Flurry of Blows + TWF = ?

[Beelzebub1111]

Yes, yes, I know monks blow chunks, but one of my players really wanted to be one. My question is, if someone took TWF and uses a quarterstaff, how would that stack with flurry of blows?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Quite possibly.

[tahu88810]

I don't think I've ever seen any real rules on that, but I think it'd be feasible.

[Faleldir]

It would stack very inefficiently.

[jokey665]

I don't know quite how it works by RAW, but I rule that it stacks with flurry, as does Improved TWF, etc.

[PinkysBrain]

The attacks and attack bonus penalties stack ...

So a first level monk with TWF and using flurry would attack at -4/-4/-4 (assuming a light off hand weapon or equivalent).

A first level monk with TWF and rapidshot (requires flaws) using flurry throwing shurikens would attack at -6/-6/-6/-6.

[Coidzor]

Which raises the chance of getting a nat 20 in a round... but not much else...

[Crafty Cultist]

Its specificly states that flurrying with a quarterstaff gets you an extra attack with each end

[Beelzebub1111]

Which raises the chance of getting a nat 20 in a round... but not much else...

with my group? that's what I'm afraid of...

Also using a quarterstaff...

[Zeta Kai]

A first level monk with TWF and rapidshot (requires flaws) using flurry throwing shurikens would attack at -6/-6/-6/-6.

...Which wouldn't hit the broad side of a dead horse. Melee-users can't have nice things, but Monk can't even have okay things.

[Beelzebub1111]

The attacks and attack bonus penalties stack ...

So a first level monk with TWF and using flurry would attack at -4/-4/-4 (assuming a light off hand weapon or equivalent).

A first level monk with TWF and rapidshot (requires flaws) using flurry throwing shurikens would attack at -6/-6/-6/-6.

Let's take a look at this at 15th level though,

+9/+9/+9/+9/+4/+4/-1/-1
Not including any weapon focus or magical or strength bonuses.

[arguskos]

Let's take a look at this at 15th level though,

+9/+9/+9/+9/+4/+4/-1/-1
Not including any weapon focus or magical or strength bonuses.

Let's look at MM1 CR 15s, shall we?
Marut, AC 34
Vampire Mnk 9/Shadowdancer 4, AC 32

Also, some CR 14s:
Nalfeshnee, AC 27
Nightwing, AC 30
Truly Horrid Umber Hulk, AC 22

So, your spread of 9s, even with some bonuses, isn't doing so hot. Just sayin'. I mean, it's a cute idea, but really? You need a set of bonuses that are at least +15 to break even with the Marut. And, these aren't even that tough as far as critters go really. You better have some AMAZING bonuses to attack. Possible? Yes. Good? No.

[Beelzebub1111]

Never said it was any good, but with my group...but to say that they roll twenties a lot is an understatement.

[obtusehobbit]

The key to a monk Shuriken thrower is the Master Thrower PrC. Make all of those attacks Touch attacks and it looks a lot better. Finally to-hit is one of the easiest things to raise, so do some tweaking and you can hit quite often with a Flurry + TWF. I know it is not the worlds best, but I have personally used the combo to great effect.

[Coidzor]

Have you checked to see if they're using weighted dice?

[PinkysBrain]

Its specificly states that flurrying with a quarterstaff gets you an extra attack with each end

No it doesn't.

[Optimystik]

Have you checked to see if they're using weighted dice?

Or those funny ones with two 20s instead of a 20 and a 2.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The problem with the handful of shuriken is that they do no damage by themselves. If you have no extra damage output modifiers, then there is no point to tossing a dozen shuriken for a dozen damage when the barbarian was doing 100+ damage six levels ago...

[Beelzebub1111]

Have you checked to see if they're using weighted dice?

Yes, and I just don't understand it. I checked the weight, I checked the edges, I bought him new dice! Every die this man touches won't roll below a 15.

[Eldariel]

Yes, and I just don't understand it. I checked the weight, I checked the edges, I bought him new dice! Every die this man touches won't roll below a 15.

Maybe it's the rolling technique? I can roll pretty much only one small subset of numbers if I want to and I haven't really put effort into learning the art. There's a reason those "dice"-players can make money.

[mabriss lethe]

well. I *did* find a way to make flurry +twf useful, it just requires being any sort of class/critter that gains an energy drain attack.

Pick up improved energy drain after that. Start feeding on any and everything you can. Foes, livestock, villagers (see also, livestock) a helpful caster with the summon elemental reserve feat becomes your all you can eat buffet.

Admittedly, this is far from what was intended, and is borderline rules abuse (the only mitigating factor is that most of the means to acquire an energy drain attack leave a character so BAB starved from LA and racial HD that this is the only way to make up for it.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

well. I *did* find a way to make flurry +twf useful, it just requires being any sort of class/critter that gains an energy drain attack.

Pick up improved energy drain after that. Start feeding on any and everything you can. Foes, livestock, villagers (see also, livestock) a helpful caster with the summon elemental reserve feat becomes your all you can eat buffet.

Admittedly, this is far from what was intended, and is borderline rules abuse (the only mitigating factor is that most of the means to acquire an energy drain attack leave a character so BAB starved from LA and racial HD that this is the only way to make up for it.

Most of the energy drain attacks are standard actions or only apply to a certain attack. The only one that isn't, IIRC, is the Soul Drinker's.

[mabriss lethe]

Most of the energy drain attacks are standard actions or only apply to a certain attack. The only one that isn't, IIRC, is the Soul Drinker's.

Not the point of the exercise. The point is that with the Improved Energy Drain feat, you gain a bonus on rolls to hit, saves, skill and ability checks in addition to the 5 temp hp. there's no cap on it. You gorge yourself using your energy drain attack out of combat, the buff from it lasts an hour, so when you enter combat, your attack bonus is through the roof, you're as safe from spellcasters as you can really ever hope to be, can take an enormous pounding and you're probably going first in initiative anyway since initiative is a dexterity check. At that point, you can more than make up for the penalties for flurrying with twf.

Also: (some examples here)
-Vampire- a vampire's energy drain attack works with any natural weapon it can use.

-Necrotic Focus weapon- allows a creature with energy drain to apply it to a successful attack made with the weapon.

[Eloel]

Or on top of that build, add Master Thrower, for Palm Throw, and the thing that lets you do throws as touch attacks, and the one that lets you hit flatfooted.

Sure, you have a hefty penalty, but you hit flatfooted touch AC. Pretty much 15, maximum.

Now, add Flame Arrow (or smt like that) to a bunch of shurikens, and unload them all at round1...

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Stacking on additional damage also works. Comboing with Master Thrower for Sneaky Shot to make all your attacks force your opponent to be flat-footed plus a bunch of precision-based damage applied can make some reasonable damage output. Weak Spot is the capstone, of course, and makes landing shots even easier.

So with a dozen attacks, at +4d6 +(character level) Sneak Attacks... that's pretty decent damage output.

Of course, to max out the damage output, you're gonna need a one-level dip in a bunch of classes for the sneak attack dice, plus eventually Swordsage for Assassin's Stance (which can also net you Shadow Blade for Dex to damage), plus all five levels of Master thrower. Going four levels of Bloodstorm Blade plus a pair of Sai may be necessary in order to get Shadow Blade damage, so it may not be worth it unless you've played with boosting it a bunch.

Had a character named Gat Ling I made once who did this.

[Yuki Akuma]

...Didn't we have this thread like a week ago?

[ericgrau]

FWIW the FAQ says flurry, TWF and rapid shot may all be combined at once. And there is no reason they couldn't be. So a level 5 hasted monk can make 5 shuriken attacks or a mix of attacks involving all monk weapons or unarmed strikes, at least 1 off hand weapon attack and 2 thrown weapon attacks... all effectively at a base attack bonus of -1.

[Kaiyanwang]

FWIW the FAQ says flurry, TWF and rapid shot may all be combined at once. And there is no reason they couldn't be. So a level 5 hasted monk can make 5 shuriken attacks or a mix of attacks involving all monk weapons or unarmed strikes, at least 1 off hand weapon attack and 2 thrown weapon attacks... all effectively at a base attack bonus of -1.

This. - I posted that FAQ answer, IIRC, and I guess I'm not the first. It's one of our endless monk threads.

[Indon]

Its specificly states that flurrying with a quarterstaff gets you an extra attack with each end

Not quite. It says:

In the case of the quarterstaff, each end counts as a separate weapon for the purpose of using the flurry of blows ability. Even though the quarterstaff requires two hands to use, a monk may still intersperse unarmed strikes with quarterstaff strikes, assuming that she has enough attacks in her flurry of blows routine to do so.

In fact, a TWF'ing Monk would never need to use the main part of their weapon - they could make all their Flurry attacks as unarmed strikes then all their TWF off-hand attacks as Quarterstaff attacks (and possibly also unarmed strikes, not sure there).

[ericgrau]

...Which wouldn't hit the broad side of a dead horse. Melee-users can't have nice things, but Monk can't even have okay things.

I didn't really address this in my last post. In the -6/-6/-6/-6 example, he's not including ability score bonus to hit. Don't forget his example was level 1. Only one of those attacks have to land to break even. Maybe 2 every once in a while to counteract the lower damage. And it's situational: you can single attack high AC opponents and flurry low AC ones for crazy damage. Not to mention that at higher levels power attack has the exact same problem, yet that doesn't keep people from using it and/or cheesing away the to-hit problem.