoming scarce on the market. Then, economy is going to be based on real value. We have a somewhat arbitrary value system right now, but when you're a turnip or three away from starving, someone else offering you a lot of gold is not going to convince you to give up your turnips. It's only when things get stable enough to produce things that you'll have a more arbitrary and less use-based economy start to emerge. When you know that an ounce of gold will buy you food, you're willing to take an ounce of gold in exchange for food.

[cheezewizz2000]

Not my area, unfortunately. I'm UK based, but I have other, less zombie-apocalypse based ideas for the UK (Fey Wildhunts, cities taken over by forests, massive reduction in farmland).

Priests and druids will have powers, but no one will be higher than level 3. In some exceptional cases, an army chaplain may be level 5 or 7, but most of his levels will be in fighter. High level spellcasters just don't exist. Magicians in the sense of party illusionists will probably have bard levels. They may find they are able to do a few more tricks more realisticly, but nothing that may afford them the ability to be leaders of men.

The ocasional awkward kid will find themselves with sorcerous powers, but that's the extent of arcanists. I doubt any magicians (arcane or divine) will have enough clout to do anything spectacular.

I will look for Dies the Fire, it sounds interesting.

[erikun]

Two weeks after D-day? Food is going to be the #1 priority, and will be for several years. (At least until the environment recovers enough that you can plant crops, harvest wild plants, or hunt something edible.) Weapons are going to be #2, as they help gather and protect #1. Modes of transportations, along with communications if possible will also be high on the list.

"Currency" will probably be preserved foods, at least for awhile. Tin cans especially, because you can tell the exact volume of food and they are hard to fake. Some people may fiercely gather/hoard gold and jewelry, but it really wouldn't be traded frequently - prehaps exchanging a pretty necklace for a can of food, but nothing along the lines of a gold market.

Places holding physical, written knowledge will probably be very big hotspots. It may be the end of the world, but people haven't suddenly become stupid. Books can tell you how to make cars and computers, or at least how to make bows or hotwire a factory. Some extreme anarchists will likely try to burn them down, but expect most places to guard libraries at least as well as the food pantry.

(If things go on like this for a decade or so, libraries will likely lose significance. The longer the knowledge is useless, the less worthwhile it will be.)

Churches will be popular gathering spots, for obvious reasons. Good or bad.

[Johel]

So seconding the resilience of human industry, including people making their own bullets or reusing them.
Food will be a huge issue. As previously stated, supermarkets will be quickly emptied.
In terms of money, dollars will probably keep their value until something replaces them. They are easily portable, and people are used to using them, and people trust that they're worth something. It's true that food and ammo will be more valuable - but I think dollars will stay valuable longer than the US government stays up. The only thing that will stop that is if there's massive counterfeiting (or something similar by the Mint).

Utah will fare relatively well (some Words of Wisdom there require keeping a year's food stockpiled)

1. The only reason why dollar has any value is because US industry produce goods and services, which are taxed by the governement.
2. Rather than taking a share of the goods you produce, the governement ask you to pay taxes with dollars.
3. On the side, the governement buy you goods and services with dollars that it prints.
4. Now, the governement has the goods he needs and you have the dollars to pay your taxes to the governement and probably keep some dollars aside.
5. As time went by, you exchange your remaining dollars for goods and services that other people have produced. These people accept your dollars because they have taxes to pay too.
6. When dealing on an international level, US companies ask to be paid in dollars because that's what they'll have to use then to purchase goods at home and to pay their taxes at home.
7. Other countries accept the dollars as a currency because they know there'll always be US companies to deliver goods and services in exchange for dollars.

The government is the first in the dollar chain and the last in it too. Taxes are some kind of 0-wealth service : you have to pay them but you receive nothing in exchange. Each cycle bring enough value to government to justify the use of worthless papers as currency, since people HAVE to pay taxes with that currency because of the law.

Now, if the US government disappear, there's no more law and no more taxes in dollars, unless some warlords fancy Georges Washington.

Whoever is last in the dollar chain is stuck with tons of worthless paper unless he can somehow exchange them for goods... but since the whole industry felt to the ground, there won't be much to exchange them for and nobody will want to be the last in the dollar chain. Result : massive inflation as there's a lot of dollars but very few goods and, since the main universal buyer for dollars (aka the government) disappeared, there's no reason to trust the potential value of a inflating currency.

[thubby]

Basic skills are going to be highly prized. Any Ren-faire people are going to be very sought-after. You know how to forge a sword? Great, you're the next Rockefeller.

i doubt it, guns still work. and they can be made without electricity.

people, a lot of the stuff in the world still works without electricity! yes losing electronics would be disastrous, but it wouldn't throw us into the middle ages.

[Thatguyoverther]

What about Clerics?

Does every priest, reverend, pastor, imam, rabbi and monk get to tap into divine magic or what?

It would be interesting to see the Pope as an epic level divine caster.

[Telonius]

i doubt it, guns still work. and they can be made without electricity.

people, a lot of the stuff in the world still works without electricity! yes losing electronics would be disastrous, but it wouldn't throw us into the middle ages.

Guns do still work, but they eventually run out of ammunition. You have to have a fairly high-functioning society to start mass-producing bullets without the use of an electricity- and automobile-enabled factory. (Gotta transport the raw materials to your workshop, ship them out to the soldiers afterwards, have enough leftover food to feed your armorers, have enough light to work by, enough fuel to heat the crucibles, etc).

Even something as relatively simple as a bullet requires several different kinds of materials to produce - not all of which can be easily found everywhere, especially if you're looking for smokeless powder instead of gunpowder.

[cheezewizz2000]

How the priests of the modern world is a little beyond the scope of the Forum's rules. The pope MIGHT be a cleric, but that requires at least a modicum of practice casting spells. As for epic level, the pope has not been casting spells every day for his entire life, so he isn't used to having that sort of power coursing through his frail human body. He will probably find he is able to cast level 1 spells.

Rank is not level, and Obama isn't a level 20 aristocrat just because he's president. If anything, most world leaders are level 1-3 Experts and Bards with maxed ranks in perform (oratory) and skill focus.

[LibraryOgre]

Not my area, unfortunately. I'm UK based, but I have other, less zombie-apocalypse based ideas for the UK (Fey Wildhunts, cities taken over by forests, massive reduction in farmland).

Priests and druids will have powers, but no one will be higher than level 3. In some exceptional cases, an army chaplain may be level 5 or 7, but most of his levels will be in fighter. High level spellcasters just don't exist. Magicians in the sense of party illusionists will probably have bard levels. They may find they are able to do a few more tricks more realisticly, but nothing that may afford them the ability to be leaders of men.

The ocasional awkward kid will find themselves with sorcerous powers, but that's the extent of arcanists. I doubt any magicians (arcane or divine) will have enough clout to do anything spectacular.

I will look for Dies the Fire, it sounds interesting.

In addition to Dies the Fire, get the second in the series, The Protectors War. It goes into what happened in England a lot more (short version: The Army, along with Charles and elements of the government make an escape with some people to the Isle of Wight to escape rioting looters. When most of the people were dead of starvation, they began to repopulate Britain. Then Charles married an Icelander and went a bit nuts, but that's another story).

In terms of magicians, I'm not referring to party illusionists; I'm talking about folks who study magic in the modern day. The Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, various chaos magicians, houngans, ceremonial magicians, etc. Some versions of modern magical theory aren't that different from 3.x psionics, while others go heavily into ceremony and the like.

[cheezewizz2000]

In terms of magicians, I'm not referring to party illusionists; I'm talking about folks who study magic in the modern day. The Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, various chaos magicians, houngans, ceremonial magicians, etc. Some versions of modern magical theory aren't that different from 3.x psionics, while others go heavily into ceremony and the like.

Hmm... Probably warlocks for the ones with any genuine ability, not necesarily diabolical, there would be some fey pacts in there. Others who are on to something would probably be experts with ranks in knowlege (arcana) and spellcraft. They would be instrumental in setting up the first magical universities. The riuals they desribe may produce real arcane effects, but not in the same way as a spell. After all, most spells have a casting time of less than 6 seconds, while some rituals take hours. Wizardry would essentially be the art of taking those rituals and performing a version stripped-down enough to still produce the effect, but take less time.