Let's play "Spot the DMPC".

[Jarawara]

I got totally passed over in the DMPC thread, and I should have known better to try to wade into that one. Way too much intense conversation to be noticed on the sidelines. But still, my question remains... can people viewing my game from the outside tell who within the party is the DMPC, and who would be PC's and NPC's.

Part of the debate in the DMPC thread is the definition of the term, and the other part is the benefits and detriments of having one, but whenever I apply those logics to my own campaign, I keep thinking that I must just be playing an entirely different game than most people. Maybe I'm doing things wrong... or maybe I'm doing them right.

So, if you all would indulge me, I would like to play a little game. It's called: "Spot the DMPC". I'm going to define seven members of the adventuring party, and I want people to guess who's the DMPC amongst them. Then I'd like to see people's opinions on my using a DMPC.

If you'd like, you could also post your own stories of DMPC's, good or bad. Try to keep the thread on the actual characters, and not turn this into a "Kill the DMPC with Fire" thread #217. Thanks.

*~*

1st up we have Leayas Nem Lara. A Kargish Witch/Druid/Monkish type, (I'm not going to get too specific on character classes, as I got lots of homebrewing going on), Leayas is betrothed to another of her kind, Harod Ar-Idas. She joined the party early on, by specific instructions from her mother, the notorious Witch Nisstra (who may very well become the campaign's BBEG someday.

2nd, we have Tugov Morkan Estualgan. "The Morkan's have been serving the Estualgans for generations, and I am no exception!", is one of this warrior's favorite sayings, which he uses to introduce himself (to just about everybody he meets). He leaves out the part of how all the Estualgans have been killed off, which leaves him out of a job.

3rd on the list, Jonich Tarascon. He is often referred to as "Prince" Tarascon, due to his next-in-line status to his older brother Lucag, the leader of the country of Tiatia. Of course, that was before Lucag went mad, and the new warlord Jaran Lyall took over the country. It's kind of a liberating experience, not having to worry about living up to the job that he apparently now will never get.

4th up, Chegrin Leall, distance cousin to the warlord Jaran Lyall, Chegrin did not choose to follow his cousin. His path took a different track, as one day he was gravely injured by a Cayrinshia, and lost an arm. He was saved that day by a priest named Allis, and he found religion. He goes around spreading the gospel of Allis, and is willing to sacrifice his life in her service. And is willing to sacrifice *anyone else's* life in her service.

5th, we have the foreigner, Jarath Von Spelding. The man of many talents, tall and handsome, but lacking any understanding of other people's feelings. He is an experienced adventurer, knowing more of the nuts and bolts of the art of staying alive and warm in hostile terrain, but his actual combat skills seem lacking. Is as likely to wade into a fight with his big-ass sword as he is to use his limited selection of spells. A decent singer. (Not a bard.)

6th, Livia Bearfolt. Daughter of Issac Bearfolt (NPC type) and Hannala Tarascon (sister of Jonich), Livia is a recent addition to the group of travelers. Extensively trained in the staff-fighting techniques her father instituted nation-wide, she instead prefers to learn a new fighting technique, which she learned from her new friend Miranda. (Miranda, by the way, is dating Jarath, but that's quite irrelevant.)

And last, we have Cetra Molari. A priest of Learun, he has recently dabbled in the forbidden dark arts, including the projection of fear effects. This is a bit of an irony, as he himself seems utterly fearless, putting his life in the path of danger without a concern for the consequences. In an earlier roleplay with the warlord Jaran, he inadvertantly demonstrated his fearlessness by stepping out over the edge of the tower wall to reattach a cable pulley. He almost fell, and it was Jaran who doubled over with vertigo, not Cetra. (Cetra's next line was: "Ha, that was close. Hey, what's the matter with you?") An engineering genius, he has designed advanced seige weapons for Jaran, but now he finds he spends more of his time near Chegrin and Jonich... though he actively dislikes both of them.

Honorable mention goes to Issac Bearfolt, (father of Livia), who is much higher level than anyone in the party, is an arrogant son-of-a ...., and is openly demeaning of the party members, and yet somehow ends up being loved by the people. But he doesn't travel with the party, so I guess he can't be a DMPC, right?

So, of those seven members of the party... can you tell me who is the DMPC?

Hint: There is more than one NPC, though only one is properly listed as DMPC.

*~*~*

I'll check back in a little bit, see if I got any responses. I'd be really curious, if people can list who the NPCs/DMPC are, and also what their opinions of them are.

[Tyndmyr]

Backstory alone cannot possibly define a DMPC.

I don't know why you would think it could.

[Saph]

The problem here is that we've only got your descriptions to go on, and they're much too full of backstory. Nothing you've written really tells us much about what your game is like to play in, except possibly by implication.

[dsmiles]

Ummmm....yeah...what she said.

[Lamech]

Not enough information. Try a sample session or some such... a campaign journal with all metagame references scrubbed. (Player names, what each player has learned and so forth... anything that is not included in the game world.)

[Duke of URL]

I don't even have to read it. The answer is simple -- the characters played by the players are PCs. Any character who joins the party played by the DM is a DMPC, and the others are NPCs.

The descriptions are irrelevant. They are the definitions of characters, but do not indicate in any way whether each character is a PC, NPC, or DMPC. It is how they are played at the table the defines that.

[Starbuck_II]

With no other data, I'm likely to make a false prediction. We need combat data, roleplay, etc.
It is not who they were but what they do that makes a DMPC.
but:

Jarath Von Spelding or Cetra Molari
1) Jarath sounds mary sue-ish, but he does possess a few flaws like few combat skills and no empathy. Though, it could easily be a PC as well.

2) Cetra due to fearless trait (outside of as Pally) I've seen many a DMPC, but then PCs can do that as well.

But need more data.

[Lamech]

I don't even have to read it. The answer is simple -- the characters played by the players are PCs. Any character who joins the party played by the DM is a DMPC, and the others are NPCs.

The descriptions are irrelevant. They are the definitions of characters, but do not indicate in any way whether each character is a PC, NPC, or DMPC. It is how they are played at the table the defines that.

What is commonly meant by DMPC on this board is not so simple. If a princess joins the party because the characters are being paid to rescue her and ever so slightly end up deep in the plane of shadow, and the princess is rather useless (well at least deep in the plane of shadow), and the party decides to keep her around thats not a DMPC. If the princess one shots the BBEG and then teleports them out of deep shadow and then stops an invading army, then kills a party member who annoyed her then one has a DMPC.

[Assassin89]

All of the characters you listed are NPCs. The assignment of DMPC is arbitrary since any of the descriptions could fit. 1, 2, 5, 6, and 7 look suspicious due to notes, but they could still be NPCs with better descriptions.

[Serpentine]

If a princess joins the party because the characters are being paid to rescue her and ever so slightly end up deep in the plane of shadow, and the princess is rather useless (well at least deep in the plane of shadow), and the party decides to keep her around thats not a DMPC. If the princess one shots the BBEG and then teleports them out of deep shadow and then stops an invading army, then kills a party member who annoyed her then one has a DMPC.

And if the princess turns out to be a Ranger of comparable power to and with the same build restrictions as the rest of the party, is useful without overshadowing any of the other characters, and is as much a party member as any other character?
It's not an either/or situation. It's not "useless lump that sits in a corner" or "overpowering super-Sue". So where do the middle bits fit in?

[Lamech]

And if the princess turns out to be a Ranger of comparable power to and with the same build restrictions as the rest of the party, is useful without overshadowing any of the other characters, and is as much a party member as any other character?
It's not an either/or situation. It's not "useless lump that sits in a corner" or "overpowering super-Sue". So where do the middle bits fit in?

That would also probably fall in the NPC catagory, I was making two simple examples... it probably depends on who you ask. I don't think everyone has the same defenition of DMPC. I think the common defenition on these boards (and I'm no more qualified then you, Serp, to make this call) is a problem NPC who travels with the party.

Also on a side note in a game of rolemaster I played we had a ranger much like the one you described (though not a princess). Ironically she later became more powerful after I made her take the divine power-up...

[Duke of URL]

What is commonly meant by DMPC on this board is not so simple. If a princess joins the party because the characters are being paid to rescue her and ever so slightly end up deep in the plane of shadow, and the princess is rather useless (well at least deep in the plane of shadow), and the party decides to keep her around thats not a DMPC. If the princess one shots the BBEG and then teleports them out of deep shadow and then stops an invading army, then kills a party member who annoyed her then one has a DMPC.

Then the definition is wrong. A "DMPC" is a player character (contributing member of a party) played by the DM. It can be used in a negative connotation as you note, but that's not the definition of DMPC, but rather a specific subgenre of DMPC referred to as "Mary Sue/Marty Stu".

The definition of what a DMPC is is completely independent from whether or not it's a good thing and if it is played properly.

[Tyndmyr]

*groan*

We don't need the definition argument to spill over to yet another thread, do we?

I'm fine with the idea of testing people's ability to detect a DMPC from actual campaign journal's and the like, provided enough info is given. However, I think taking this into a hypothetical realm isn't really going to be different than the last umpteen threads on the subject.

[Darcand]

And if the princess turns out to be a Ranger of comparable power to and with the same build restrictions as the rest of the party, is useful without overshadowing any of the other characters, and is as much a party member as any other character?
It's not an either/or situation. It's not "useless lump that sits in a corner" or "overpowering super-Sue". So where do the middle bits fit in?

Still a DMPC. If she's doing anything a PC could be doing then she's a DMPC.

[Choco]

That would also probably fall in the NPC catagory, I was making two simple examples... it probably depends on who you ask. I don't think everyone has the same defenition of DMPC.

Which is why there is a neverending argument about that. Though luckily it seems to be mostly contained in one thread at the moment

A DMPC to me, in the most literal interpretation of the word (DM's Player Character), is:

1. A permanent member of the party, played by the DM,
2. That shares in the loot,
3. The XP,
4. And the decision making process, as well as being
5. A participant in combat with the PC's, thus resulting in
6. Glory either being stolen from or simply shared with the PC's.

That being said, a good DMPC is still a DMPC and not an NPC. If the party wants to keep an NPC permanently in the party, that NPC has basically become elevated to DMPC status in my opinion.

EDIT: dsmiles does have a point, changed last 2 points.

[dsmiles]

Maybe we need a "Let's Play: Define DMPC" thread so we can find an acceptable definition of the term (before we have any more "discussion" on whether they work or not, and/or how they can be detrimental and/or beneficial)?

EDIT: I agree with Choco, to a point. The first few points are good, but the last two need some help, IMO. I'm willing to accept that a DMPC isn't necessarily more effective than a PC and doesn't always steal the spotlight.
However, in my experience, they usually do, and this is why I don't like to play in a game with them.

[Choco]

Maybe we need a "Let's Play: Define DMPC" thread so we can find an acceptable definition of the term (before we have any more "discussion" on whether they work or not, and/or how they can be detrimental and/or beneficial)?

That will go as well and be over as quickly as the current DMPC thread.

arguing about DMPC's seems to be like arguing about religion or abortion or politics or anything else that is banned on these forums. Neither side will give in no matter what the other side says.

Whatever you are looking for you will find it, so there will always be reasons why you are right and your opponent is wrong

[Another_Poet]

I found the DMPC:

Chegrin Leall

edit: am I right?

[Anonymouswizard]

We have the foreigner, Jarath Von Spelding. The man of many talents, tall and handsome, but lacking any understanding of other people's feelings. He is an experienced adventurer, knowing more of the nuts and bolts of the art of staying alive and warm in hostile terrain, but his actual combat skills seem lacking. Is as likely to wade into a fight with his big-ass sword as he is to use his limited selection of spells. A decent singer. (Not a bard.)

And we have Cetra Molari. A priest of Learun, he has recently dabbled in the forbidden dark arts, including the projection of fear effects. This is a bit of an irony, as he himself seems utterly fearless, putting his life in the path of danger without a concern for the consequences. In an earlier roleplay with the warlord Jaran, he inadvertantly demonstrated his fearlessness by stepping out over the edge of the tower wall to reattach a cable pulley. He almost fell, and it was Jaran who doubled over with vertigo, not Cetra. (Cetra's next line was: "Ha, that was close. Hey, what's the matter with you?") An engineering genius, he has designed advanced seige weapons for Jaran, but now he finds he spends more of his time near Chegrin and Jonich... though he actively dislikes both of them.

These are the two I say are the most likely, one is a jack-of-all trades who would of been built to make sure that they did not outshine the others (I am basing assumptions on all characters are the same level), and the other one has more detailed description, and could of been made as the DM never gets to play but has an interesting, evolving character concept.

I would go with Cetra, due to the mention of the possibly fudged roll, except that DMs would forget about their own DMPC during roleplaying so they have to do less voices. I'll guess that it is:

Jarath Von Spelding

[valadil]

A DMPC is not inherently distinguishable from other PCs nor is it inherently detrimental to a game. A DM who favors a PC is likely to be detrimental to a game, and is something that can be spotted from afar. ie, the character who never gets attacked and always gets the loot he wants while the rest of the group gets an eclectic mix of weapons they don't know how to use. When it's a DM's own PC who recieves favoritism, then you've got the kind of DMPC that makes the rest look bad and leaves players with a desire to either kill it with fire or nuke it from orbit.

I will decline to comment on the likelihood of a DM being the type who uses DMPCs while also being the type who shows favoritism at the expense of the PCs. Even if I did comment on that, I'd be basing it solely in my own experience with a couple dozen players from the greater boston area - not a sufficient sample size to draw any conclusion.

[DabblerWizard]

The problem here is that we've only got your descriptions to go on, and they're much too full of backstory. Nothing you've written really tells us much about what your game is like to play in, except possibly by implication.

Saph - Since the OP means for us to analyze his character narratives, it might be better to suggest that we could understand his descriptions only through inference as opposed to implication. In other words, the situation we're in, is such that we're stuck with figuring out what he's implying, while our job is to infer his meaning, or to infer from his implication. Just a thought.

~ ~ ~

Stepping beyond semantics for a moment, I find Duke of URL's comment interesting... and I talk about it, and my thoughts on DMPCs, in the spoiler.

Spoiler

Show

... the characters played by the players are PCs. Any character who joins the party played by the DM is a DMPC, and the others are NPCs.

The descriptions are irrelevant. They are the definitions of characters, but do not indicate in any way whether each character is a PC, NPC, or DMPC. It is how they are played at the table the defines that.

^^ I like this point.

NPCs and PCs have internal significance. It's probably commonly stated that PCs should be cooler (or more significant) than a NPC. I agree. The focus of the game is the player character, not the backstage antagonist fabricated in the mind of the DM. So, it's not a bad definition that any NPC that overshadows the PCs, or in other words, receives this overpowering special attention and detail from the DM, is a DMPC.

Yet, we all know how the quarrel goes. "I never make my DMPC more important than the PCs... I do it only because I want to help the PCs in a bind..." ad infinitum.

Why an NPC is significant, and how much bravado they end up oozing, might tell us a lot about their stance on the NPC-DMPC axis.

One might also depend on the screen time a NPC receives, but like with the other definitions, it's not fool proof. An NPC can have a lot of screen time without being dominating, or annoying to the PCs.

I also hope the OP ends his foreshadowing and lets us in on his DMPC intuitions.

[Edit]

Here's a side comment for Choco.

Spoiler

Show

That will go as well and be over as quickly as the current DMPC thread.

arguing about DMPC's seems to be like arguing about religion or abortion or politics or anything else that is banned on these forums. Neither side will give in no matter what the other side says.

Whatever you are looking for you will find it, so there will always be reasons why you are right and your opponent is wrong

^^ There's a great Stuart Chase quote that neatly sums up what you're saying.

“For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible.”

[Saph]

Maybe we need a "Let's Play: Define DMPC" thread so we can find an acceptable definition of the term (before we have any more "discussion" on whether they work or not, and/or how they can be detrimental and/or beneficial)?

Yeah, it's hard to define. Mine would be:

• DMPC (dee-em-pee-cee) - Basic

Acronym for the Dungeon Master's Player Character. Frequently perjorative.

• DMPC (dee-em-pee-cee) - Detailed

A character who exhibits many of the traits of a PC but who is controlled by the DM. Can be distinguished from a PC or an NPC by possessing the following three qualities:

1. Controlled by the DM.
2. Important to the story.
3. DM identifies with and has an emotional investment in them.

Distinguishing an NPC from a DMPC can be difficult. In general the key difference between the two is quality 3 - emotional investment. A quick way to tell if an NPC is a DMPC is to ask the question "Would the DM let one of the PCs kill it?" If the answer's yes, it's not a DMPC. If the DM responds with shock, anger, and resentment, and does everything he can to keep the character alive, it's a DMPC.

For this reason, DMPCs are widely disliked. DMs are supposed to be impartial, and having a character around all the time that the DM favours is not a good thing. It doesn't always make for a bad game, but it often does.

Alternate Definition: DMPC is sometimes used to mean "any NPC who hangs around the party on a regular basis". Used this way, the label of DMPC covers everyone from henchmen to torchbearers to drivers to pets. This definition doesn't have much to do with the acronym (Dungeon Master's Player Character), and as such is the source of most DMPC arguments (one party is using one definition, one's using the other).

• DMPCs - Distinguishing Features

DMPCs almost always possess at least one, and usually more, of the following characteristics:

• They accompany the party everywhere, even if the party specifically tries to get rid of them.
• They're more powerful than any of the PCs, and often more powerful than the whole party put together.
• They break the rules somehow, having special abilities that the PCs and other NPCs can't possibly have. Bonus points if the abilities are unique. Additional bonus points if the uniqueness of the abilities is a major plot point.
• The DM thinks the character is incredibly interesting, and will describe them at length to anyone who'll listen.
• They have special protection from death. The DM will fudge rolls, load them down with extra powers, or outright cheat to keep them from dying.
• The DM loves them, while at least half of the players secretly hate them and wish they would die. The DM is usually oblivious of this dislike, and if he ever comes to realise it, his first response will be surprise that everyone else doesn't find the character as cool as he does.
• They contribute more than any other PC to the overall progression of the story. In extreme cases the PCs effectively become their entourage.

• Examples of DMPCs

- Gandalf from DM of the Rings.
- R2D2 from Darths and Droids (while Pete was DMing).
- Elminister from most games or stories that include him.

[dsmiles]

Yeah, it's hard to define. Mine would be:

• DMPC (dee-em-pee-cee) - Basic

Acronym for the Dungeon Master's Player Character. Frequently perjorative.

• DMPC (dee-em-pee-cee) - Detailed

A character who exhibits many of the traits of a PC but who is controlled by the DM. Can be distinguished from a PC or an NPC by possessing the following three qualities:

1. Controlled by the DM.
2. Important to the story.
3. DM identifies with and has an emotional investment in them.

Distinguishing an NPC from a DMPC can be difficult. In general the key difference between the two is quality 3 - emotional investment. A quick way to tell if an NPC is a DMPC is to ask the question "Would the DM let one of the PCs kill it?" If the answer's yes, it's not a DMPC. If the DM responds with shock, anger, and resentment, and does everything he can to keep the character alive, it's a DMPC.

For this reason, DMPCs are widely disliked. DMs are supposed to be impartial, and having a character around all the time that the DM favours is not a good thing. It doesn't always make for a bad game, but it often does.

Alternate Definition: DMPC is sometimes used to mean "any NPC who hangs around the party on a regular basis". Used this way, the label of DMPC covers everyone from henchmen to torchbearers to drivers to pets. This definition doesn't have much to do with the acronym (Dungeon Master's Player Character), and as such is the source of most DMPC arguments (one party is using one definition, one's using the other).

• DMPCs - Distinguishing Features

DMPCs almost always possess at least one, and usually more, of the following characteristics:

• They accompany the party everywhere, even if the party specifically tries to get rid of them.
• They're more powerful than any of the PCs, and often more powerful than the whole party put together.
• They break the rules somehow, having special abilities that the PCs and other NPCs can't possibly have. Bonus points if the abilities are unique. Additional bonus points if the uniqueness of the abilities is a major plot point.
• The DM thinks the character is incredibly interesting, and will describe them at length to anyone who'll listen.
• They have special protection from death. The DM will fudge rolls, load them down with extra powers, or outright cheat to keep them from dying.
• The DM loves them, while at least half of the players secretly hate them and wish they would die. The DM is usually oblivious of this dislike, and if he ever comes to realise it, his first response will be surprise that everyone else doesn't find the character as cool as he does.
• They contribute more than any other PC to the overall progression of the story. In extreme cases the PCs effectively become their entourage.

• Examples of DMPCs

- Gandalf from DM of the Rings.
- R2D2 from Darths and Droids (while Pete was DMing).
- Elminister from most games or stories that include him.

In the other thread, I used the term "has a vested interest in," which your point #3 covers in terms that everyone can understand, instead of just people who have access to Merriam-Webster 24/7 (I only used it after there was some debate over the definition of "vested interest").

I absolutely agree with your definition, though. Because DMPCs aren't inherently bad, but I personally don't like them because of bad experiences. Many people feel that DMPC can only be used in a negative sense, but if PCs are capable of not stealing the spotlight from other PCs, then DMPCs (being PCs controlled by the DM) must by definition be capable of not stealing the spotlight.

[Gnaeus]

I absolutely agree with your definition, though. Because DMPCs aren't inherently bad, but I personally don't like them because of bad experiences. Many people feel that DMPC can only be used in a negative sense, but if PCs are capable of not stealing the spotlight from other PCs, then DMPCs (being PCs controlled by the DM) must by definition be capable of not stealing the spotlight.

I'm not sure I agree with your characterization of the anti-DMPC argument. I, and I think most of the anti DMPC posters from the other thread, wouldn't say that they can only be used in a negative sense. I would say that the practice contains inherent risks to a game which always or almost always outweigh any benefits it brings to the table. Very very few of us (I think) would say that they can't be used well, only that there are other, less problematic tools in the DM toolbag that should be used instead.

Also, stealing the spotlight isn't the only risk. There are also rules favoritism, metagaming, and railroading concerns, either real or in the perception of the players. Their use as a railroading tool is common enough to be added to Saph's definition, although that might be included in "contributing more than PCs to progression of the story."

[Mystic Muse]

The monk witch is a DMPC is my prediction.

[dsmiles]

I was actually referring to the term DMPC, and the fact that most users of that term only use it to indicate a bad DMPC, and use the term NPC to indicate a good DMPC.

[Jayabalard]

I'm not sure I agree with your characterization of the anti-DMPC argument.

IT's not a "characterization of the anti-DMPC argument" ... it a "characterization of AN anti-DMPC argument"

[Danin]

You see, the problem with just providing descriptions is that sometimes the character's back story is wonderful but the mechanics are unbalanced. For example:

Logan: Foreman at a logging camp after leaving the security business.

Jesher: Retired druid adventurer. Quit the business young to help raise his grand daughter.

Riddick: Head of security at the logging camp and practitioner of the dark arts.

Jareth: Second in command of security, filled with a strong sense of duty and morality.

What those descriptions fail to point out is that Logan, the 4th level fighter, Riddick, the 4th level shadowcaster and Jareth, the 4th level paladin became the sidekicks of Jesher, the 18th level druid who decided to help us on our quest.

Yeah, this actually happened.

[Jarawara]

Well, in my very roundabout way, I got my point across. Namely, that we still don't have a clear consensus as to what 'DMPC' actually stands for.

Some people are using to say "The DM's PC', but even that's not very clear.

Some are saying an NPC who travel's with the party is a DMPC, but that includes hirelings and packbearers. And of course, the DM's PC might not travel with the party, only show up now and then.

Some of course use it as a derogatory term, which is fine, but that pretty much removes all other connotations. Then it's just a Mary-or-Marty Sue, to which my Issac Bearfolt might apply (arrogant and demeaning, strong enough to beat up a PC, yet loved by the people)... but he doesn't travel with the party, is not my PC, and rarely even has screen time. (In fact, he's there to get the party to hate him, but learn to use his talents wisely to train the populace for war.)

There's an ever-growing criteria for the DMPC, not all of which is consistant between people, and quite frankly, shouldn't be. I humbly suggest we should quit using the term. If it's a Mary-or-Marty Sue, call it that. If it's a bad DM, call him that. If it's a PC to play D&D, happens to be run by the DM, call it a PC. If it's a storyline character that travels with the party, call it an NPC. Just don't call anything DMPC, because everyone else has got a different definition that you have.

As for the various guesses, two seem relatively correct...

*~*

Several guessed the DMPC:

Jarath Von Spelding is a former PC of mine, in several previous campaigns. I ported him over to my own campaign to continue a quest he had been on. I fully intend for his quest to eventually become the party's quest. Jarath is the only one I would consider using plot-armor on, but only so he lasts long enough for people to learn what he's come to understand, so that others can be warned about what I've got coming down the pike.

However, once that 'Jarath's quest' storyline gets going... Jarath is not technically needed to complete that quest. If he dies in the execution of that quest (or for that matter, in any other side-activity along the way), then so be it. I brought him into my campaign to *complete his story*... and death is certainly a completion.

I'm with Serpentine on a critical point: If somebody killed Jarath just because they didn't like me using a DMPC - then I'll overrule it, kick them to the curb, and continue play as if they hadn't been there. But if Jarath screws up, or is about to open the gates of hell (intentionally or by accident, either way), and the PC's find they need to kill him - then go for it! Jarath's story is over. Jarath's quest is now yours - you've just inherited it.

Incidentally, Jarath was only supposed to do a cameo in Tiatia, to preview a later phase of the campaign world. It was the players who asked him to join, and rooked him into 'helping these poor commoners in need'. If they hadn't pulled the 'civilians-in-distress' card on him, he'd have been long gone by now. Instead, he's still along for the ride, to shine in his own right.

And shine he does... for the 2.7 seconds he usually lasts in a fight, until the PC's figure out that all he has in his spell list is Jump, Spider Climb, Push, and Shocking Grasp. And while he does have that big-ass sword always at his side, he's a full up wizard - so barging into the fight doesn't do him so well.

The players have learned to keep him safely in the back, where he can do the least harm...

But yes, he's my PC, and I'm the DM, therefore, he's the DMPC.

*~*

The second guess that was close was from Assassin89: Namely, that all of them are NPC's. Well, he was mostly correct.

Livia Bearfolt, daughter of the aformentioned arrogant basta... Issac Bearfolt, is actually a PC. Funny story about that, the player wanted to bring in a new character, and said "Can I play Issac's daughter?" To which I replied: "Uh... Issac has a daughter?... (blink, blink)... why of course you can play Issac's daughter. Stat her up!"

It's worked really well to have so many connections between the PC's and the townsfolk. That way, when such-and-such town is in dire need of help, I don't have to worry about apathetic players. After all, it's not just some families in danger... it's the player's mother and father that is beset by demonic terrors!

But as for the rest of them - yeah, they're all NPCs.

If you want to know who the player characters are:

**As just mentioned, Livia Bearfolt.
**The warlord Jaran Lyall, who overthrew the government and deposed Lucag Tarascon (brother of Jonich)
**The priestess Allis Milambor, who saved Chegrin's life (and now has him as an devoted follower).
**Harod Ar-Idas, of the Kargish hills. Leayas was sent to join the party by her mother Nisstra, due to a long plot to seize power in the hills. Nisstra needed Harod's assistance to do that. Leayas was sent to seduce him. It worked too well, and now Leayas and Harod are getting married, and Nisstra's been shown the curb.
**And Jarath's girlfriend Miranda Aen Darion, who's teaching Livia a new fighting style she brought with her from the northlands. She's the one who convinced Jarath to stick around, though she believes it's due to love. I hope I can let her down easy...

*~*

And this brings up another of the key disconnects I've had with the whole DMPC discussion. People keep talking about the DM having *a* NPC who travels with the party, and whether or not that consitutes a DMPC or just an NPC. Some say that if the NPC is consistantly with the party, and has dialog and personality, then it's a DMPC (who must be killed with fire).

Jeesh... if so, then much of the populace of Tiatia is going to be getting uncomfortably warm. Because, as you can see, I have a party of 5 PC's, but 6 other NPC's accompanying them. And that's just currently - if I included in the list those who traveled with them (and fought in battles, roleplayed, and so on), then I have to include Marcel, Brucian, Goroth & Vesemi, Elrood, Cal, several townsfolk from both Vhomlette and Marais... and a few Kobolds...

And of course, I didn't include Jaran's staff. He took over the army and then the country. You don't just run things single-handedly. So include Thocul, Hiln, Garion, that guy who I can never remember who leads the slave-soldiers they liberated, and of course Issac Bearfolt himself. And then members of the Jaran-appointed civilian government. And heck, how about a couple of thousand nameless mooks, who I still seem to get around to naming and providing roleplay scenes.

We have "DMPC's", in our campaign, because that's how we roleplay - by developing the personalities and then letting the PC's interact with them. You can't very well do those interactions in a vacume, so yeah, some of those guys come along on the 'adventures', in order to allow for further roleplays and interactions.

I think that the anti-DMPC crowd would have an instant head-stroke if they joined my game, outnumbered as they are by so many apparent DMPC's. But to my players, it's a party of five, with assistance.

*~*~*

Just to make an already long post longer, I thought I'd give an example of what the purpose of some of these NPC's are, and how they came to be. I'll use the example of Cetra Molari, as some of you thought he sounded like a DMPC (being fearless, and some referenced the dialog he had in a roleplay scene). He's also been with the party the longest, joining the party before they even left town the first day.

Though he did have a long stint in Hell (literally, not an analogy), after he tried to kill Jaran and Allis. The players try not to dwell on the past. But I get ahead of myself...

I include NPC's as being available to the party, both as combat assistance, but also as specialty-support. It's up to the party to learn how to put their unique talents to best use. In the case of Cetra, he's not really that good in a fight, though he is reliable (fearless). That fearless quality is even better when a dangerous task needs to be done, and Cetra is willing to do it without a consideration for his own well-being.

Case in point, when they had to rescue a guy who had fallen partially down the side of the cliffwall overhanging the marshlands. Jaran usually takes the lead in any dangerous situation... but he's got a serious fear of heights. But Cetra? 1000 feet up is no different than being 10 feet up. Just don't fall, and you'll be fine. Cetra got the rope down to the guy, and they pulled him up with no problems.

But the players have to go get Cetra, and ask him to climb down there to affect the rescue. Cetra isn't much the hero type, and is often busy with other things. The players have to think "How can we best tackle this issue. Hey, let's get Cetra, he can handle this no problem, while we can continue to fight the attacking warriors" (I should have pointed out this rescue was during a fight scene). If the players don't pay attention to the unique talents, as presented in various roleplays (why do you think I have all the 'interaction opportunities', so you can learn what these talents are!)... then too bad for them, they gotta figure out another way.

Cetra is also an engineering genius, which was really just an afterthought. I had no idea he's last this long... and I had no idea that Jaran was going to turn my campaign world on it's ear by overthrowing the government and sending the army off to war. But once again, they remembered that little tidbit about Cetra, and a short while later, seige weapons galore!

Interestingly enough, my original notes on Cetra read "Plan to kill this guy off, the first time the players do something stupid or lax, in order to show that this can be a deadly game, and that the PC's shouldn't let the NPC's just wander into a dangerous situation. (That's where the PC's should be leading the way!)."

Instead, it was Vesemi who walked towards the big animated golem-statue with the oversized maul held up high. I gave full warning, full description of the statue. Any player worth his salt would give that statue a wide berth... but the NPC's don't know anything about that. It's up to the players to keep watch of the NPC's actions. I gave ample description and ample opportunity for them to intervene, and when they kept up their own little investigations of pictographs and discarded trash on a shelf... I had the statue animate and attack, and Vesemi was crushed in one blow.

They didn't make that mistake again. And as such, Cetra survived. And then... a campaign's worth of roleplay happened, and the Lord of Darkness came, and now Cetra's a preist all right - of the Dark Lord. Which is why he doesn't really like the companions he's traveling with, as they're all Learun fanatics. This could turn ugly...

Some of the others are far less elaborate. They meet a Goblin. The Goblin's trapped. He's got a nice looking sword (a pair of them, in fact). They could kill the goblin and take the swords. They could free the goblin but take the swords as payment. They do neither. They free the goblin from the trap, ask him some questions (gotta learn more about the campaign world), and then let him go, swords and all.

Later, when they encounter him again, he's inclined to be helpful. They ask him if he's like to accompany them. And seeing that he's got nowhere else to go, Tugov Morkan Estualgan joins to the party.

Help someone out, and you could find yourself being helped in return. He's theirs, till death or storyline do they part. Nothing else needed to know about him, though I like getting to roleplay a goblin now and then.

*~*~*

So thanks to everyone for participating. Anyone else got any NPC stories to tell, so we can all debate as to whether or not they were actually DMPCs?

[lsfreak]

I agree 99% with Saph, with one exception. Or rather, something that needs clarification.

If the DM responds with shock, anger, and resentment, and does everything he can to keep the character alive, it's a DMPC.

As long as the DM stays in the rules, *every* character - DMPC or PC or NPC or BBEG or worthless minion - should be played that way, and it's a bit unfair to call out the DMPC specifically. And oftentimes, the DM may be shocked or at least thrown off by who the PC's attack, if not angry or resentful.

When you adjust that statement to include 'even going beyond the rules,' then I'd often agree when the character in question is 'supposed' to be on the PC's side or is neutral. I'm okay with DM's keeping some enemies alive longer than they should for the sake of drama or not making something unduly anticlimactic, provided they know how to pull it off.

I'd also say that if arbitrary consequences are given to the PC's as a result of killing a character, it's probably a DMPC. An investigation into the murder of a paladin is warranted, a trio of solars swarming a bunch of level 10 PC's is not.