A thought on Wizards and Fighters [3.5 D&D]

[Fortuna]

People frequently and accurately point out that wizards are more powerful than fighters. And this is true. They point out that wizards have better utility than fighters. And this is also true. And they point out that wizards scale faster than fighters. And this, too, is true.

But one thing occurs to me: this cannot be the express intention of WoTC. Even if they subliminally hate melee, they must have thought that they were giving them something that might pass for even chances in a very dim light. So what was it?

Fragility? Maybe, but wizards should never be taking damage. That isn't "you aren't optimizing enough," but "you are not playing this class as it was intended to be played."

Damage output? Not likely. Not with maximize and empower out there.

Endurance?

Just possible.

Think about this: at mid-high levels, a wizard goes to sleep with huge numbers of spells left uncast. So why even bother with spell slots? Well, because it gives a nominal limitation.

The question that I put to the playground is this: would it be possible to make the spell slot limits meaningful without losing all the fun of playing wizards etc.? If so, how should it be done?

[Signmaker]

Are you more or less considering an alteration of Vancian-styled casting?

Regardless, I have both a lack of advice and some advice. I can't really make a suggestion, but only suggest that whatever tooling you conclude is suitable, that it be light on book-keeping. Book-keeping is usually one of the banes of a group, and overcomplicating a system in the attempt to fix it can be as harmful as letting it be.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

It can't be endurance. Fighters can't heal enough HP to go at it 24/7.

[Fortuna]

Not necessarily ditching Vance entirely. More thinking along the lines of different spell slot progressions or similar: keeping the idea, but making it work better as a restriction.

[2xMachina]

They are the Wizards of the Coast. Of course they are biased for wizards. Wizards are the gods of D&D because wizards created it.

[Simba]

They are the Wizards of the Coast. Of course they are biased for wizards. Wizards are the gods of D&D because wizards created it.

Wizards did not create it, but that's beside the point.

[Anonymouswizard]

Two ideas:

One: you have memorized 3 fireballs and 1 lightning bolt. Those are your 4 3rd level spells. If you know you need a dispel magic for the next adventure, the town is not going to like you!

Two: have you read dying earth?

Spoiler

Show

Wizards are restricted to one spell level, and have spell slots equal to their level+their intelligence modifier.

Vancian magic needs more Vance.

[2xMachina]

Wizards did not create it, but that's beside the point.

Meh, yeah.

Though I suppose I could say (I think) that 3.5 is WoTC's, and Gygax's wizards are less broken.

[Runestar]

Think about this: at mid-high levels, a wizard goes to sleep with huge numbers of spells left uncast. So why even bother with spell slots? Well, because it gives a nominal limitation.

Spells which probably are useless in a fight anyways. Say I am a 16th lv sorc. Only my higher lv spells (ie: 8th, 7th, maybe 6th) are going to be effective in combat. The rest are likely to be used for utility purposes. You aren't going to be winning fights by plinking enemies with 1st lv magic missiles (too little damage) or charm persons (crappy save dc). They go unexpended usually because you have nothing to spend them on.

I don't think that at mid levels, a wizard can afford to start spamming spells indiscriminately. He may be able to nova if a situation is dire enough, but he likely can't sustain it for more than 1 encounter.

[dsmiles]

I don't know what to say here...I don't use a WotC-approved magic system to begin with. I use the system from BESM: The Slayers d20. It's so much more fun in my high-magic/action-porn 3.5e campaign world. My 4e world is low-magic/high-technology/action-porn, however.

For those who do not have access to this setting:

Spoiler

Show

The caster doesn't have "spell slots," he/she has "spells known slots." Each spell takes up a certain number of these slots. Each spell has an associated Fortitude save DC that the caster must make in order to cast the spell. If the caster fails the save he/she must make a caster level check (called a control check) to see if he/she loses control of the spell. The save DC for the targets is 10 + 1/5 Fort Save DC + Ability modifier for common spells. For specialist spells, the save is 15 + 1/5 Fort Save DC + Ability modifier. I have converted all of the appropriate DnD PHB/S&S spells, and all of the spells from the Mongoose Ultimate Arcane Spellbook, because the spells in The Slayers were setting specific, and there weren't that many for casters to choose from. Also, there is no Divine Magic, it is all Arcane, just from different "power sources." Common spells come from the caster. Sorcery spells come from demons, Shamanist spells come from nature, and White (Clerical) spells come from the gods (but are still considered arcane spells).

EDIT: Also casters take non-lethal damage from casting spells (representing a fatigue-based system). This is what made me use this system in the first place.

[Lysander]

I suppose the reason the wizard/fighter balance breaks down is because the DM is too easy on the party. You have the harry the players, put them in dangerous situations, throw big monsters at them non-stop, so that casters do run out of spells. Players just assume they'll get a good night's sleep every night, and have a peaceful hour in the morning over biscuits and coffee to prepare their magic. Bah! What is this, Continental Breakfast & Dragons? Put them in a goblin filled dungeon where every moment is filled with peril and spells are precious commodities to escape otherwise deadly situations, and monsters don't take breaks at night just so your wizard can get his shut eye. I don't even get eight hours of sleep a night and I'm just some guy, not a legendary hero being pursued by the forces of darkness.

[dsmiles]

I suppose the reason the wizard/fighter balance breaks down is because the DM is too easy on the party. You have the harry the players, put them in dangerous situations, throw big monsters at them non-stop, so that casters do run out of spells. Players just assume they'll get a good night's sleep every night, and have a peaceful hour in the morning over biscuits and coffee to prepare their magic. Bah! What is this, Continental Breakfast & Dragons? Put them in a goblin filled dungeon where every moment is filled with peril and spells are precious commodities to escape otherwise deadly situations, and monsters don't take breaks at night just so your wizard can get his shut eye. I don't even get eight hours of sleep a night and I'm just some guy, not a legendary hero being pursued by the forces of darkness.

+1 to you, sir!

[Choco]

I suppose the reason the wizard/fighter balance breaks down is because the DM is too easy on the party. You have the harry the players, put them in dangerous situations, throw big monsters at them non-stop, so that casters do run out of spells. Players just assume they'll get a good night's sleep every night, and have a peaceful hour in the morning over biscuits and coffee to prepare their magic. Bah! What is this, Continental Breakfast & Dragons? Put them in a goblin filled dungeon where every moment is filled with peril and spells are precious commodities to escape otherwise deadly situations, and monsters don't take breaks at night just so your wizard can get his shut eye. I don't even get eight hours of sleep a night and I'm just some guy, not a legendary hero being pursued by the forces of darkness.

and another +1, so total of +2!

Though, if you must balance fighters and wizards yourself, you would be better off moving to 4th edition. They did a decent enough job at it there.

[kamikasei]

On the other hand, if the party are under that much pressure, how are the fighters healing? If the casters can't use their spells to control the situation - teleporting to safety, rope tricking a good night's sleep, etc. - how are the fighters coping at all?

[Choco]

On the other hand, if the party are under that much pressure, how are the fighters healing? If the casters can't use their spells to control the situation - teleporting to safety, rope tricking a good night's sleep, etc. - how are the fighters coping at all?

Maybe they don't have to. A DM that plays intelligent enemies properly will have them realize (perhaps before they even meet the PC's the first time, via tales of their exploits) that the wizard is the single biggest threat to them, so they will focus all their attacks against the wizard.

[Tyndmyr]

I suppose the reason the wizard/fighter balance breaks down is because the DM is too easy on the party. You have the harry the players, put them in dangerous situations, throw big monsters at them non-stop, so that casters do run out of spells. Players just assume they'll get a good night's sleep every night, and have a peaceful hour in the morning over biscuits and coffee to prepare their magic. Bah! What is this, Continental Breakfast & Dragons? Put them in a goblin filled dungeon where every moment is filled with peril and spells are precious commodities to escape otherwise deadly situations, and monsters don't take breaks at night just so your wizard can get his shut eye. I don't even get eight hours of sleep a night and I'm just some guy, not a legendary hero being pursued by the forces of darkness.

Hah. Who dies first, the front line guy or the one in back?

Why do you assume spells are limited, but hitpoints are not?

Plus, a single reserve feat makes this entire line of reasoning fail, as I can happily spam nukes all day long, every single round for the investment of a single feat.

[Sir Giacomo]

Lysander makes a good point here.
Some related ideas:

- the original playing balance is based on fighters providing protection for the wizard's vulnerability on the one hand and wizards providing buffs and magic to enhance the fighter (and of course, both still fight in their respective ways)
- then, however, the notion spread that wizards with rising levels can just do fine with their spells by themselves and no longer need the fighter for protection. They are now seen just as a weak liability, "meatshields" or "big stupid fighter) no longer worthy buffing at all ("leeching off caster power") or just buffing in a pitying, condescending manner (e.g. Treantmonk's GOD and Logicninja's batman guides for wizard class. As such, the deal is off....
- the reasons behind the spreading notion of wizard uber powers can be and have already been discussed intensively. My hunch is that it has also to do with non-core material favouring wizards more and DMs being too soft on wizards (as Lysander pointed out).

To answer the OP in a nutshell: I do not think that an inherent imbalance was put into the game; rather, a different way to play has evolved for many people.

- Giacomo

[Tyndmyr]

Maybe they don't have to. A DM that plays intelligent enemies properly will have them realize (perhaps before they even meet the PC's the first time, via tales of their exploits) that the wizard is the single biggest threat to them, so they will focus all their attacks against the wizard.

This is why my wizard dresses as a commoner often, and occasionally changes his appearance. There's really no reason you have to make yourself obviously a wizard. Also, not leaving things alive is a great way to minimize tales of exploits.

Of course, stacking miss chances and such gives any caster with a past great ways to deal with being a target as well.

I invite you to find a way to deal with the following persisted set of buffs, taken from my 9th level incantatrix: Fly, Mirror Image, Blur, Prot: Arrows, Shield, Protection against Evil, Vigor, Protection against Good, The four heart buffs. Non persisted buffs that last long the entire day involve permanencied detect magic, Grtr Mage Armor, and the higher version of Resistance from SpC.

Said character is RAW-legal, has been played from level 1 in an actual game, has a wide variety of wands and scrolls on hand together with a reserve feat(lightening), and has 76 hp and 19 AC unbuffed.

[lesser_minion]

Hah. Who dies first, the front line guy or the one in back?

Why do you assume spells are limited, but hitpoints are not?

Plus, a single reserve feat makes this entire line of reasoning fail, as I can happily spam nukes all day long, every single round for the investment of a single feat.

Against mobile, motivated enemies who are willing to use tactics and are aware of which enemy poses the greatest threat?

The biggest threat, unfortunately.

[Choco]

I invite you to find a way to deal with the following persisted set of buffs, taken from my 9th level incantatrix: Fly, Mirror Image, Blur, Prot: Arrows, Shield, Protection against Evil, Vigor, Protection against Good, The four heart buffs. Non persisted buffs that last long the entire day involve permanencied detect magic, Grtr Mage Armor, and the higher version of Resistance from SpC.

Sure, how about an enemy wizard that is 1-3 levels higher than you, with the following persisted set of buffs, taken from your 9th level incantatrix: Fly, Mirror Image, Blur, Prot: Arrows, Shield, Protection against Evil, Vigor, Protection against Good, The four heart buffs. Non persisted buffs that last long the entire day involve permanencied detect magic, Grtr Mage Armor, and the higher version of Resistance from SpC.

I am aware that high level wizards played paranoid enough are completely untouchable, and whenever I have a player that does that I throw something like above against them. When they whine about it, I simply ask them how else I am supposed to provide them a RAW legal challenge. I don't get why players do that, not being challenged can't be all that fun. On the other hand, I also don't get why there are DM's that would push players to do that. Vicious cycle there, and makes those types of DM's and players completely incompatible with other, more lax groups.

EDIT: Or if I get pissed enough, casters after casters that spam Disjunction...

[Tyndmyr]

Against mobile, motivated enemies who are willing to use tactics and are aware of which enemy poses the greatest threat?

The biggest threat, unfortunately.

There is no particular reason a wizard is identifiable as such prior to casting. The two most unique class attributes, a familiar and a spellbook, are generally not taken/visible before battle. Or even used in battle at all, for that matter.

Identifying the caster after he's started casting is dead easy, of course, but by then, it's generally too late.

[Tyndmyr]

Sure, how about an enemy wizard that is 1-3 levels higher than you, with the following persisted set of buffs, taken from your 9th level incantatrix: Fly, Mirror Image, Blur, Prot: Arrows, Shield, Protection against Evil, Vigor, Protection against Good, The four heart buffs. Non persisted buffs that last long the entire day involve permanencied detect magic, Grtr Mage Armor, and the higher version of Resistance from SpC.

You can, in theory, solve any wizard with a higher level wizard using the same build, yes. This proves nothing about the balance of wizards and fighters.

I am aware that high level wizards played paranoid enough are completely untouchable, and whenever I have a player that does that I throw something like above against them. When they whine about it, I simply ask them how else I am supposed to provide them a RAW legal challenge. I don't get why players do that, not being challenged can't be all that fun. On the other hand, I also don't get why there are DM's that would push players to do that. Vicious cycle there, and makes those types of DM's and players completely incompatible with other, more lax groups.

First off, level 9 is not particularily high level. Most would consider that mid-level play.

The entire game is about players preparing to overcome increasingly hard challenges. A good DM uses diversity in challenges, and doesn't simply copy the players build, tack on a couple of levels and call it a day. I too would consider relying on that as your method of "challenging" players to be extremely poor form. The party fighters would also likely be pretty annoyed too.

The DM has access to a wild assortment of stuff, some of which can certainly challenge specific builds, yes. It's not hard to challenge any particular power level....it's hard to challenge a group with very different power levels.

[lesser_minion]

There is no particular reason a wizard is identifiable as such prior to casting. The two most unique class attributes, a familiar and a spellbook, are generally not taken/visible before battle. Or even used in battle at all, for that matter.

Identifying the caster after he's started casting is dead easy, of course, but by then, it's generally too late.

You're aware of their presence, so you can equip yourself to survive at least one spell.

Also, lack of armour is frequently a very big clue, and attracts opponents who are just looking for 'meat'.

[Vizzerdrix]

To answer the OP in a nutshell: I do not think that an inherent imbalance was put into the game; rather, a different way to play has evolved for many people.

This.

On the Subject of attacking the wizard first. THis is why I always "play dress up" with my wizards. I keep them out of robes and in sensible pants and shirts (A light jacket with extra pockets too, with the contents of my SCP in them). Later on, Caster's armor and a set of shortswords to blend in with the melee types (mithral twilight armor and shortswords for Dancing blades spell). Core only, Full plate, a tower shield, and still spell is a fun combination.

Also Grease, web and mirror image are nice and low level and are superb defense spells that leave the higher levels open for problem solving.

[Lysander]

Spells and hp are both limited resources, and have to be used together to maximize their benefit. For any given encounter the players should decide whether it's better to sacrifice health or spells. People always assume the best possible action for a wizard is to cast a spell every round of combat. It's ok to use a crossbow once in a while, hold back on the magic, and kinda suck overall so that when a really big monster comes along, an enemy spellcaster, or a huge crowd of enemies then you can unleash the hellfire.

I think one problem is that many DMs make every battle a boss battle. The players enter at full health with full resources, duke it out with their biggest weapons, then collect the loot and go home. It's ok to have battles against low level weak enemies where the challenges isn't to survive, it's to play smart so you win without using up your resources. The fight can end at any moment if the wizard just drops a level 3 spell, but maybe if they play smart and use the fighters the wizard only has to end up spending a level 1.

[Yukitsu]

I use 25% of my spell slots when I'm level 5 or higher on personal defense, running away or other necessary buffs. I use 1-3 spells per encounter otherwise, tending towards 1 at level 5 and 3 up to 20. In general, this means I use about 40% of my spell slots per day on the standard 4 encounters. On a day with really tough encounters, or more, I can expect to use upwards of 85% total, or 20% more than usual. On an absolute grindfest day, 100% of the time, the none-casters have died, and I was down wealth due to scroll use.

Atrition generally works on damage spam wizards because they are so inefficient. Batman or SoD or SoL wizards don't have that same limitation, because they get so much bang for their buck in combat.

[Tyndmyr]

You're aware of their presence, so you can equip yourself to survive at least one spell.

Also, lack of armour is frequently a very big clue, and attracts opponents who are just looking for 'meat'.

Survive one spell? Well, if I kick off a fifth level SoD, you need to make a DC24 save. If I nuke, I have invisible spell from Cityscape. So, it's not even terribly obvious what Im doing, and unless your monsters come with spellcraft and have LOS to me, they'll have a general lack of information about my tactics. In any case, after one spell, and one round of combat from my party, it's relatively unlikely that they pose any sort of threat to me.

Plus, why would they automatically be aware of a wizard's presence? I'll grant that my hide/move silently isn't great, but when you're flying everywhere, and everything in LOS dies, that's a surprisingly unimportant issue.

Looks at party. The mystic theurge is unarmored. So is the druid/monk. So is the cleric(why, I have no idea). Then we have the rogues in leather armor. They wear clothing over the armor, because, as rogues, they don't want to be obviously bad guys. So no, it's not all obvious who the wizard is.

Besides, it's not like a twilight mithril chain shirt would hurt me at all. I'll probably pick one up eventually, but I blew my gold thus far on other stuff.

[lesser_minion]

If, as an evil overlord, I want to take out a wizard, it's probably going to involve a Dust of Appearance trap of some kind. It wipes out a pretty big slice of core defensive buffs and has no counter or exception in core (I'd allow being incorporeal or being on another plane, but those aren't called out).

That's as an evil overlord, and possibly as a bandit - basically anyone who is used to wizards running into their personal cave complex, killing everyone else, and taking their stuff. I don't do fiat kills.

I would actually expect a wizard to be sensibly dressed in a dungeon - prestigitation or not, are you honestly planning to wear academic dress in what amounts to a sewer?

I generally restrict or ban any totally ridiculous "**** you" combos, which does make the job of challenging wizards a little easier, but it's not like every wizard spell is utterly unstoppable to start with. Contact Other Plane will not tell you that your next fight will begin with a decoy attack by a group of kamikaze goblins.


I certainly don't think that fighters are actually on the same level as wizards, but I think they can have a role. I suspect that the intent was for wizards not to be able to easily avoid being engaged in melee, rather than for them to be low on endurance.

There is also the point that many of the rules were written when MAD meant the cleric used a custom staff instead of a wand.

Survive one spell? Well, if I kick off a fifth level SoD, you need to make a DC24 save. If I nuke, I have invisible spell from Cityscape. So, it's not even terribly obvious what Im doing, and unless your monsters come with spellcraft and have LOS to me, they'll have a general lack of information about my tactics. In any case, after one spell, and one round of combat from my party, it's relatively unlikely that they pose any sort of threat to me.

The enemy as a whole. I won't even bother rolling for the guys you hit the first time - I might not even have to use anything that needs anything but a nat 20 to save against your effects.

The point here is that it is possible to run a wizard into the ground, and that anyone who is used to wizards can probably do so. Magic changes everything. It's ridiculous to assume that an enemy won't be paying attention to what happens and prepare properly for their opponents.

Flying is frequently a big giveaway when the ceiling is only ten feet high, in any event.

[Sir Giacomo]

I invite you to find a way to deal with the following persisted set of buffs, taken from my 9th level incantatrix: Fly, Mirror Image, Blur, Prot: Arrows, Shield, Protection against Evil, Vigor, Protection against Good, The four heart buffs. Non persisted buffs that last long the entire day involve permanencied detect magic, Grtr Mage Armor, and the higher version of Resistance from SpC.

Said character is RAW-legal, has been played from level 1 in an actual game, has a wide variety of wands and scrolls on hand together with a reserve feat(lightening), and has 76 hp and 19 AC unbuffed.

Invitation accepted. As a DM, I would deal with this wizard with what the CR9 monsters and 9th level npcs offer me:
- flying
- spellcasting
- poison
- fighting in total concealment
- missile attacks from magic weapons
- grappling

Also, I am not quite sure how your flying, mirror-imaged wizard can pose as a harmless commoner...

- Giacomo

[Yukitsu]

Invitation accepted. As a DM, I would deal with this wizard with what the CR9 and 9th level npcs offer me:
- flying
- spellcasting
- poison
- fighting in total concealment
- missile attacks from magic weapons
- grappling

Also, I am not quite sure how your flying, mirror-imaged wizard can pose as a harmless commoner...

- Giacomo

-Flying negates non-flying party members, not the flying one with ranged attacks.
-Everyone admits you can beat a caster with a more paranoid caster.
-seriously, try poison. It makes me laugh when my DM uses it.
-Total concealment gained from what? Most of the time, this means neither side is actually fighting.
-Missile attacks are, pound for pound, the lowest damage per hit in the game, and also must bypass dr10/- from heart of earth, as well as several miss chances.
-heart of water makes you immune to grapple.