I Hate Fort Saves...

[Rasman]

Well, I've come to realize that, playing a melee class makes it hard on you when all your abilities revolve around your enemies' Fort Saves. Everything our DM seems to send at us has GREAT Fort saves, crap like Frost Giants and the like. Are there ways around this for a melee, non-caster, class?

All I've found so far are Ki Straps that increase the DC on my Stunning Fist, and SF like abilities, by 2. But that's really it, at this point.

Also, what kind/types of creatures tend to have bad Fort saves, things that I should be looking to try and use my SF abilities on?

[shadow_archmagi]

Stunning Fist

I'm going to be ninja'd for taking the time to mention monk is bad.

Oh no everything has fort saves

Welcome to the world of "Melee characters do not get nice things."

Generally speaking, the less front-line the enemy, the less their fort save. Attack wizards and things like that. Generally, if it didn't like your fist, it REALLY won't like your stunning fist.

[subject42]

Get the wounding enchantment on 50 shuriken and then massacre their Constitution score. It should make beating their saves easier.

[SurlySeraph]

This is why you get into the enemy's back row, where all the casters and archers are. If your DM is just sending big piles of meat and Fort saves at you, then complain to him.

[jmbrown]

Even casters have decent fort saves through bonuses or spells. I don't know what it is but Fort seems to be the easiest save to increase above all others. A lot of abilities that use fort to save such as poison, paralyzation, stun, and negative energy can be negated through magic items altogether. There are more fort saves requiring those conditions than there are reflex and will.

[Proven_Paradox]

That's because constitution is important for HP too. An optimized caster's secondary score is always con, so they're probably going to have decent fort saves even though their class progression is bad.

Combining your stunning fist with some source of con damage is a good idea though. Get a wounding weapon, mess them up with it, and then use your stun. You're still playing a Monk and therefore at a disadvantage, but it's better than nothing.

[Rasman]

I'm going to be ninja'd for taking the time to mention monk is bad.

Welcome to the world of "Melee characters do not get nice things."

Generally speaking, the less front-line the enemy, the less their fort save. Attack wizards and things like that. Generally, if it didn't like your fist, it REALLY won't like your stunning fist.

there is NOT someone walking up behind you with piano wire right now, honest

our game is Pathfinder, so it's not as bad at the 3.5 monk, not AMAZING, but Imp Natural Attack makes for good damage rolls now

What about Goblins and Hobgoblins in general? Break their neck or Stun and whail?

Get the wounding enchantment on 50 shuriken and then massacre their Constitution score. It should make beating their saves easier.

dur...wound...I knew that...it's not too expensive either, so I might have to just because it's wrong...my wizard just got Blood Star, which does con damage as well, which helps...he also laugh's manically about it all the time...our DM kinda went pale over it

This is why you get into the enemy's back row, where all the casters and archers are. If your DM is just sending big piles of meat and Fort saves at you, then complain to him.

in his defense, we were fighting frost giants and I did kinda get laughed at for trying to stun one...didn't realize they had retardedly good fort saves at the time...but I figure we'll see some stuff that's less...meaty, eventually

That's because constitution is important for HP too. An optimized caster's secondary score is always con, so they're probably going to have decent fort saves even though their class progression is bad.

Combining your stunning fist with some source of con damage is a good idea though. Get a wounding weapon, mess them up with it, and then use your stun. You're still playing a Monk and therefore at a disadvantage, but it's better than nothing.

I don't really think it's as bad as people say, playing a monk that is. It's just a hard class to play in an optimized game because they're more limited than other classes, which I don't mind because for my first session, it really simplifies things for me.

The only time I really feel at a disadvantage is when our fighter isn't there, because that leaves me as the only real melee fighter, our 3 rogues are all cowards and only stab things when something else had it's attention.

[jmbrown]

our game is Pathfinder, so it's not as bad at the 3.5 monk, not AMAZING, but Imp Natural Attack makes for good damage rolls now

I guess I shouldn't tell you they officially errata'ed that out a few months ago

[Eldariel]

Generally, the solution to high Fort types is simple dealing fcktons of damage. That tends to be their strongest defense, but they tend to have relatively poor AC meaning you can Power Attack efficiently, and unlike Fort, HP will come down quickly enough. Of course, the REAL solution to those types is to have your caster mindrape them.

The only way a melee type can hit Will-save is ToB, or few Fear-effects. Imperious Command [Drow of the Underdark]-feat enabled Intimidate, while not strictly a Will-targeting attack, is close enough and works fine vs. some low Wis brutes. It's by far the best option available.

[Rasman]

I guess I shouldn't tell you they officially errata'ed that out a few months ago

what? did you say potato?

I assumed that because in PHII they mentioned that the monk could/should take Imp Natural Attack that I still could...they really just don't like me having nice things...

Generally, the solution to high Fort types is simple dealing fcktons of damage. That tends to be their strongest defense, but they tend to have relatively poor AC meaning you can Power Attack efficiently, and unlike Fort, HP will come down quickly enough. Of course, the REAL solution to those types is to have your caster mindrape them.

The only way a melee type can hit Will-save is ToB, or few Fear-effects. Imperious Command [Drow of the Underdark]-feat enabled Intimidate, while not strictly a Will-targeting attack, is close enough and works fine vs. some low Wis brutes. It's by far the best option available.

I WISH I could get Frightful Presense, that would make my day, now that I think about it. It's pretty feat intensive, if I remember correctly...don't have my Books with me so I can't go look for it. I'll take a loot at Imperius Command, but anything that affects my Cha is kinda going to blow because that's my worst stat.

[AslanCross]

what? did you say potato?

I assumed that because in PHII they mentioned that the monk could/should take Imp Natural Attack that I still could...they really just don't like me having nice things...

I believe there was an official errata for Pathfinder that said Imp. Nat. Atk. doesn't work with the Monk's unarmed strike. :P

<insert obligatory "If you want a martial artist, get a swordsage" rant here, with the corollary "too bad if your group doesn't use ToB">

[olentu]

I believe there was an official errata for Pathfinder that said Imp. Nat. Atk. doesn't work with the Monk's unarmed strike. :P

<insert obligatory "If you want a martial artist, get a swordsage" rant here, with the corollary "too bad if your group doesn't use ToB">

I recall this being the relevant post.

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards...eats&page=1#45

[Rasman]

so...now that my Imp Nat Attack hopes and dreams have been crushed...any ideas for a new feat of almost as awesome...?

[Ryuuk]

Well, if you took Improved Natural Attack at first, maybe you could replace it with Dreadful Wrath? The save may be weak, but you'll get the Frightful presence you've been wanting off with every charge or full attack.

[Rasman]

Well, if you took Improved Natural Attack at first, maybe you could replace it with Dreadful Wrath? The save may be weak, but you'll get the Frightful presence you've been wanting off with every charge or full attack.

might have to get that one houseruled, tbh, but definitely close to what I'm looking for

[Eldariel]

I WISH I could get Frightful Presense, that would make my day, now that I think about it. It's pretty feat intensive, if I remember correctly...don't have my Books with me so I can't go look for it. I'll take a loot at Imperius Command, but anything that affects my Cha is kinda going to blow because that's my worst stat.

Ah yeah, Monk, right. You're ****ed. Just try to deal a fckton of damage, or hire a caster.

[Ashtar]

Or just ignore the "correction" and keep on playing as it is. It didn't cause your character to be unbalanced and you had fun with it. There's no LN mafia breaking down your door saying you have to... <knock> <knock>

Hun, I wonder who's at my door at this time of ni... Ahhhhhhh!

[Asbestos]

Or just ignore the "correction" and keep on playing as it is. It didn't cause your character to be unbalanced and you had fun with it. There's no LN mafia breaking down your door saying you have to... <knock> <knock>

Hun, I wonder who's at my door at this time of ni... Ahhhhhhh!

Incredible, he still had time to type 'Ahhhhhh!'. This is like people that mention Candlejack but still have time to subm

[jmbrown]

Incredible, he still had time to type 'Ahhhhhh!'. This is like people that mention Candlejack but still have time to subm

The Rules Mafia and Candlejack are both polite enough to hit submit for y

[Mewtarthio]

so...now that my Imp Nat Attack hopes and dreams have been crushed...any ideas for a new feat of almost as awesome...?

Ignore the errata and hope nobody else notices?

[Bob]

Monks tend to have 3 situational ways of impeding enemies in combat: trip, grapple, and stunning... which would be great if it weren't for the fact that they are all resisted by the same guy.

also, ina should work for monks, their uas is treated as a natural weapon for all effects, class feature.

[Ashiel]

Have you considered picking up Ability Focus? To my knowledge, Paizo hasn't errata'd the ability to take Ability Focus. It's a general feat that is used to increase the DC of your special abilities, which can include Ex, Su, and Sp abilities, including Stunning fist. It's sort of your version of the Spell Focus feats (which is pretty fair since it's less broad than spell focus but gives +2 instead of +1).

That would at least help your stunning fist be harder to resist, especially with your +2 magic item.

Food for thought.

[jmbrown]

Monks tend to have 3 situational ways of impeding enemies in combat: trip, grapple, and stunning... which would be great if it weren't for the fact that they are all resisted by the same guy.

also, ina should work for monks, their uas is treated as a natural weapon for all effects, class feature.

But it's not considered an actual natural weapon or else monks could make multiple attacks like other creatures with multiple appendages can. The prerequisite for INA is "Natural weapon." A monk has unarmed strike (which is specifically considered a weapon) with the additional ability that magic fang or other effects that target natural weapons can also target it. He doesn't have an actual natural weapon.

Just another hotly contested debate between RAW and RAI.

[sofawall]

But it's not considered an actual natural weapon or else monks could make multiple attacks like other creatures with multiple appendages can. The prerequisite for INA is "Natural weapon." A monk has unarmed strike (which is specifically considered a weapon) with the additional ability that magic fang or other effects that target natural weapons can also target it. He doesn't have an actual natural weapon.

Just another hotly contested debate between RAW and RAI.

I'm pretty sure it's a debate between RAW and RAW, myself.

[kentma57]

I'm going to be ninja'd for taking the time to mention monk is bad.

Not true by my experience. (at high levels)

Welcome to the world of "Melee characters do not get nice things."

Probably more true than your last statement. (in general it is true but there are some exceptions)

[Seatbelt]

Not true by my experience. (at high levels)



Probably more true than your last statement. (in general it is true but there are some exceptions)

In my experience blaster mages are awesome and fighters are pretty good classes. But then the builds I make with the help of the playground rock everyone's world so hard the DM gets frustrated so I tone it down. In the actual world a lot of the optimization around here is very strong. But that doesn't mean that the monk class sucks. Just because poor americans can afford a TV and a fridge doesn't make them not poor.

[Rasman]

Have you considered picking up Ability Focus? To my knowledge, Paizo hasn't errata'd the ability to take Ability Focus. It's a general feat that is used to increase the DC of your special abilities, which can include Ex, Su, and Sp abilities, including Stunning fist. It's sort of your version of the Spell Focus feats (which is pretty fair since it's less broad than spell focus but gives +2 instead of +1).

That would at least help your stunning fist be harder to resist, especially with your +2 magic item.

Food for thought.

that...is actually pretty tasty food for thought...is there a chain for that?

[Thurbane]

You could also try debuffing the opponents saves, as well/instead of boosting your DC.

[Ponce]

Ability Focus is a big yes.

There are also some feats that can enhance your stunning fist. Two in particular are in Sandstorm, I believe. One applies the stun effect to all adjacent enemies, as well as your target. Another adds a round of being Dazed to the effect, basically doubling the usefulness of Stunning Fist.

[olentu]

Ability Focus is a big yes.

There are also some feats that can enhance your stunning fist. Two in particular are in Sandstorm, I believe. One applies the stun effect to all adjacent enemies, as well as your target. Another adds a round of being Dazed to the effect, basically doubling the usefulness of Stunning Fist.

I recall pharaoh’s fist applying the stun effect to all creatures adjacent to the target rather then all enemies so one might want to get reach. I can not however remember the other feat so can not say what if anything it does.