Medieval Setting Help

[Akabana_Shin]

Good night.

I am working on a medieval human type of setting (for 3.5), where magic is scarce and almost non-existent. Classes are mostly martial (and a few others as druids, clerics, paladins and bards fluffed), but I wanted to make at least one or two arcane classes (and also do something about the previous mentioned classes spellcasting). I was thinking in a artificer of sorts (more engineering than magic) and a wizard (gained magic through ancient knowledge).

The thing is, I want to nerf really hard the spellcasting abilities. Many of my campaigns had been based strongly on magic, and I want to change.

So, any ideas on how to nerf the actual wizard to make it more balanced on par with the other classes? Any other suggestions for this campaign?

[Dhavaer]

The wu jen uses the same mechanic as the wizard with a much weaker spell list. The warlock is a magical class that's much more on par with martial classes, but it doesn't have much of a scholarly aspect.
If you're using unmodified artificers, though, wizards shouldn't be much of a problem.

[Crow]

Conan D20!

[kamikasei]

Yeah, your best bet is simply to use a different system. "Magic isn't powerful" isn't a setting for 3.5, it's a radical overhaul.

What you could perhaps try is picking a few classes at a comparable power level, like, say, warlocks, binders, incarnum classes, and ToB classes, and let people refluff them as needed to represent a variety of archetypes for which the standard classes are too powerful.

[Thurbane]

Make all casters Truenamers. That'll nerf 'em hard.

[J.Gellert]

Conan D20!

I second that.

[Akabana_Shin]

Conan D20? I am not much familiar with other systems, tbh.

And I disagree that a campaign low on magic can't be done with 3.5. You just need imagination, and tweak a few things.

[deuxhero]

I am working on a medieval human type of setting (for 3.5), where magic is scarce and almost non-existent.

Hmm, I've heard this request before...

Really the only effective way to deal with a wizard if you have giving melee types a horrible nerf with less magic items is to not let people be spell casters.

[J.Gellert]

If you don't want to outright change mages to the point where they are no longer recognizable as D&D 3,5...

You can nerf them, but if the nerf is too steep then you might as well just remove them (no one will play them), and if the nerf is too light then people will still play them.

It really is hard to find a middle ground, because what supposedly makes casters that powerful is their high-level spells, so you'd have to change entire spell lists...

But honestly? Do it the easy way.

Start your 3.5 campaign at level 1. No house rules, no changes. Tell your players you won't go past level 5. Low-levels are the sweet spot for warrior-types, the spells aren't epic, and magic items are low or non-existent, so there you have it.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Alternatively, do Low Magic settings the other way: Magic isn't less powerful mechanically, but use of magic will get you lynched. Hard. (andfastbehindtheshed)

Magic is rare. It's unknown. It's scary. This is the real world. Old ladies are burned because they're said the be witches, the reclusive nobleman ends up at the wrong end of a pitch-fork, for making deals with the devil (or demons, as it may well be), and any blatant display of arcane power is a good way to get yourself run out of town.

Make life hard on the party RP-wise.

[Akabana_Shin]

You know, I like that idea. That way I don't have to necessarily nerf magic mechanically but with RP (that's a heavy factor in my table.)

I had in mind something like (not exactly) The Lord of the Rings (or even The Wheel of Time) world: there's magic, surely, but its scarce and common people often think of it as myth. And the most powerful magic has been lost for so long that no one remembers about it anymore.

Maybe changing the Wizard spell list as well, limiting its powers if just a bit. I know that at least most of the summoning outsiders spell won't work.

[awa]

If magic is rare, their should be very limited access to new spells so no just buying new spells for wizards. that should weaken them a bit also i don't think spell books are magicaly durable or even water proof unless you pay extra so just falling in a lake could be a potent nerf removing a couple of spells (although this should be pointed out to wizards before you do it otherwise its a bit of a cheap shot. Wizards can pay to get their spell books protected but it can get expensive particularly since magics rare it might cost extra and if your wizards is being forced to spend extra wealth to acquire extra spells and to protect the ones hes got he cant afford to make as many scrolls and wands limiting his ability to always have the right spell for the right encounter. At least at the lower levels by the teens that money is largely a drop in the bucket.

[Swordguy]

Definetely a candidate for E6. Google "D&D E6" - that'll give you results. Short story version, character are limited to 6th level (though they can advance incrementally by purchasing feats etc every 5000 XP past level 6). Wizards will end up with only 1 or 2 3rd level spells per day. Magic beyond that requires items imbued with the spells (and anybody who wants to make magic items gets old-school magic item creation, like the chain that bound Fenris, made of the footstep of a cat; the roots of a mountain; a woman's beard; the breath of fishes; the sinews of a bear; and a bird's spittle).

Oh, regarding Wizards - they get two spells automatically learned per level, from the spells their character - not the player - has available to learn. That way you can control what spells the Wizard has access to; if you want spells, go find a caster's spellbook and pry it out of his dead hands. You'll learn them without a roll, but the magic knowledge doesn't "magically" leap into your skull when you go up a level.

With E6 and banning the more "flashy" classes, you can get about what you're looking for.

[jmbrown]

The best way to make a low magic campaign is to get rid of PC casters completely. If that doesn't work, then modify their spell list to reflect the European medieval depictions of casters. Wizards like Merlin and Hermes Trismegistus were philosophers, prophets, protectors, and seekers of knowledge. Sorcerers like Robert Howard's Tsotha-lanti or Pan Twardowski were far darker and depicted as conjurers of fell beasts, stealers of life, and could change people into animals to eat.

Generally the terms wizard and sorcerer go hand in hand but sorcerer usually carries a darker tone than wizard as it implies innate blood pacts (the earliest writing of Merlin claimed he was the son of an incubus so in D&D terms that makes him a half-fiend).

Basically, limit each caster's spell list by class.

Wizards: abjuration, divination, enchantment, and illusion

Sorcerers: conjuration, evocation, necromancy, and transmutation (give sorcerers the ability to cast protection from ___ spells for the purpose of planar binding).

[Crow]

This could be a good place to post my graded weaponry houserule (spoilered). I started using this because I got tired of handing out +1 swords and such. It was for a low-er magic campaign. Basically, I like the magical loot to be special.

Spoiler

Show

Inferior : -1 to hit and -1 damage
Normal : (normal)
Fine : +1 to hit
Superior : +1 to hit and +1 to damage
Masterwork : +2 to hit and +1 to damage

Optional rule for Inferior weapons : Breaks on an attack roll of "1". So a 5% chance.

Optional rule for all weapons : If a blade is commissioned as a custom piece (rather than picked up from a treasure hoard or something), it gets an additional +1 to hit (on top of all other bonuses). This is because the piece can be specifically sized and balanced for the intended wielder. This bonus only applies to the intended wielder, but can apply to another person if they are of close to the same height/build as the original owner.

The damage bonuses are small because it is hard to make a weapon actually do more damage (that is up to the wielder). It is possible however to make a weapon easier to use, which is why the highest grade gets the +2 to hit.

Crafting modifiers (add to base DC for weapon):

Inferior : -3
Normal : +0
Fine : +4
Superior : +8
Masterwork : +12

Costs:

Inferior : -50%
Normal : (normal)
Fine : +300gp
Superior : +1000gp
Masterwork : +2000gp

I use the same grades for armor as well.

Spoiler

Show

Inferior : -1 AC
Normal : (normal)
Fine : -1 armor check penalty
Superior : +1 AC and -1 armor check penalty
Masterwork : +2 AC and -1 armor check penalty

Optional rule for all armor : If a suit of armor is commissioned as a custom piece (rather than picked up from a treasure hoard or something), it gets an additional -1 armor check penalty (on top of all other bonuses). This bonus only applies to the intended wearer, but can apply to another person if they are of close to the same height/build as the original owner.

Crafting modifiers (add to base DC for armor):

Inferior : -3
Normal : +0
Fine : +4
Superior : +8
Masterwork : +12

Costs:

Inferior : -50%
Normal : (normal)
Fine : +150gp
Superior : +1000gp
Masterwork : +2000gp

[Physics_Rook]

Part of the reason that PCs and NPCs use magic in the first place is because it's much more cost-efficient in terms of risk versus benefit (that is to say, very little risk, and a great deal of benefit).

What you want is to raise the cost of using magic, so it rears it's ugly face less frequently in your campaign. To do this you'll need to either lower the benefits, or raise the risks, and personally I suggest raising the risks.

Be careful when nerfing a powerful ability, mainly because when nerfing a class it can sometimes feel to a PC like being punished for being too good. I prefer leaving the classes alone, and devising ways to make the PCs fear using their abilities to their fullest extent (which can be awesome in and of itself, when they're finally given a chance to really let loose).

I believe that Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll has provided an excellent way to reduce the power of magic without having to nerf the system directly. Through the use of roleplaying he's suggested a way in which to not only raise the risks of using magic (thereby making them more costly to use), but at the same time leave the mechanics of the system itself alone (which solves the problem of re-balancing issues).

Hope this helps.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Two ideas off the top of my head:

1. Spell casters get only one school of magic. This is a pretty hardcore nerf as even the mighty school of conjuration can't do everything. But hardcore nerfing sounds like what your looking for so it's still an idea.

2. The only spellcasting classes available are the adept, and the mage-wright (ECS) This is could actually be more like what you're looking for I think. The strongest spells either ever gets are 5th level, plus one's divine and the other's arcane

[Dixieboy]

How about enforcing spell components?
If they want a spell component they have to go get it themselves. The most common ones they can surely make some young chap of the street get for them for a fee, but no store will sell bat guano.

[Altair_the_Vexed]

Personally, I'd go through the spell lists from the PHB, and remove any spells that I thought would make the setting less directly dangerous.
Then pull in spells from other books that are useful and fit your flavour.

What I'm thinking of is that magic can still produce powerful and useful effects for high level casters without being obvious, and that you don't have to kill your enemy with spells if you can just determine exactly where he is and curse him, or charm others into attacking - in short, edit the spells available to make magic more subtle and less direct, spells can be explained away as coincidence or fluke. No Magic Missiles here!

At a glance, look at the 9th level Wizard list. There's a lot to throw out if things need to be subtle, but you can keep these:

• Freedom
• Mage's Disjunction
• Foresight
• Dominate Monster
• Power Word Kill
• Weird.

Maybe you could include these too (perhaps with some modifications)1:

• Energy Drain
• Astral Projection
• Time Stop

Other spells could be imported from splatbooks and the spell compendium, or you could just leave it at that.

[jmbrown]

How about enforcing spell components?
If they want a spell component they have to go get it themselves. The most common ones they can surely make some young chap of the street get for them for a fee, but no store will sell bat guano.

On the contrary, bat guano has been used as a fertilizer for centuries. Once guns became prevalent in the 16th century it was ground into a fine powder and used as charging powder because of the high sulfur content.

Now how a wizard keeps live spiders... well, alive or how he separates the bajillion valuable gem dust he keeps in his pockets is another story. It would definitely make eschew materials a valuable feat.

[Yahzi]

Alternatively, do Low Magic settings the other way: Magic isn't less powerful mechanically, but use of magic will get you lynched. Hard. (andfastbehindtheshed).

Lynched by who?

The PCs will be secret wizards until they're 9th level or so. Then the lack of magic for NPCs will make the PC wizards unstoppable.

The only real nerf is to make PC wizards impossible to play. Here's my quick and dirty idea: it takes spell level * years to memorize a spell.

Then you can still have occasional magic - and more importantly magic items so the party fighters can face the monsters - but it's all very, very rare.

[dragonfan6490]

On the Homebrew forums there was a base class that someone built for a low magic campaign setting. It only goes up to level 5 spells and gets them at a slower rate than the standard wizard.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...light=magician

[Dixieboy]

On the contrary, bat guano has been used as a fertilizer for centuries. Once guns became prevalent in the 16th century it was ground into a fine powder and used as charging powder because of the high sulfur content.

Now how a wizard keeps live spiders... well, alive or how he separates the bajillion valuable gem dust he keeps in his pockets is another story. It would definitely make eschew materials a valuable feat.

Well I doubt guns are very prevalent in the setting.

The fertilizer bit I did not know though.

Anywho:
Eschew material is banned.
Because weakening casters by only a single feat won't make a difference.

[Evard]

You could always just take the wizard and make a minimum level to get a specific school like until the wizard gets to 15th level they can not take evocation or conjuration spells? Of course this would have to be worked out but you make the indirect damage spells or buffer spells be for lower level mages and the higher level mages actually get to do direct damage.

[Akabana_Shin]

Thanks for the input. I like the spell components enforcement and the limited access to new spells. Also, I don't want to rule out casting completely. I want that option, but as this campaign will be focused a lot on non-magical abilities, I want to balance casting with martial.

How about a backlash effect for every spell beyond certain level? Like 1d6 damage for spell level above 4th?

Well, I'm going to elaborate further, but I see there's a homebrew forum, so I might as well use it before I break any rule.

[GenPol]

I'd go with a combination of the above, enforcing spell components, and making all arcanists widely feared. Obtaining components would be challenging and very illegal, hopefully forcing mages to be even more conservative with using their spells, lest they run out of components.

[Thurbane]

You could tie in spellcasting with the Taint system, a bit like the Wheel of Time.

[The Glyphstone]

Since plenty of people have suggestions on how to implement low-magic, I'll go a different route and be a warning voice as to the possible repercussions, something that should be thought about.

The game's default math, so much as it is, assumes that characters have access to the WBL listed for them in the DMG, and that they spend said wealth on magical weapons and armor to improve their hit rolls and AC. Without those aids, PCs will find it difficult to hit CR-appropriate monsters and very hard to avoid being hit by them. This isn't as much of a problem if all they fight is other humanoid enemies, but that can get a bit boring. The easiest solution to this problem is to provide varying degrees of masterwork items, ranging from standard +1 all the way to legendary-smith-level +5 atk/damage, or differing grades of armor quality on a similar scale, while remaining nonmagical. Use any opponents with DR sparingly, and throw incorporeal enemies out entirely, and you're good to go on that front.

Similarly, a suggestion for world-building: Some people take 'low-magic' to mean that a +2 sword is immensely rare and valuable enough to fight wars over. I disagree...the swords that wars are fought over shouldn't be piddly little weapons, they should be +5 Vorpal Holy Avengers, and treated like the near-unique artifacts that they are. When magic is rare and sparse, magic items should become correspondingly rare and thus correspondingly more valuable.

[Akabana_Shin]

Since plenty of people have suggestions on how to implement low-magic, I'll go a different route and be a warning voice as to the possible repercussions, something that should be thought about.

The game's default math, so much as it is, assumes that characters have access to the WBL listed for them in the DMG, and that they spend said wealth on magical weapons and armor to improve their hit rolls and AC. Without those aids, PCs will find it difficult to hit CR-appropriate monsters and very hard to avoid being hit by them. This isn't as much of a problem if all they fight is other humanoid enemies, but that can get a bit boring. The easiest solution to this problem is to provide varying degrees of masterwork items, ranging from standard +1 all the way to legendary-smith-level +5 atk/damage, or differing grades of armor quality on a similar scale, while remaining nonmagical. Use any opponents with DR sparingly, and throw incorporeal enemies out entirely, and you're good to go on that front.

Similarly, a suggestion for world-building: Some people take 'low-magic' to mean that a +2 sword is immensely rare and valuable enough to fight wars over. I disagree...the swords that wars are fought over shouldn't be piddly little weapons, they should be +5 Vorpal Holy Avengers, and treated like the near-unique artifacts that they are. When magic is rare and sparse, magic items should become correspondingly rare and thus correspondingly more valuable.

You know, I really like the taint idea. Like, magic was common before, but due to the taint it became a lost and forgotten and forbidden art, that just a few dare to master.

On the weapons, I'm working on that. No more flaming and force weapons, but rather well-rare masterwork weapons. I can see Excalibur as a +5 Masterwork Longsword, for example.

[JonestheSpy]

On the weapons, I'm working on that. No more flaming and force weapons, but rather well-rare masterwork weapons. I can see Excalibur as a +5 Masterwork Longsword, for example.

You can actually get a lot of mileage out of this. Call a particularly well-made weapon or peice of armor +1 or even +2, it's just not magic. You give the non-spellcasters stuff that's functionally equivalent to what they'd probably pick up in a "standard" game, it's just not magic. This is completely realistic, btw; weapons made from Damascus steel were regarded as being on a whole different plane than the regular stuff in Medieval Europe, far more than a simple 5% increase chance in hitting that a SRD masterwork weapon has.

Combine that with lack of easy access to wands and scrolls and the like, and spellcaster become a lot less dominating. Definitely enforce the need for specific spell components, and has been mentioned before make sure that wizards are limited to the spells they actually gain per level, and anything else has to come from scolls or other sources that they find, i.e. that you decide to let them have.